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My Final Word on President Trump.

Forgive me for not responding. I mainly do my debating during slow moments at work and I am off this week. I will return to this conversation later, but you've given me much to think about. Thank you.
Beauty of a message board. I am not around much either till later next week where I was thinking might expand this quite a bit in a new thread as it might be intresting to talk an actually helpful government economic policy for the 99% which no one is currently pitching from my pov. Seems a lot of people think it's either "lower social spending and tax cuts" or "big daddy government expansion with subsidies and rediculous high taxes"and seem to miss the true pains of both especially the later: we need tax stability, income mobility etc . I'd love to have thoughtful feedback on my thoughts. So hopeful you've got some time and interest when your back.
 
"Besides, if you think she was running on equally vague platitudes. Then you are as blind as you claim that I am"
What are you trying to say?
You've just repeated the same RW talking point again. Hillary had a plan. Donald Trump did not. "I'm going to defeat ISIS so fast...Fix healthcare, it'll be easy...negotiate peace, easy."
These are facts.

You know you just admitted that he had a plan right?
Because plenty of presidential candidates have come out with just as much, or even less, and we all know he stood for more than that.

I am sitting here, telling you blatantly how it was going down, and you're only response nearly every time is a logical fallacy.

And by the by, that was a typo, but unfortunately the site does not allow me to edit it after the window has passed. I was supposed to say, If you think she wasn't running on equally vague platitudes because I sat through more then enough of her speeches to know she was doing just as bad as Trump was.

To reiterate as so you will not get my point misconstrued again.
I chose Trump because the Democrats failed. They failed to have a real plan, save for two of the other candidates, and they failed to have a real message besides the whole He will not be president crap. Even Bernie lost it during one of his own damn speeches, yelling into the mic That man will not be president Do you think for a second that anyone who acted like that on stage, and on the air without real reason, except to just lose their composure would have any real credit in the long run. The only reason Trump could get away with it, was because he was a television personality to begin with, even before the campaign started.

Then you had people on the far left coming out in droves, protesting, assaulting people who were just trying to leave the speeches. Not to mention all of the brow beating, and straw manning, and completely racist/bigoted things that even whites were getting into. If the result of election night did not show people how emotionally stunted all them were, then they were blind to the truth of things well before the election began.

I actually owe up to my choice, my decision was final. The US is doing better, and the economy is actually kicking back up again. Though we cannot attribute all of those things to Donald himself.

And if he really screws up, I will own up to that too, but as of now he has yet to do so. Despite what is getting shoved down peoples throats these days.
 
You know you just admitted that he had a plan right?
Because plenty of presidential candidates have come out with just as much, or even less, and we all know he stood for more than that.

His plan was vague platitudes. That was my point.
Define "screws up" and I will be happy to make a signature bet with you.
 
His plan was vague platitudes. That was my point.
Define "screws up" and I will be happy to make a signature bet with you.

Hmmm define "screw ups" okay.

Something done by an entire political party (i.e democrats) that ends up losing them a democratic election against what should have been an easy opponent.

-See Hillary Clinton Campaign 2016-
 
So hopeful you've got some time and interest when your back.

So to your main point about needing supply side interventions, I agree supply side theory has its merits and is absolutely useful in the right situations. The issue with its use here is that the 2008 financial crisis was not a supply side problem. It was a demand problem from which we never bounced back. I think our economy is in a transition period right now so its a little difficult to say what the best route forward right now would be because I don't think anyone knows where we are going right now. Record stock market prices, record profits, low wages, low worker particaption, no market correction in a year, Price to earnings ratios rather high, job growth solid but not stellar, economic growth mediocre. We are in unfamiliar territory I think.

My overly simplistic arguments against this being a supply side issue:

Corporations have been making record profits for nearly a decade and all over the world they are sitting on their cash. Yes, this has a lot to do with some dumb tax policies, but it is also a reluctance to invest. Key point: Our job creators have plenty of cash and are not doing anything with it.

Interest rates are staying steady at Low despite year after year of job growth and economic growth that is relatively good compared to the rest of the large economies of the world. Key point: Money is availabe to invest if you want it, but investment is weak.

Wage growth is weak despite record corporate profits and full employment for our labor participation rate at least.

Inflation has been low to non existent for nearly a decade again despite low interest rates and record profits.


Add this to the fact that wage and wealth growth has been exponentially higher for the top 10% of the income brackets and I have A LOT of trouble seeing how this reality is calling for supply side intervention.

This current low growth environment is mostly a product of poor demand. The recovery period was so prolonged because we had 4 years where total consumer debt fell and it JUST reached its 2008 level this March. This has never happened before after a recession.


Look at the chart of consumer spending. You see it drop sharply in 2008 and 2009 and then it starts back up again at a slower rate than before but there is no bounce back. That loss of demand was permanent and it will stay permanent so long as we are in the current situation of poor productivity growth and poor wage growth for 90% of our citizens.

