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Net neutrality is being threatened.

Let me ask you. let's say you are on a voip call at 3pm and all the kiddies come home get on thier xbox's, netflix and other streaming services to the point of saturation. should the isp be allowed to traffic shape so that you can stay on your very low bandwith phone call by throttling the over represented netflix streaming or should they just open the hose and grind the entire network to a halt in the name of "net neutrality"?

Sounds like the ISP sold significant more access to their network than they could actually provide, which is the type of bull**** practice that would get you into massive issues in an ACTUAL free market...but because the Internet is a practical necessity in modern society and these companies often get to operate as pseudo monopolies, it's ignored to the point where an idiotic hypothetical like this can even be put forth.

Doesn't really make your argument, if anything it just highlights the problem with the ISPs and the current setup
 
Question for all those criticizing Net Neutrality and bitching and moaning about the government.

How much time have you spent online or elsewhere discussing and voicing your criticism of the various local Government regulations, practices, and kick backs that help to allow the various telecoms to maintain their near monopoly like status in various locations?

You don't want government regulation? Cool. I get it. But if that's REALLY your concern, why in the hell are you not spending more time actually criticizing and attacking the government regulation that has created the situation where these telecoms are in a position to engage in such practices that they HAVE engaged in and continue to discuss as potential future actions? Why are you not as fervent in demanding these monopolistic companies, and their sweetheart deals with various localities, be blown up to allow an ACTUAL free market to occur.

Because right now, you're basically going "I don't want net neutrality, because I prefer the government created unfree market that exists over the other government created unfree market because....um, because". What it really seems is basically that this is a lot less about "we don't want government regulation" and more about "We just want to serve Corporate interests".

Net Neutrality is a the worse fix to an already bad problem, but unfortunately the more likely to occur fix. Why? Because actually ending the sweet heart deals between the major telecoms and localities is not something anyone on either side actually seems to have ANY stomach to do. This is in part because to acknowledge that the market ISN'T free and is ****ed up on the part of those who oppose Net Neutrality would put their arguments about "the free market" in jeapordy, so rather than actually show themselves to be for "less government" they just ignore that issue.

As you know, I'm technologically illiterate on all things computer-and/or-internet.

This is the first thing I've read on this "net neutrality" issue that gave me a glimmer of understanding as to what the entire thing is about. A light bulb, albeit a dim one, went off in my tech-challenged brain, and I actually learned something! Thanks for this post.
 
Question for all those criticizing Net Neutrality and bitching and moaning about the government.

How much time have you spent online or elsewhere discussing and voicing your criticism of the various local Government regulations, practices, and kick backs that help to allow the various telecoms to maintain their near monopoly like status in various locations?

You don't want government regulation? Cool. I get it. But if that's REALLY your concern, why in the hell are you not spending more time actually criticizing and attacking the government regulation that has created the situation where these telecoms are in a position to engage in such practices that they HAVE engaged in and continue to discuss as potential future actions? Why are you not as fervent in demanding these monopolistic companies, and their sweetheart deals with various localities, be blown up to allow an ACTUAL free market to occur.

Because right now, you're basically going "I don't want net neutrality, because I prefer the government created unfree market that exists over the other government created unfree market because....um, because". What it really seems is basically that this is a lot less about "we don't want government regulation" and more about "We just want to serve Corporate interests".

Net Neutrality is a the worse fix to an already bad problem, but unfortunately the more likely to occur fix. Why? Because actually ending the sweet heart deals between the major telecoms and localities is not something anyone on either side actually seems to have ANY stomach to do. This is in part because to acknowledge that the market ISN'T free and is ****ed up on the part of those who oppose Net Neutrality would put their arguments about "the free market" in jeapordy, so rather than actually show themselves to be for "less government" they just ignore that issue.

You're kinda glossing over a huge point about distribution. The logistics of distribution make free market solutions inherently inefficient and untenable.

If every single household had to carve up miles of streets to string cables to their ISP, the costs for internet service would be monumental. By consolidating those distribution costs, considerable costs are saved.

Those costs are important as they serve as barriers to entry for competitors. While i like essentially all of what you have to say above, you're not really explaining why a full "free market" solution is not actually a viable option, anyway.

And i'm happy to remind you of the difference between private, Comcast, and public, Nextlight, from my own personal experience:

a6216e702ab62bb309d3947834177277.png


Roughly 8 times faster download, 80 times faster upload, one third the latency, at half the price.

All that extra money, between the $2.50/mo it costs Comcast to provide high speed internet service and the $90/mo they charge, is being siphoned from consumers for no gain.
 
As you know, I'm technologically illiterate on all things computer-and/or-internet.

