Political Prejudice v Racial Pejudice

Fishking said:

Hmmm...interesting. It's almost as if there aren't innumerable cultures and values spread around the world, according to your position. If things were so simply true or not, right and wrong, there should be much more parity among the different cultures in our vast globe. Their very existences puts the lie to what you've just stated.

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This ignores the existence of values that permeate throughout virtually all cultures throughout history and across this planet. A perfect example is the law of reciprocity, also known as the Golden Rule. A version of this rule exists in virtually all cultures in existence. It predates christianity, ismalm and judism. It is taught by virtual all major religions including Atheists. The reason is because it is based in logic. Logic makes sense regardless of what culture you are a born into.

Fishking said:

You didn't answer my question. You put your own conditions on it. The question was, what's the chance of you just choosing to become a religious fundamentalist?

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I did answer your question. The chances are small because if the evidence existed I would have already heard it by now. But if the evidence did exist, and I came across it, then the chances are incredibly high. That is the only logical answer that can be given to your question. If you don't like it that's because your question was deliberately irrational.

OlNate said:

lol...nah, man, telling people what to do is part of the norm now, regardless of political lean. All I have to say in response is "Abortion", "Gay Marriage", "Legalizing Drugs" (could go on, but those are the first ones that popped into my head) and you can see that the Right feels just as entitled as the Left in telling people how to live their lives.

I don't think you can get to the unity you're looking for without everyone standing in a room together and, regardless of lean, admitting that they've been assholes.

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You already know what I think of the first part and as for the second there is a good reason why relationship counselors suggest not dwelling on the blame game for those who desire to move the relationship to a better place.

Hawkeye10 said:

You already know what I think of the first part and as for the second there is a good reason why relationship counselors suggest not dwelling on the blame game for those who desire to move the relationship to a better place.

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Agreed...but in order to move past those problems, they have to be acknowledged and amends need to be made. And then yes, immediately move on.

Hawkeye10 said:

You sound like that idiot Obama..."The arc of history is for sure going my way!".

No better than these fools who get down on their knees to God sure that they will be saved because they "think right".

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The difference is that I'm basing it on facts, and a good understanding of how these battles have always gone throughout history, not the magic words of a 2000 year old book that may or may not contain the teachings of a being that cannot even be confirmed to exist.

Youth and rationality always win these fights in the long run.

OlNate said:

Agreed...but in order to move past those problems, they have to be acknowledged and amends need to be made. And then yes, immediately move on.

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No, the past is dead, moping over it will not fix anything regardless of the claims of Victim Culture.....Victim Culture and its need for a pound of flesh from the ones deamed abusers can go **** itself, we have squandered already far too much of ourselves into that dead end.

All that moving on requires is the decision to move on.

MrWonka said:

This ignores the existence of values that permeate throughout virtually all cultures throughout history and across this planet. A perfect example is the law of reciprocity, also known as the Golden Rule. A version of this rule exists in virtually all cultures in existence. It predates christianity, ismalm and judism. It is taught by virtual all major religions including Atheists. The reason is because it is based in logic. Logic makes sense regardless of what culture you are a born into.

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Some small example exists, yes. But it has been as far from the dominant structure in the multitude of cultures around the world as you can get.

I did answer your question. The chances are small because if the evidence existed I would have already heard it by now. But if the evidence did exist, and I came across it, then the chances are incredibly high. That is the only logical answer that can be given to your question. If you don't like it that's because your question was deliberately irrational.

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Again with the conditions. Religious beliefs require faith. How about you do it, right now, just for a few seconds. Choose to become an actual religious fundamentalist, right now. Not fake the practices but to actually believe. Do it right now.

I mean, you say it's all a choice, after all.

MrWonka said:

The evidence is not actually to the contrary, you just don't understand healthcare. By virtually all accounts the ACA is working quite well, and expanded insurance to millions of America while improve the insurance of Millions more. While some people have seen premium increases those increases are due mostly to three factors. 1.) the naturally increasing costs of healthcare which the ACA mitigated, but can't completely eliminate. 2.) the improved coverage they got under the ACA. 3.) The fact that millions of Americans chose not to sign up because they believed the bull**** propaganda of Republicans.

