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Remember when Ted Kennedy was colluding with the Russians?

code1211 said:
So St. Ted is a sinner?

Who'da thunk it?
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Soooo desperate.

Not even close to similar. Read your own article.

During the peak of the cold war Ted wanted Andropov to have interviews on US television stations so to lower the dehuminization of one side to the other which would make public will to go to war more difficult. It's not like he arranged loads of meetings that were unreported then asked Andropov to provide a back channel for communications on russian equipment to hide it from American eyes then went on TV and flat out begged them to hack us.... and so on... and so on...

Ted's no saint but on this matter, he is a saint compared to what this administration is doing.
 
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Tigerace117 said:
Glad to see the usual suspects are spewing their idiocy.

But hey, glad to see your show of support for groups and brutal dictators like the Taliban, Saddam Hussein, Moamar Gaddafi, Fidel Castro, Manuel Noriega......the list just goes on and on and on.

Really shows you how much hatred for the people of those countries CTers have.
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The poster you are responding to, with a little research, can probably add at least a half dozen more sovereign nation we have decided to intervene in. Many with little or no regard to the 'will of the people.'
 
Rexedgar said:
The poster you are responding to, with a little research, can probably add at least a half dozen more sovereign nation we have decided to intervene in. Many with little or no regard to the 'will of the people.'
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Believe it or not, most people don't actually want to live under the reign of a brutal strongman. That's why all the heroes of the anti American bloc almost always had to take power via force, and kept it also via force. Saddam? Force. Gaddafi? Force. Castro? Lots of force.

Americans who never have to live under those regimes don't seem to have a problem with defending them though.
 
mrpeanut said:
it is an awfully strange defense. It's completely built around the fact that the trump administration is doing things that are similar to people the right has been demonizing for years. Yet somehow this is supposed to excuse the administration's actions. It's a weird world.
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iokiyar
 
poweRob said:
During the peak of the cold war Ted wanted Andropov to have interviews on US television stations so to lower the dehuminization of one side to the other which would make public will to go to war more difficult.
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Thanks for the info. These Trump supporters are digging up stuff so old many of us were either children or not alive yet.

The fact is Trump is a classic example of a hustler/con artist. In another time he would be selling tonics out of a horse drawn carriage. There's a sucker born every minute.

“It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.”


― Mark Twain
 
Tigerace117 said:
Believe it or not, most people don't actually want to live under the reign of a brutal strongman. That's why all the heroes of the anti American bloc almost always had to take power via force, and kept it also via force. Saddam? Force. Gaddafi? Force. Castro? Lots of force.

Americans who never have to live under those regimes don't seem to have a problem with defending them though.
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No defense of those regimes. My concern is with the US policy of interference in other countries politics. Your examples of Saddam Hussein and Mumar (sp?) Ghadaffi (sp?), we got right up in their business. How did that work out for the people of those countries? Want to wager if there was poll conducted, how would the populace vote? As a young man, I was all about "my country, right or wrong." When you pile up some miles in the rear view mirror, you come to realize that your country doesn't always have 'your' best interests in mind when they (US) embark on a course of action re. international politics. "Our way" doesn't always translate to the rest of the world. Too many people go to sleep hungry all over the world. I was going to say 'bed', but they probably have no clue what a bed is.
 
Rexedgar said:
No defense of those regimes. My concern is with the US policy of interference in other countries politics.
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I find it strange how we Americans casually ignore the fact that we helped overthrow the democratically elected Iranian government and installed the Shah as a puppet. Then when the Iranian people revolted and got angry at us, we demonized them for it. It's insane. But it is what it is.

And I would bet that 90% of Americans don't know about the Iranian passenger jet that we accidentally shot down. Could you imagine if Iran had accidentally shot down one of our passenger jets?

Also, Iran hates Al Qaeda and ISIS even more than we do. You won't find any Iranian suicide bombers or terrorists in Europe or the U.S.

Yet, we're best buds with Saudi Arabia, the source of most Islamic extremism.

That's American foreign policy.
 