This is the first thing I've read on this "net neutrality" issue that gave me a glimmer of understanding as to what the entire thing is about. A light bulb, albeit a dim one, went off in my tech-challenged brain, and I actually learned something! Thanks for this post.

Here's the unfortunate issue, and for sake of ease we're going to ignore the primary backbone and providers such as L3 and focus on the "last mile".

Due to a mess of reasons, broadband companies in many places within the nation exist as a monopoly, or at best a monopoly for their specific type of broadband and only one or at most two other competitors. And the latter situation is largely not applicable in most rural areas. One of the big reasons that this mess exists is because of issues relating to localities and these big telecoms as it relates to infrastructure. The reality is that it costs significant money to lay new infrastructure down if you're an telecommunication company looking to "break in" to the market. Part of the reason for this is exorbitant fees and regulations put forward by local and state governments, in large part due to kickbacks and lobby on the part of the telecom industry. Its for this reason that even a "tiny" company like Googe [/sarcasm] has had issues creating startup internet providers and has flat out abandoned attempts to do it except in areas with the smallest amount of regulations possible.

Reasons like this helps create a situation where the "market" for broadband is anything BUT free, but is rather is this corporation/government crafted localized monopolies with an extremely high cost of entry for any "competitors".

An alternative would be to essentially work with an ISP who already exists to try and piggy back off "their lines" in some kind of common use agreement, but this is problematic and is not something most would actually open to. Which also touches on another big issue. While people will go "woe is the telecoms" about the fact they had to "pay for their infrastructure", much of that infrastructure (for example the copper wiring the cable companies use) was actually subsidized BY tax payers. So yes, while it's the companies lines, it's hardly something they placed down just on their own.

So we have a situation with companies taking advantage of subsidized infrastructure, working in conjunction with local governments to regulate away likely competition, and creating this ridiculous segment "market" that exists for broadband. Which creates a situation where strong arming tactics are more feasible, where they're emboldened to do things like cutting off types of downloads they don't like on their network (as Comcast did with Bit Torrent in 2008), and where the fear of further wrong doing on their part will continue as usage of the internet becomes more ubiquitous and the data that's available more closely threatens the other business lines of the telecoms.

Thus you have a push for Net Neutrality as a form of government regulation. And in a lot of ways, it's like attempting to cure poison by giving yourself more poison; which is why, in general, I can understand some of the reticence for it. However, the fact that so few of the loudest critics of net neutrality ever say two ****s about the poison that exists CURRENTLY makes me sincerely question their motives and how much this is less about ideals and principles of small government, and more just being slaves to big business and/or just pushing a party line without any thought beyond that.

The issue right now, ultimately, isn't "net neutrality" or not. The issue is that there's a market that is NOT free, that is NOT healthy for competition, and thus is NOT a benefit to the consumer in any real fashion for a service that is quickly becoming a necessity in the modern world. The question SHOULD be how do we deal with that problem. The problem is, the entire discussion has turned into one about net neutrality...a potential cure, rather than the problem itself...and thus battle lines are drawn there, which frankly is the wrong location for this battle to be waged imho.
 
<A lot of really great information snipped for brevity.>

Wow. I read that post... twice... and I finally get the gist of both what the arguments for and against are, and why neither will ultimately result in a complete solution.

I imagine writing that informational piece took a great deal of time; however, it was worth it (to me certainly, lol) because of its educational value to those of us who don't want to be clueless about the topic, but were helpless to figure out where exactly to look for it. Thank you.
 
... Thus you have a push for Net Neutrality as a form of government regulation. And in a lot of ways, it's like attempting to cure poison by giving yourself more poison; which is why, in general, I can understand some of the reticence for it. ...

Zyphlin, due to government enabled “right-aways”, cables, pipelines, railroads are provided or otherwise enabled to build or acquire those “common carrier” devices and their routes that are in effect monopolies.

Similarly, the government enables a designated enterprise to broadcast on a specified electronic frequency through the air, and will by legal and technical means shield that frequency from interference from any other enterprises or unauthorized users. That’s certainly a monopoly of that electronic frequency.

Why would you conceivably believe the government should not regulate those enterprises enabled by the government?
Why isn’t it the government’s duty to protect the customers, and particularly general public customers, that are directly or indirectly dependent upon those government enabled monopoly enterprises?

Respectfully, Supposn
 
So a company has never blocked the usage of a service (such as a VOIP service like Vonage) that competed with it's own services?

A company never forcibly disconnected users bit torrent connections?

A company has never exempted it's own services from data caps, while leaving those caps imposed on competing services?

Note, none of these actually deal specifically with them trying to demand more money from netflix or slowing down their usages.