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your congressional party leader claimed "has to be passed to see what's in it":

claimed it would allow you to keep your plan: 'Millions' Lost Insurance - FactCheck.org

reduce premiums and deductibles: Why Health Care Premiums Are Rising Under Obamacare - ABC News, The Obameter: Cut the cost of a typical family's health insurance premium by up to $2,500 a year | PolitiFact

provide more choice: https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-health-insurer-exits/

Those were my claims about the ACA and these are links that speak to those claims.

I never said anything about the republicans inability to pass a good healthcare bill, I only asked if the items above that I cited are true, which they are, do you fit into the moron or hate category you put republicans in.

MrWonka said:

You might be able to make this stupid argument if they had tried it once, and learned their lesson. But even after the obvious failures of the first handful of states that passed these idiotic laws conservatives today still keep advocating for them as if they're good ideas. That indicates that they're incapable of learning(stupid), or they just don't care(hate the poor).

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I merely asked:
I never passed any judgement on whether their attempts to remedy this concern worked or made any sense. Do you think it's a good thing for a welfare recipient to go and spend that money on narcotics? Is it moronic to not want that to happen?

MrWonka said:

Yes, given the obvious fact that a Wall would not stem the flow of illegal immigrants, drugs and terrorists. Walls have existed for hundreds of years. So have ladders. About 40 years ago a Republican president demanded Russia tear down a Wall that was causing more problems than it solved, and now here we are today with Republicans in love with Russia, and building a pointless wall that will cause more problems than it solves. If that's not the definition of stupidity what is?

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I said:
I'll cite this as a challenge to your fact about the feasibility of success: Border fence in Israel cut illegal immigration by 99 percent, GOP senator says | PolitiFact and say you have no facts because Trump hasn't done it yet.

And more importantly is it moronic, or stupid as you say or hateful towards Mexicans to want to minimize the possibility of illegal immigrants, drugs and terrorists from entering the united states and advocating a wall as part of that solution? That's what asked.

Not only republicans have advocated these types of measures: https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4351026/clinton-1995-immigration-sotu

MrWonka said:

I've given complete consideration to their motives and their arguments. Their arguments are stupid, and their motives are irrational and fear based.


Prejudice indicates I judged you without listening to you. I listened to everything you said, and then formed my judgement. I also gave you a flawless justification for my judgments. It is the fact that you are either incapable of or refusing to understand them that cause me to ignore civility. I would be happy to be more civil with you allowed it to work.

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You can't say their concerns or arguments are stupid, nor can you say they're prejudice. They just don't square with your view so they're morons and haters. This to me is not civility.

Fishking said:

Some small example exists, yes. But it has been as far from the dominant structure in the multitude of cultures around the world as you can get.

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But it permeates because out of all these so called "values" it is one that has a rational basis for it. That is the point. If you are going to impose your "values" upon someone else then you had better have a good rational reason why it's necessary. If it's just a feeling you have or something that a religious book taught you or it's just a traditional thing you've always done, then you do not have a good justification.

Fishking said:

Again with the conditions. Religious beliefs require faith. How about you do it, right now, just for a few seconds. Choose to become an actual religious fundamentalist, right now. Not fake the practices but to actually believe. Do it right now.

I mean, you say it's all a choice, after all.

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The choice is to remain open minded and keep searching for the truth even if you're pretty sure you already have it. Now, it's possible that a person simply has never heard the argument that will ultimately change their mind, and it is possible that some people have chosen to close their mind, but those who have done so can be fairly judged as being morons and or evil because the knowledge is out there and readily available.

Crispy said:

claimed it would allow you to keep your plan: 'Millions' Lost Insurance - FactCheck.org

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You should probably try reading your links before you post them..

Your own link said:

Critics of the law now say millions lost their health insurance. But that’s misleading. Those individual market plans were discontinued, but policyholders weren’t denied coverage. And the question is, how many millions of insured Americans had plans canceled, and how does that compare with the millions of uninsured Americans who gained coverage under the law.
There is evidence that far more have gained coverage than had their policies canceled.

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Furthermore what this article doesn't point out the reality of how grandfathering works. All insurance policies that were in place before the ACA was signed were grandfathered in, and you were allowed to keep them. However, if your insurance company chose to discontinue the policy, that was always their choice. The ACA didn't make insurance companies do that, they chose to do it on their own.

