Seattle Mayor Conspired with University Researcher to Praise Minimum Wage Increase

Re: Seattle Mayor Conspired with University Researcher to Praise Minimum Wage Increas

ludin said:

Umm the fact is this article is 100% correct.

it did a investigation into Berkeley economic studies. it showed that every single on of them was for higher minimum wage. not only that is none of them were negative in their
reporting. yet there was another report that came out that showed how bias the berkely study was. that in fact was rigged.

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ludin said:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michae...udy-on-seattles-15-minimum-wage/#3e7c1a6156ae

The City Knew the Bad Minimum Wage Report Was Coming Out, So It Called Up Berkeley | Seattle Weekly

“UW study finds Seattle’s minimum wage is costing jobs,” read the Seattle Times headline Monday morning. The study found that while wages for low-earners rose by 3 percent since the law went into effect, hours for those workers dropped by 9 percent. The average worker making less than $19 an hour in Seattle has seen a total loss of $125 a month since the law went into effect.

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None of that has anything to do with my comments. The OP is a conspiracy theory with no evidence of his claim whatsoever. He turns correspondence on release date and press coverage into a conspiracy to falsify data at a politician's request. It's pathetic Truther-level BS.

Re: Seattle Mayor Conspired with University Researcher to Praise Minimum Wage Increas

truthatallcost said:

How do we get politics out of scientific research? That's what we should be concerned with. The mayor of Seattle practically ordered a research paper to fit his agenda, and many on DP ran with it, without knowing the real source was a corrupt mayor on the verge of being forced to resign.

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Start cutting hands and fingers off of politicians who interfere. There is no real risk for them right now.


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Re: Seattle Mayor Conspired with University Researcher to Praise Minimum Wage Increas

ludin said:

study after study after study has shown that it doesn't help poor people.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/timwor...are-we-bothering-with-it-at-all/#65dbc6515111
Hiking Minimum Wage an Inefficient Tool to Fight Poverty: Fed Research - NBC News

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Think I'll take fast food workers depicted and unions word for it over Forbes, tho to be fair the article mentions some other study demonstrating the opposite. Explain to me why representatives and advocates for workers tend to support raising the minimum wage, and representatives of employers tend to oppose it. The explanation seems quite simple to me. Would you rather work at an entry level position in California or Alabama?

Re: Seattle Mayor Conspired with University Researcher to Praise Minimum Wage Increas

ecofarm said:

None of that has anything to do with my comments. The OP is a conspiracy theory with no evidence of his claim whatsoever. He turns correspondence on release date and press coverage into a conspiracy to falsify data at a politician's request. It's pathetic Truther-level BS.

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well if am someone trying to push an agenda i am going to go to the place that supports what i want.
berkely has never given a critical study on the impact of minimum wage. all of their reports are fields of flowers.

Re: Seattle Mayor Conspired with University Researcher to Praise Minimum Wage Increas

ludin said:

well if am someone trying to push an agenda i am going to go to the place that supports what i want.
berkely has never given a critical study on the impact of minimum wage. all of their reports are fields of flowers.

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Irrelevant to my statements.

Re: Seattle Mayor Conspired with University Researcher to Praise Minimum Wage Increas

Nickyjo said:

Think I'll take fast food workers depicted and unions word for it over Forbes, tho to be fair the article mentions some other study demonstrating the opposite. Explain to me why representatives and advocates for workers tend to support raising the minimum wage, and representatives of employers tend to oppose it. The explanation seems quite simple to me. Would you rather work at an entry level position in California or Alabama?

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cherry picking is a fallacy not an argument.
i provided you links to educate yourself on how higher minimum wage doesn't help poor people.

one of the reports was from the actual federal government itself.
during the obama administration no less.

why? almost all unions have me too clauses in their contracts. if federal or even state minimum wage goes up so union pay automatically goes up as well.

because employers unlike unions know the cost of business. they realize that a 50% increase in wages is really a 65% cost increase which means they need 70% to cover.
you guys act like ol well it is only 7.50 that is nothing. it is more than 7.50 cents to the company.

taxes, insurance, workmans comp etc ... all go up as well. a person making 10 bucks an hour depending on the position will cost 13 an hour.
an employee making 15 depending on the position will cost the company 17 to 18 and hour.

it isn't just a flat wage increase and that is it.
it gets worse when the position doesn't call for that pay.

i wouldn't want to work an entry level position. if i do i am in a professional atmosphere in a professional entry position.

Re: Seattle Mayor Conspired with University Researcher to Praise Minimum Wage Increas

ecofarm said:

Irrelevant to my statements.

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not at all. the mayor of seattle sought out the most bias source he could to do a study.
that is a fact.

the article in the OP was not wrong.

Re: Seattle Mayor Conspired with University Researcher to Praise Minimum Wage Increas

ludin said:

not at all. the mayor of seattle sought out the most bias source he could to do a study.
that is a fact.

the article in the OP was not wrong.

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You are wrong. The mayor did not ask anyone to do a study, nor was the data in any way manipulated or otherwise illegitimate. He emailed a scientist about release date and publicity.