I know you like to hold yourself as an IT expert, but here's more of a debate issue...you disliking a persons argument or stance is not the same as that argument and stance not liking it. You can "teach me" all you'd in your belief that it makes it "okay", but making it "okay" or even "understandable" doesn't change the fact of whether or not it OCCURRED.

Saying something "didn't happen" and saying something "did happen, but it's completely reasonable that it did" are not the same thing, no matter how much you want to pretend and act like it is.

And you can fall back to your idiotic "luddite" argument all you want, but this fails in reality as it relates to some kind of appeal from authority given the fact that the vast majority of big tech companies....hardly "luddites"...are in favor of Net Neutrality. So yes, while some of those who argue for it (and, unless you're being laughably dishonest, some of those who argue AGAINST it as well) may be "luddites", it is hardly a relevant notion when trying to make an argument as to whether net neutrality is a positive thing or not.




my "idiotic luddite argument"? what's idiotic is you thinking that pointing out most people are ignorant as to what they are talking about as an appeal to authority. There have been isolated cases of what you claim, but moreso there has been none of it.


1. If I have a company and I want to favor my own services, shouldn't that be my right? telling my customers who have my cable tv that if they want to watch it via streaming I won't charge you against a cap, I see nothing wrong with. I am paying THAT company for THIER service.

2. vonage 1 small ISP blocked it, and they were immedietly fined way back in 2005. FCC Fines Telecom that Blocked Vonage VoIP Calls | News | E-Commerce Times No net neutrality bill needed.

3. Bittorrent blocking is another issue alltogether, has more to do with being sued by hollywood than allowing the traffic.

3. you show your ignorance with netflix. Netflix wanted more peer access and to not pay fees, they demanded the isp's not charge them for basically hooking up direct fire hoses to thier equipment. That's what the netflix fight was about, at no time was netflix throttled. (except for verizon). All the throttling was done by netflix. THEY SLOWED DOWN THEMSELVES. I can even go into the multiple transit providers that netflix uses and show you that I believe it was only cogent who was affected because they were at capacity and while taking netflix's money wouldn't pay comcast for more peers.

Funny enough if you had an apple tv you were not affected by this as apple tv was using akami, not cogent who was not affected.


https://www.wsj.com/article_email/n...n-phones-1458857424-lMyQjAxMTE2OTIyNDMyNDQxWj

I keep posting articles explaining the netfllix issue but none of you seem willing to try to understand it. It's insanity. so if you think my argument regarding "luddites" is idiotic, talk to me on the topic like Midwest lib has and a couple others.


Here's How The Comcast & Netflix Deal Is Structured, With Data & Numbers - Dan Rayburn - StreamingMediaBlog.com



4. I can "dislike" a persons argument as an expert if that other person is saying stupid **** and not having a clue about the argument in the first place.



5. Heres the deal.... if you don't understand the following you really (general you) shouldn't pontificate with hubris on the topic.

Net Neutrality Vs. net neutrality.

Peering

Peering providers

Colocation

Transits

Throttling

Traffic shaping

Fast lanes

cogent

among other terms. I literally had some luddite tell me I didn't know what I was talking about because I was discussing peering. I may be bombastic, grandiloquent but I know damn well what I speak of. whatever aspect of this whole issue you want to argue. I'd be happy to. Just lecturing me on the technology and the crux of the issue when I sit here with links, and explanations to people who ignore them is literally like a plumber lecturing a rocket scientist on trajectory analysis. *
 
Sounds like the ISP sold significant more access to their network than they could actually provide, which is the type of bull**** practice that would get you into massive issues in an ACTUAL free market...but because the Internet is a practical necessity in modern society and these companies often get to operate as pseudo monopolies, it's ignored to the point where an idiotic hypothetical like this can even be put forth.

Doesn't really make your argument, if anything it just highlights the problem with the ISPs and the current setup



But if you traffic shape (note all isp's say "up to xxxx speeds"?) that's because you can traffic shape, and they do. they also prioritize and do internal QoS. by doing this, no one has issues. perhaps ones midget goat porn torrents slow down by 5% but everyone is happy because thier **** works. If network utilization is less than 30% for argument 90% of the time, wouldn't it be a better business practice to oversell capacity if it only degrades perfomance by 5-10% during peak times?
 
my "idiotic luddite argument"?

Yes, the luddite argument is idiotic. There are people who are ignorant of what they are talking about on both sides of the net neutrality argument, as well there are extremely technologically savy people on both sides as well. You seemed to be trying to paint this as some sort of situation where those that are against it are just unknowledgeable luddites that don't know any better...a frankly distorted and untrue notion.

There have been isolated cases of what you claim, but moreso there has been none of it.

You can not acknowledge that there HAVE been cases while stating there are "none". The argument you're making here is laughable in its illogic.