Crispy said:

The Obameter: Cut the cost of a typical family's health insurance premium by up to $2,500 a year | PolitiFact[/url]

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Again you really need to try and read your own links before you post them:

your own link said:

Cutler acknowledged that Obama made "occasional misstatements” that tied the $2,500 reduction to premiums and not total medical spending.

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What president Obama was actually trying to say is that he would cut overall health care costs by that much, and there is actually a ton of evidence to conclude that health care costs in this country have dropped significantly as a result of the ACA. While it's virtually impossible to nail down exactly how much money the average family saved as a result of the ACA, at best you could argue that President Obama over exaggerated. Given that his statement is an estimate made years in advance it is misleading to call that a lie.

Crispy said:

provide more choice:

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Some insurers may have left the market, but again that is do largely to external factors that had as much to do with Republican propaganda as anything else. However the market itself is and additional choice. That wasn't there before.

The other aspect of this is that when there were issues that arose out of the law, it was Republicans who blocked fixes that would have remedied these situations.

Crispy said:

Those were my claims about the ACA and these are links that speak to those claims.

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And as pointed out by me, they ignore a great many realities. The most important of which is that nobody including President Obama can predict the future with certainty, and what kept him from keeping some of these promises was the fact that Republicans obstructed any further changes to the bill that would have resolved these issues.

Crispy said:

I only asked if the items above that I cited are true, which they are,

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No, they are not, and they are missing the overall point. All politicians say they want to do certain things as president, but when faced with the reality of the congress they are given they can't always accomplish them. That does not make them liars. Trump promised a whole bunch of things on the campaign trail. He has delivered on almost none of it so far. Does that mean you'll finally admit he's a liar?

Crispy said:

I merely asked: What kind of reasoning is this? Because fiscal Conservatives don't want benefits to go towards drugs and therefore tried something out that ended up costing more than expected they're morons or hate the poor?

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And as I explained to you already. You could get away with this bull**** excuse if you tried the idea once or twice, but Republicans are still pushing for it in more and more states even after reality has set in. That means they're not learning or their not trying to learn. That makes it legitimate to assume they are morons or they hate the poor. My reasoning is sound.

Crispy said:

I never passed any judgement on whether their attempts to remedy this concern worked or made any sense. Do you think it's a good thing for a welfare recipient to go and spend that money on narcotics? Is it moronic to not want that to happen?

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No, but the problem is that they ARE NOT ACTUALLY SPENDING THAT MONEY ON NARCOTICS. All the evidence has pointed us to that reality, yet Republicans are still beating that drum. That's why they are either morons or evil.

Crispy said:

I said:

Because Conservatives feel border security and some form of Wall could stem the flow of illegal immigrants, drugs and terrorists, and they advocate legal immigration to get that net positive you speak of instead of illegals, they're morons or hate Mexicans?
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MrWonka said:

But it permeates because out of all these so called "values" it is one that has a rational basis for it. That is the point. If you are going to impose your "values" upon someone else then you had better have a good rational reason why it's necessary. If it's just a feeling you have or something that a religious book taught you or it's just a traditional thing you've always done, then you do not have a good justification.

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I wouldn't say it permeates much of anything, looking at history. In fact, I'd almost say that only in about the past 100 years or so would I say such a thing has become anywhere close to being practiced on a widespread scale.

The choice is to remain open minded and keep searching for the truth even if you're pretty sure you already have it. Now, it's possible that a person simply has never heard the argument that will ultimately change their mind, and it is possible that some people have chosen to close their mind, but those who have done so can be fairly judged as being morons and or evil because the knowledge is out there and readily available.

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Closed minded is almost a useless term. It's a term that can be used by any one group on another and it can be valid.

MrWonka said:

Because you can't change the color of your skin, and the color of your skin tells us nothing about your character or what type of person you are.