The article in the OP is not wrong, but the OP's pathetic CT is absolute BS. And you are wrong that the mayor asked anyone to do a study.

Enough of your BS. You refuse to recognize reality. The OP claim is pathetic Alex Jones level crap. Your claim (the mayor sought someone out to do a study) is false.

Good day. You two can spew garbage at someone else.

Re: Seattle Mayor Conspired with University Researcher to Praise Minimum Wage Increas

ludin said:

cherry picking is a fallacy not an argument.
i provided you links to educate yourself on how higher minimum wage doesn't help poor people.

one of the reports was from the actual federal government itself.
during the obama administration no less.

why? almost all unions have me too clauses in their contracts. if federal or even state minimum wage goes up so union pay automatically goes up as well.

because employers unlike unions know the cost of business. they realize that a 50% increase in wages is really a 65% cost increase which means they need 70% to cover.
you guys act like ol well it is only 7.50 that is nothing. it is more than 7.50 cents to the company.

taxes, insurance, workmans comp etc ... all go up as well. a person making 10 bucks an hour depending on the position will cost 13 an hour.
an employee making 15 depending on the position will cost the company 17 to 18 and hour.

it isn't just a flat wage increase and that is it.
it gets worse when the position doesn't call for that pay.

i wouldn't want to work an entry level position. if i do i am in a professional atmosphere in a professional entry position.

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My argument remains... Reps of working people lobby for a greater share of the pie for them. Reps of employers do the same. For the last 70 years or so things have gotten better for working people. Minimum wage is one of those things, as are unemployment insurance, worker's comp, the right to organize, etc. Employers and their representatives opposed these things. Workers and their representatives supported them. It's the way the world works.

Re: Seattle Mayor Conspired with University Researcher to Praise Minimum Wage Increas

ecofarm said:

You are wrong. The mayor did not ask anyone to do a study, nor was the data in any way manipulated or otherwise illegitimate. He emailed a scientist about release date and publicity.

The article in the OP is not wrong, but the OP's pathetic CT is absolute BS. And you are wrong that the mayor asked anyone to do a study.

Enough of your BS. You refuse to recognize reality. The OP claim is pathetic Alex Jones level crap. Your claim (the mayor sought someone out to do a study) is false.

Good day. You two can spew garbage at someone else.

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I have posted 2 articles that stated that the study was in fact flawed as the University of washington actually showed negative effects.
you are trying to deny reality for some reason and i don't know why.

the fact is that the minimum wage hike in seattle has had negative impacts on the people working there.
this is a fact. what strikes me is that berkely failed to list this in their report.

then again the last 6 reports from berkely on minimum wage increases have all been the same which is pretty much impossible.
it means that berkely is ignoring data that they don't like (pretty much what you and others are doing in this thread).

Re: Seattle Mayor Conspired with University Researcher to Praise Minimum Wage Increas

Nickyjo said:

My argument remains... Reps of working people lobby for a greater share of the pie for them. Reps of employers do the same. For the last 70 years or so things have gotten better for working people. Minimum wage is one of those things, as are unemployment insurance, worker's comp, the right to organize, etc. Employers and their representatives opposed these things. Workers and their representatives supported them. It's the way the world works.

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way to not address anything i said but typical. why can't liberals ever address the actual argument? it would be nice every once in a while.

Re: Seattle Mayor Conspired with University Researcher to Praise Minimum Wage Increas

ludin said:

way to not address anything i said but typical. why can't liberals ever address the actual argument? it would be nice every once in a while.

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you are kidding right? there is no argument.

Re: Seattle Mayor Conspired with University Researcher to Praise Minimum Wage Increas

ludin said:

I have posted 2 articles that stated that the study was in fact flawed as the University of washington actually showed negative effects.
you are trying to deny reality for some reason and i don't know why.

the fact is that the minimum wage hike in seattle has had negative impacts on the people working there.
this is a fact. what strikes me is that berkely failed to list this in their report.

then again the last 6 reports from berkely on minimum wage increases have all been the same which is pretty much impossible.
it means that berkely is ignoring data that they don't like (pretty much what you and others are doing in this thread).

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All irrelevant to my statements.

Re: Seattle Mayor Conspired with University Researcher to Praise Minimum Wage Increas

ludin said:

way to not address anything i said but typical. why can't liberals ever address the actual argument? it would be nice every once in a while.

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What is the actual argument that has gone unaddressed? Some are pro minimum wage, some are con. This often breaks down with workers vs management. I choose to side with workers, especially at a time when management types are getting much richer. Conservative employers and their advocates often posit that the sky will fall if some regulation appears. I worked with farm labor in California for a few years. Workers had to use a short handled hoe in certain jobs, as employers thought it was more efficient. They fought its prohibition even though it broke workers backs to be bent over 7-8 hours a day, and even though it wasn't used in some states. They lost. Produce still appears in supermarkets. Stoop labor hasn't ended. But the regulation prohibiting the "cortito," as it was called, reduced the number of weeks a worker put his health in jeopardy. You could tell much the same story about pesticide regulation.