Rexedgar said:
No defense of those regimes. My concern is with the US policy of interference in other countries politics. Your examples of Saddam Hussein and Mumar (sp?) Ghadaffi (sp?), we got right up in their business. How did that work out for the people of those countries? Want to wager if there was poll conducted, how would the populace vote? As a young man, I was all about "my country, right or wrong." When you pile up some miles in the rear view mirror, you come to realize that your country doesn't always have 'your' best interests in mind when they (US) embark on a course of action re. international politics. "Our way" doesn't always translate to the rest of the world. Too many people go to sleep hungry all over the world. I was going to say 'bed', but they probably have no clue what a bed is.
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When you start killing your own people en masse, when you invade your neighbors, when you have your men conduct terrorist attacks in the west......then you become everybody's problem. You lose any right to try and tell other people to mind their own business when you are committing criminal atrocities.

I've seen Gaddafi's name spelled a dozen different ways; it's ultimately not a big deal.

I'm sure if you conducted a poll asking whether they would rather be gassed or not, their answer would be....or not.
 
SonOfDaedalus said:
I find it strange how we Americans casually ignore the fact that we helped overthrow the democratically elected Iranian government and installed the Shah as a puppet. Then when the Iranian people revolted and got angry at us, we demonized them for it. It's insane. But it is what it is.

And I would bet that 90% of Americans don't know about the Iranian passenger jet that we accidentally shot down. Could you imagine if Iran had accidentally shot down one of our passenger jets?

Also, Iran hates Al Qaeda and ISIS even more than we do. You won't find any Iranian suicide bombers or terrorists in Europe or the U.S.

Yet, we're best buds with Saudi Arabia, the source of most Islamic extremism.

That's American foreign policy.
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The problem, of course, is that Mossaddegh was growing more and more reliant on the Tudeh to stay in power, and that was never to going to end well.

Gee bud, it's not so much because they "got angry" as it is because they stormed our embassy, took diplomatic personnel hostage, and have then spent the next couple decades sponsoring terrorists across the Middle East.

Iranian backed terrorists routinely blew up US and Israeli targets, so I guess you would know how we would react.

False. Iranian backed terrorists have routinely launched attacks against US and Western targets.

Yep, US policy is not to appease one of the world's biggest sponsors of terrorism.
 
Tigerace117 said:
When you start killing your own people en masse, when you invade your neighbors, when you have your men conduct terrorist attacks in the west......then you become everybody's problem. You lose any right to try and tell other people to mind their own business when you are committing criminal atrocities.

I've seen Gaddafi's name spelled a dozen different ways; it's ultimately not a big deal.

I'm sure if you conducted a poll asking whether they would rather be gassed or not, their answer would be....or not.
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"Conducting terrorist attacks in the west?" You aren't referencing 9/11 here are you? My point, which you have avoided, is has life improved in Libya and Iraq since we have intervened?
George Bush, the elder, had the sense not to push on to Baghdad after driving Iraq out of Kuwait. There was no exit strategy and there doesn't seem to be one now. It pains me to bring it up, but how do you justify to a fallen serviceman's family, that he or she did not die in vain in the Iraq war. How many towns were liberated by US Army or Marines only to have to be reliberated in this latest version of US intervention. Sure the regimes were not perfect, but I am interested to hear your opinion as to how the population of either Libya or Iraq is enjoying an improved life.

The US should put it's own house in order before we attempt to dictate to anyone else. The events of the last two years or so, show that we have a long way to go to reclaim any moral high ground.

On another tangent, a Tomahawk missle attack and a MOAB bomb, without some sort of a follow up strategy is just so much peeing in the wind.
 
Remember when Dick Nixon treasonously colluded with the South Vietnamese during the 1968 election, sabotaging peace talks and costing 22,000 more American soldiers their lives ?
 
finebead said:
If you thought it was despicable and treasonous of Ted back then (and of course the right would have been yelling it at the top of their lungs), then surely it is despicable and treasonous NOW!
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They forget the Nixon treason in 1968, as well as that of Reagan/Bush during the 1980 election .
 