However, your willingness to support a lazy obviously racist, misogynist, xenophobic fascist authoritarian with narcissistic personality disorder that has been accused of sexually assaulting multiple women including a thirteen year old girl and can be objectively proven to be the least honest presidential candidate in modern history tells us exactly what type of people Republicans are. They're either complete morons, or they're pure evil. Nobody forced you to vote Trump. You weren't born with a heart filled with hatred. You chose to be that way of your own free will. That makes it a perfectly acceptable reason to judge another person.

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that attitude is why Hillary lost. when all the breaks were on her side

Mr Person said:

Division, eh?

It probably would've helped if people hadn't spent 8 years slandering Obama's religious beliefs, accusing him of lying about his birthplace, saying he's racist against white people and wants to destroy America, yadda yadda.

It would've also helped if people hadn't elected a dumbass vulgarian because he pisses off "the left," and then continued to use that as their main point of praise.

It would've helped if right wing politicians hadn't spent so long trying to convince rural red America that "the left" actively hates them and wants to control every aspect of their lives.





And no, that isn't all OK because Hillary called some people deplorable.

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it would have helped if Left-wingers hadn't spent 8 years claiming Bush was a moron when his intellect was certainly as good as, and perhaps stronger than John Kerry and Al Gore's. It would have helped if people on the left stopped pretending that being a liberal or a big government collectivist makes you smarter than people who actually get by on their own. Calling people who oppose Obama Care and the DNC "bitter clingers" and then "deplorables" didn't help.

Fishking said:

How much do we really get to choose our ideas?

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The idea of individualism... and not determinism, is that we as individuals when we become adults become responsible for who we are as people and the actions we commit. It is our individual responsibility to seek the truth, and live our lives as close to the truth as we can. Just because many of us choose to be agents of those in society who have groomed us, does not mean we do not hold the responsibility of becoming one of those agents, but acknowledging this aspect of reality and making in a part of our culture and society makes people more resistant to determinism(even though there are entire political wings dedicated to put everyone in a deterministic mindset).

I could care less if a liberal likes me, and that goes for the far right idiots as well. Anyone that caught up with politics needs to get a ****ing life.

TurtleDude said:

it would have helped if Left-wingers hadn't spent 8 years claiming Bush was a moron when his intellect was certainly as good as, and perhaps stronger than John Kerry and Al Gore's. It would have helped if people on the left stopped pretending that being a liberal or a big government collectivist makes you smarter than people who actually get by on their own. Calling people who oppose Obama Care and the DNC "bitter clingers" and then "deplorables" didn't help.

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I tend to think calling someone stupid is a hell of a lot worse than everything said about Obama. Stupidity vs. racist against white people, secret muslim, from Kenya, hates America/wants to destroy it, etc.

:shrug:

And if boards like DP are any measure, there has overall been a whole lot more nastiness aimed at the left in recent times; worst part of it is, the ones who tend to throw the most nastiness around also seem more likely to lament "division".

RetiredUSN said:

I could care less if a liberal likes me, and that goes for the far right idiots as well. Anyone that caught up with politics needs to get a ****ing life.

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And yet we live in a time where loads of people attempt to not associate with those who dont agree with them, because the others are defective, and apparently the cooties can spread.

MrWonka said:

You should probably try reading your links before you post them..

Furthermore what this article doesn't point out the reality of how grandfathering works. All insurance policies that were in place before the ACA was signed were grandfathered in, and you were allowed to keep them. However, if your insurance company chose to discontinue the policy, that was always their choice. The ACA didn't make insurance companies do that, they chose to do it on their own.


Again you really need to try and read your own links before you post them:

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All i pointed out here was that the statements here were true. Keeping your plan and your doctor was a broken promise and it was known to the administration despite their numerous assertions to the contrary. The grandfathering of old policies was honored in so far as those policies complied with the new requirements and that was never stated and folks lost their coverage and their doctors because of it. No?

MrWonka said:

What president Obama was actually trying to say is that he would cut overall health care costs by that much, and there is actually a ton of evidence to conclude that health care costs in this country have dropped significantly as a result of the ACA. While it's virtually impossible to nail down exactly how much money the average family saved as a result of the ACA, at best you could argue that President Obama over exaggerated. Given that his statement is an estimate made years in advance it is misleading to call that a lie.