True, some employers will balk at hiring if they have to pay a higher minimum wage, so jobs are lost, or not, depending on your/my favorite study, just as they were with automation, or for that matter, with the end of slavery. If you can't pay what society requires, check your business model. Capitalism ain't perfect, so society sees fit to protect business in all sorts of ways, and has seen fit to protect workers as well.

Re: Seattle Mayor Conspired with University Researcher to Praise Minimum Wage Increas

Nickyjo said:

What is the actual argument that has gone unaddressed? Some are pro minimum wage, some are con. This often breaks down with workers vs management. I choose to side with workers, especially at a time when management types are getting much richer. Conservative employers and their advocates often posit that the sky will fall if some regulation appears. I worked with farm labor in California for a few years. Workers had to use a short handled hoe in certain jobs, as employers thought it was more efficient. They fought its prohibition even though it broke workers backs to be bent over 7-8 hours a day, and even though it wasn't used in some states. They lost. Produce still appears in supermarkets. Stoop labor hasn't ended. But the regulation prohibiting the "cortito," as it was called, reduced the number of weeks a worker put his health in jeopardy. You could tell much the same story about pesticide regulation.

True, some employers will balk at hiring if they have to pay a higher minimum wage, so jobs are lost, or not, depending on your/my favorite study, just as they were with automation, or for that matter, with the end of slavery. If you can't pay what society requires, check your business model. Capitalism ain't perfect, so society sees fit to protect business in all sorts of ways, and has seen fit to protect workers as well.

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choosing to ignore studies tells me all i need to know.
thanks for playing.

People don't pay what society wants they pay what the job calls for.
scanning an item across a scanner doesn't call for 15 an hour no matter how much you think it does.

sad that you don't understand this.
business pays according to the skill of the person.

Re: Seattle Mayor Conspired with University Researcher to Praise Minimum Wage Increas

ludin said:

choosing to ignore studies tells me all i need to know.
thanks for playing.

-- I didn't ignore the study, just don't believe it should control policy. And there are other studies, presumably ones you are free to view and similarly not allow to influence policy.

People don't pay what society wants they pay what the job calls for.
scanning an item across a scanner doesn't call for 15 an hour no matter how much you think it does.

-- Depends on who does the "call for". Who died and left you in charge to determine what a job is worth? Or me for that matter? A combination of the capitalism of Adam Smith and the socialism of Norman Thomas has decided that since the 1930s. Scanners in my city/state apparently get paid a bit more than $15/hr as a minimum and the stores stay open.

sad that you don't understand this.
business pays according to the skill of the person.

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-- True sometimes, as when union contracts provide for different wages for more skilled workers. Elsewhere, business pays what the market demands. If they can get away with cheap imported labor, as in the bracero program (which continued long after its planned expiration at the end of WWII) or by importing tech workers due to shortages of labor, they will do so. If they can't import labor they will increase wages. The first successful farmworker strike happened a year after the bracero program ended. Workers didn't get more skilled to earn their higher wage, they got scarce when they went on strike. So fewer available workers means higher wages. An employer may also pay more for certain jobs that are particularly dangerous, irrespective of the skills required to do them. The price of housing in a certain area may move cities to raise minimum wage, say in San Francisco, near where I live. Restaurants will still hire dishwashers, as do friends of mine who own one, and pass increased costs on to their customers. So I pay a buck more for an entre and dine out less often, creating different effects. Capitalism isn't perfect, and we have decided to inject some socialist principles to deal with its imperfections, and then modify those laws and regulations if necessary and/or politically advisable. That's why we elected FDR and LBJ.

But I still don't understand: would you like the minimum wage eliminated altogether or not increased?

Re: Seattle Mayor Conspired with University Researcher to Praise Minimum Wage Increas

Nickyjo said:

-- True sometimes, as when union contracts provide for different wages for more skilled workers. Elsewhere, business pays what the market demands. If they can get away with cheap imported labor, as in the bracero program (which continued long after its planned expiration at the end of WWII) or by importing tech workers due to shortages of labor, they will do so. If they can't import labor they will increase wages. The first successful farmworker strike happened a year after the bracero program ended. Workers didn't get more skilled to earn their higher wage, they got scarce when they went on strike. So fewer available workers means higher wages. An employer may also pay more for certain jobs that are particularly dangerous, irrespective of the skills required to do them. The price of housing in a certain area may move cities to raise minimum wage, say in San Francisco, near where I live. Restaurants will still hire dishwashers, as do friends of mine who own one, and pass increased costs on to their customers. So I pay a buck more for an entre and dine out less often, creating different effects. Capitalism isn't perfect, and we have decided to inject some socialist principles to deal with its imperfections, and then modify those laws and regulations if necessary and/or politically advisable. That's why we elected FDR and LBJ.

But I still don't understand: would you like the minimum wage eliminated altogether or not increased?

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I see no point in increasing minimum wage. It does nothing but set a new floor to poverty while devaluing other more skilled jobs.
What you don't think the person that is making 15 is going to want to be paid more than minimum wage.

I really don't think you guys think things through fully. It sounds good as an emotional argument and feel good policy and you ignore all the other issues that go along with it.