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/consumer-spending

And again, it has nothing to do with envy. Tax cuts for the wealthy are poor engines for economic efficiency. Tax cuts for corporations are better, but still not great. The economic efficiency of many types of government spending are higher than these tax cuts. The economic efficiency of giving more real dollars to the bottom 50% of our income bracket is higher still, especially when the problem is consumer demand.

Here's a long report detailing the evidence that show that tax cuts and gains have little predictable effect on economic growth:

"The argument that income tax cuts raise growth is
repeated so often that it is sometimes taken as gospel.
However, theory, evidence, and simulation studies tell
a different and more complicated story. Tax cuts offer
the potential to raise economic growth by improving
incentives to work, save, and invest. But they also
create income effects that reduce the need to engage
in productive economic activity, and they may subsidize
old capital, which provides windfall gains to asset holders
that undermine incentives for new activity. In addition,
tax cuts as a stand-alone policy (that is, not accompanied
by spending cuts) will typically raise the federal budget
deficit. The increase in the deficit will reduce national
saving—and with it, the capital stock owned by Americans
and future national income—and raise interest rates,
which will negatively affect investment. The net effect of
the tax cuts on growth is thus theoretically uncertain and
depends on both the structure of the tax cut itself and
the timing and structure of its financing."

The report does, to your point, say that tax cuts combined with spending cuts of inefficient public spending does produce growth in models, but that has *never* happened in US history. Tax cuts have always been coupled with increased public spending that we've had to finance. Tax cuts that not matched with spending cuts from inefficient areas ultimately result in decreased growth which is the situation we are in now. 15 years of unfunded wars, public expansion, and tax cuts.
https://www.brookings.edu/wp-conten..._Tax_Changes_Economic_Growth_Gale_Samwick.pdf

I will conceed that Obama was a regulatory monster and I was not upset with Trump's aim to deregulate though he is not the person I would have chosen to do it.
 
So to your main point about needing supply side interventions, I agree supply side theory has its merits and is absolutely useful in the right situations.
To be clear, I am not necessarily a fan of tax cuts or saying we need supply side tax cuts.I wish someone would just keep them steady with major simplification of the tax code. I merely say it works, just only in the long term, where as tax rises only ever help for a very limited amount of time(unless we are at the point we are not taking enough to supply our core services). The reason I'd tread careful is tax stability matters a heck of a lot more than tax burden. I think we need tax breaks in general but balancing the budget and spending problem comes first. It's a necessary pain at the moment. If we do cut taxes, cut at the bottom where it doesn't affect total revenues very much. I am not against more though as their pain (temporary shortfall) does pay off down the line I just don't think it's prudent.

This tax cuts are always justified is where "supply side" drives me nuts. Cut spending then cut taxes. Spending cuts are the hard part to be done first, tax cuts should be end of term alas democracy encourages the later. Maybe trump will bulk :-|

The issue with its use here is that the 2008 financial crisis was not a supply side problem. It was a demand problem from which we never bounced back. I think our economy is in a transition period right now so its a little difficult to say what the best route forward right now would be because I don't think anyone knows where we are going right now. Record stock market prices, record profits, low wages, low worker particaption, no market correction in a year, Price to earnings ratios rather high, job growth solid but not stellar, economic growth mediocre. We are in unfamiliar territory I think.
I agree in that the problem is the artificially low interest rates that caused 2008 and why it's not recovering. Only stopping artificially low interest rates with the pains that come with that will end the slowing growth. Over debt capitalization is chocking equity, income mobility and new ventures. I made fine returns in 2008 - it was more foreseeable than most make it seem....sometimes common sense is lost in educated guessing.

We are btw headed strait for another bigger crash...this probably sounds paranoid but all those market gains are smoke and mirrors and it's worse in other countries. Debt funding debt funding which just sells a debt or insurance or IOU product.The real economy of products and service (involving non financial products) is the only gains and loses that matter. They are currently way undervalued and not expanding as a result -- returns in pushing financial products is too tempting and returns dictate stock price and where investment is directed...the problem again is fancy banking and insurance structures might give good returns but they don't give tangible benefits and are a de facto tax on the real market...

The tangible example I use: When you have dynamic established players and it's cheaper to the bottom line to buy up that startup in an infant competitive stage rather than adapt and they do so without a blink it means there's an underlying problem. Many point to just size and that true (this is common and the bigger corporations get the more common) but it's more then size and has to do with debt. When you can purchase that with debt/cash what happens? The startup gains no real equity only cash and the dinosaur writes it off as an expense and goes on with little gain other than protecting market share and killing any redundancy a key to employment/long term stability. This is often off set in the market by the fact that buy offs require cash which usually has to come from either dividends or equity financing(not an easy sell). This means you lose ownership and who has new capital? Easy - startup sellers, employees etc

Now today debt is easy and much lower than return so why pay with these predatory things with equity? Finance it and off set with changes in raises in stock price which is certain till the crash by stability/predictability through market control. Why don't investors care? - easy when capital gains growth looks high enough and return beats interest much of the investment capital is either cheap debt or indifferent retirement funds looking for set returns not dividends...see post #234

There is no raised investment through increased capital since most stocks are over-valued and banking taxes are skyrocketing with every year we keep these artificial interest rates.
 
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