1. If I have a company and I want to favor my own services, shouldn't that be my right?

Again, simply because you think it is OKAY does not mean the act didn't happen. Saying "it happens, but it's fine" is not the same as saying "it didn't happen".

And no, not when you're functioning as a quasi-monopoly, born off the back of tax payer subsidies.

3. you show your ignorance with netflix.

And you show your arrogance on this topic, as evidenced by the fact you don't bother to read what people actually write. I didn't speak about Netflix or reference them in the points I made. My only reference to Netflix was saying that all the above examples DID NOT INCLUDE the issue going on with Netflix. You want to keep falling back to the Netflix argument because you think you can smack people around on it; which is precisely WHY I didn't even bother to deal with the Netflix issue or use it as part of my argument in any way. The ONLY MENTION of Netflix in my post was specifically saying that it WASN'T an example I was using.

But you saw the word Netflix, and in your arrogance on this issue just immediately assumed what I must be saying rather than bothering to actually read and comprehend.
 
Yes, the luddite argument is idiotic. There are people who are ignorant of what they are talking about on both sides of the net neutrality argument, as well there are extremely technologically savy people on both sides as well. You seemed to be trying to paint this as some sort of situation where those that are against it are just unknowledgeable luddites that don't know any better...a frankly distorted and untrue notion.

I disagree. When you explain to them in detail why they have the crux of the argument wrong and they reject the technology lesson outright, they literally embody a modern day luddite. I've made no such argument. I believe midwest lib is on the other side of the argument but understands the technology.

You can not acknowledge that there HAVE been cases while stating there are "none". The argument you're making here is laughable in its illogic.

Ok, lets be completelely literal so we can score a point. "we don't get the northern lights in NJ", yet every now and then, rarely, we do.

Again, simply because you think it is OKAY does not mean the act didn't happen. Saying "it happens, but it's fine" is not the same as saying "it didn't happen".

not my argument. not my claim.


And no, not when you're functioning as a quasi-monopoly, born off the back of tax payer subsidies.

I have a choice of 6 is's but yes, the companies should not be subsidized.

And you show your arrogance on this topic, as evidenced by the fact you don't bother to read what people actually write. I didn't speak about Netflix or reference them in the points I made. My only reference to Netflix was saying that all the above examples DID NOT INCLUDE the issue going on with Netflix. You want to keep falling back to the Netflix argument because you think you can smack people around on it; which is precisely WHY I didn't even bother to deal with the Netflix issue or use it as part of my argument in any way. The ONLY MENTION of Netflix in my post was specifically saying that it WASN'T an example I was using.

I responded to what you posted. There is no arrogance here, there is ignorance and hubris, from the other side, what I have is not arrogance which is an inflated sense of self worth, etc. I am actually that knowledgeable on this topic. like I said, pick a portion of it, and I'll discuss it with you.

But you saw the word Netflix, and in your arrogance on this issue just immediately assumed what I must be saying rather than bothering to actually read and comprehend.


I read and responded to what you posted. if you can't see that, I don't know what to tell ya brother!
 
... Thus you have a push for Net Neutrality as a form of government regulation. And in a lot of ways, it's like attempting to cure poison by giving yourself more poison; which is why, in general, I can understand some of the reticence for it. However, the fact that so few of the loudest critics of net neutrality ever say two ****s about the poison that exists CURRENTLY makes me sincerely question their motives and how much this is less about ideals and principles of small government, and more just being slaves to big business and/or just pushing a party line without any thought beyond that. ...

Government laws and regulations and internet neutrality:

Criticism of “Too much government regulation” is meaningless until you specifically identify the specific classifications or individual regulations you wish to eliminate or modify and explicitly describe your reasoning, including that of any modifications or replacements you’re advocating.
To extent that government should fail properly enforcing standards of weights, measures, purity of contents or other attributes of products or services, the least honest providers of the poorest quality products are at greater advantage.

All government’s existing or proposed activities, laws, and regulations, and all governments lack of such, should for each of them be judged upon their individual merits or lack of merits.

The concept that government activity or regulations are ALWAYS inferior, and freedom with absolutely no protection for the less wealthy, or less strong, or for minority opinions will ALWAYS be to the net best interests of our aggregate society, is incorrect.

Broadband internet industry’s enterprises are subject to similar rules that enterprises of other industries are subject to; but many of those industries enterprises are less competitive because they are not engaged within a competitive segment of the industry and/or competitive market places; [some of internet industries’ enterprises were for good reasons classified and subject to regulations appropriate for utility companies].
Utility enterprises operate as or similar to monopolies. Additional regulations are required to shield from what otherwise is monopolies’ additional advantages and abilities to directly or indirectly abuse the public and/or economy.

Respectfully, Supposn
 
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