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I didn't call it a lie I only stated it as a fact which is undisputed. Since this post was about discourse and prejudice and you chose to categorize Conservatives as stupid and haters because you say their positions were based on untrue facts, I pointed out the ACA un-truths and asked if you hold yourself to that same standard. I'm not debating the ACA, I'm debating the broad brush you paint and whether or not you would paint supporters of the ACA the same way. Apparently not.

MrWonka said:

Some insurers may have left the market, but again that is do largely to external factors that had as much to do with Republican propaganda as anything else. However the market itself is and additional choice. That wasn't there before.

The other aspect of this is that when there were issues that arose out of the law, it was Republicans who blocked fixes that would have remedied these situations.



And as pointed out by me, they ignore a great many realities. The most important of which is that nobody including President Obama can predict the future with certainty, and what kept him from keeping some of these promises was the fact that Republicans obstructed any further changes to the bill that would have resolved these issues.

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Exactly. No one could predict the future. Are you so quick to call ACA supporters stupid morons that hate the insured because they couldn't adequately predict the affect the ACA would actually have? I'm not doing that. I don't call supporters of the ACA or Obama a prejudice moron even though he did know about much of this and stated otherwise. And yes the republicans in congress did do that.

MrWonka said:

No, they are not, and they are missing the overall point. All politicians say they want to do certain things as president, but when faced with the reality of the congress they are given they can't always accomplish them. That does not make them liars. Trump promised a whole bunch of things on the campaign trail. He has delivered on almost none of it so far. Does that mean you'll finally admit he's a liar?

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[/QUOTE]

Trump said he was going to elect a supreme court justice that fit the Scalia mold, and did it. He said he was going to take action to stem the flow of illegal immigrants to the US and did it. He said he was going to work towards protecting American workers and managed to get companies to reconsider and keep their operation in the US vs shipping it over sees. I'm not going to call him a liar. I didn't call Obama a liar.

Problem is you're so Ideological that you're failing to see why I'm pointing these things out. It's not to argue the specific policies but to point out that the discourse is poisonous and that you don't seem to care that conservatives have a different view that, if you're right, you need to convince them of, not disparage them for, and vice versa, they need to extend the same.

MrWonka said:

And as I explained to you already. You could get away with this bull**** excuse if you tried the idea once or twice, but Republicans are still pushing for it in more and more states even after reality has set in. That means they're not learning or their not trying to learn. That makes it legitimate to assume they are morons or they hate the poor. My reasoning is sound.

No, but the problem is that they ARE NOT ACTUALLY SPENDING THAT MONEY ON NARCOTICS. All the evidence has pointed us to that reality, yet Republicans are still beating that drum. That's why they are either morons or evil.

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It doesn't make them stupid or against poor people for being concerned, just misinformed.

MrWonka said:

Yes, because the facts indicate that a wall will not stem the flow of illegal immigrants, drugs and terrorists, and they are deliberately making legal immigration so ridiculously difficult that it is counter productive. That's what makes them morons who hate Mexicans.




Again.....you really need to start reading your links before you post them....

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The link about the Israeli wall says it's not the only reason but affirms that it's part of the reason in the reduction of illegals crossing their border. You said "fact" a wall doesn't work so I provided what I consider an unbiased view of a situation where a wall was considered part of the solution. Is the Stupid? is it anti Mexican?

MrWonka said:

Furthermore this only addresses immigrants crossing the boarder, and not the reality that 70% of all illegal immigrants don't enter the united states via the border. It also ignores the reality of how many immigrants chose to just get into Israel some other way undetected.



No, they don't square with reality. That is what makes them morons and haters. As proved by the fact that all of your so called evidence has been quite easily shredded by me in a very short amount of time.

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Again you completely miss the point of my objection. You've ranted on about all these issues when the only point I i was making was that their concerns were not stupid or grounded in prejudice. The posts I referred to only asserted that I wasn't lying and answered your assertions. But, go ahead and stroke yourself for arguing issues that I wasn't attempting to debate. The views and concerns conservatives have I see no less valid than your views and I won't disparage them or you for holding them. I will disparage you for denigrating them and not advancing the dialog.

Mr Person said:

I tend to think calling someone stupid is a hell of a lot worse than everything said about Obama. Stupidity vs. racist against white people, secret muslim, from Kenya, hates America/wants to destroy it, etc.

:shrug:

And if boards like DP are any measure, there has overall been a whole lot more nastiness aimed at the left in recent times; worst part of it is, the ones who tend to throw the most nastiness around also seem more likely to lament "division".

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Oh Bush was called a "chimp" a Drunk, a moron, a coke head and worse. they called his wife a Murderer etc. pretending Obama was treated worse than Bush or Bill Clinton or Trump is really silly. I have yet to see a president who was treated worse for his first month or six months than Trump though

TurtleDude said:

Oh Bush was called a "chimp" a Drunk, a moron, a coke head and worse. they called his wife a Murderer etc. pretending Obama was treated worse than Bush or Bill Clinton or Trump is really silly. I have yet to see a president who was treated worse for his first month or six months than Trump though

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I've yet to see a President worse than Trump.



Look, we both know that you're going to see comments against a conservative President worse and I'm going to see comments against a liberal President worse; that's true no matter what one personally wills oneself to do. That's built into human brain structure. But let's not lose sight of the fact that every President is different; I say that because, yes you are correct that Trump is treated the worst (at least in my lifetime), but because I think I'm correct that he is in fact the worst in my lifetime, right out of the gate.

It also doesn't help that his campaign was centered around demonizing all politicians, with a lesser center around demonizing the left. And yes, I know, Hillary said "deplorables" in that speech. (Did she say it in more than one?). But the drum beat of Trump's campaign was that government sucks, and the liberal parts of it suck the hardest. Then he turned out to be the exact piece of **** people said him to be, to the point that previously well-respected Fox News talking heads left camp already. That does say something.

These are some good reflections that can be applied to many different subjects of activism regardless of which side you fall on.

Excommunicate Me from the Church of Social Justice.

Mr Person said:

I've yet to see a President worse than Trump.



Look, we both know that you're going to see comments against a conservative President worse and I'm going to see comments against a liberal President worse; that's true no matter what one personally wills oneself to do. That's built into human brain structure. But let's not lose sight of the fact that every President is different; I say that because, yes you are correct that Trump is treated the worst (at least in my lifetime), but because I think I'm correct that he is in fact the worst in my lifetime, right out of the gate.

It also doesn't help that his campaign was centered around demonizing all politicians, with a lesser center around demonizing the left. And yes, I know, Hillary said "deplorables" in that speech. (Did she say it in more than one?). But the drum beat of Trump's campaign was that government sucks, and the liberal parts of it suck the hardest. Then he turned out to be the exact piece of **** people said him to be, to the point that previously well-respected Fox News talking heads left camp already. That does say something.

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Carter was worse.

Mr Person said:

I've yet to see a President worse than Trump.



Look, we both know that you're going to see comments against a conservative President worse and I'm going to see comments against a liberal President worse; that's true no matter what one personally wills oneself to do. That's built into human brain structure. But let's not lose sight of the fact that every President is different; I say that because, yes you are correct that Trump is treated the worst (at least in my lifetime), but because I think I'm correct that he is in fact the worst in my lifetime, right out of the gate.

It also doesn't help that his campaign was centered around demonizing all politicians, with a lesser center around demonizing the left. And yes, I know, Hillary said "deplorables" in that speech. (Did she say it in more than one?). But the drum beat of Trump's campaign was that government sucks, and the liberal parts of it suck the hardest. Then he turned out to be the exact piece of **** people said him to be, to the point that previously well-respected Fox News talking heads left camp already. That does say something.

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You know what dude, LBJ was destroyed for his conduct of the Vietnam war and was only recognized later for his Civil Rights initiatives. Nixon was destroyed by Watergate only to be recognized for opening up to China and making the first moves with the USSR towards real de-nuclearization and detente. Carter took a beating for the Iran hostage crisis only to be recognized later for getting Sadat and Begin together in the Camp David accords. Lincoln was despised by almost everybody and found in himself the man who re-affirmed what America really stands for. You may not like the guy, I'm frankly not sure if I do or not, but I support the office of the presidency and whoever the occupant is. Don't be so quick to rush to judgement. He's the president and the country should give him a fair shake. History will judge the outcome, we'll just be the witnesses and pontificate through the whole process until it's behind us.