Tigerace117 said:
The problem, of course, is that Mossaddegh was growing more and more reliant on the Tudeh to stay in power, and that was never to going to end well.

Gee bud, it's not so much because they "got angry" as it is because they stormed our embassy, took diplomatic personnel hostage,
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Why wouldn't they storm the embassy of a foreign power that overthrew their democratically elected government and had them live under a puppet dictator for DECADES? Can't you see it from their point of view? Imagine if Iran had overthrown the Eisenhower government and installed a puppet dictator. What do you think would happen to the Iranian embassy once we finally revolted?

Tigerace117 said:
and have then spent the next couple decades sponsoring terrorists across the Middle East.
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Did they sponsor Al Qaeda or ISIS? Were any of the 9/11 terrorists Iranian? What about the terrorists who attacked France? Britain? The Orlando terrorists? Were any of the terrorists who attacked on American ground Iranian?

Explain to me how Iran can be the GREATEST sponsor of terrorism yet none of the major attacks I mentioned have anything to do with Iran? And does Iran spread Wahhabi teachings all over the Middle East like Saudi Arabia does?

Calling Iran a terrorist nation for supporting Hezbollah is like calling America a terrorist nation for supporting the Contras or for supporting the Mujaheddin in Afghanistan against the Soviets.

P.S. Did you know that there are Jewish communities in Iran? How is that possible in a terrorist state?
 
SonOfDaedalus said:
I find it strange how we Americans casually ignore the fact that we helped overthrow the democratically elected Iranian government and installed the Shah as a puppet. Then when the Iranian people revolted and got angry at us, we demonized them for it. It's insane. But it is what it is.

And I would bet that 90% of Americans don't know about the Iranian passenger jet that we accidentally shot down. Could you imagine if Iran had accidentally shot down one of our passenger jets?

Also, Iran hates Al Qaeda and ISIS even more than we do. You won't find any Iranian suicide bombers or terrorists in Europe or the U.S.

Yet, we're best buds with Saudi Arabia, the source of most Islamic extremism.

That's American foreign policy.
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How many people know that Russia shot down that passenger jet over Ukraine? With great power comes great responsibility and the fact that we make mistakes does not change the fact that we have been a force for democracy all over the world. It is a shame that only our failures are being remembered.
 
iguanaman said:
How many people know that Russia shot down that passenger jet over Ukraine? With great power comes great responsibility and the fact that we make mistakes does not change the fact that we have been a force for democracy all over the world. It is a shame that only our failures are being remembered.
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I think it's the stories about our support for dictators and our undermining of democracies we considered socialist/communist that are forgotten. I would say Americans are mostly oblivious to the awful things we did in our quest to fight communism. Looking back, it's obvious that communism would have failed without our intervention. It does't work.
 
Bucky said:
Did Ted Kennedy seek Soviets' help in effort to defeat Ronald Reagan? KGB memo makes the case | OregonLive.com
But butt...... Reagan was overexagerating when he called the USSR the evil empire!!!!
:lamo
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The current operative statement is that Trump is following in Ted Kennedy's footsteps?

Trump supporters are trumpeting the fact that Trump is like Ted Kennedy?

When you say it out loud, it sounds like they're having to scrape the bottom of the barrel to get something good to say about him—he's acting like Ted Kennedy.

But the tone comes across as though they think that acting like Ted Kennedy is somehow a good thing.

So does the conservative market segment now approve of Ted Kennedy?
Or does the conservative market segment now disapprove of Donal Trump for being like Ted Kennedy?

Or is this one of the "mixed messages"?

Not ling ago the "good news" for Trump supporters seemed to be that the FBI, CIA, NSA, and DNI decided that Russia meddled in our election.
Which sounds like a bad thing.
But they said it like it was a good thing.

Multi-dimensional chess, maybe?
Where the down looks like up?
 
finebead said:
If you thought it was despicable and treasonous of Ted back then (and of course the right would have been yelling it at the top of their lungs), then surely it is despicable and treasonous NOW!
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So you admit, Democrats were playing politics and would treat things differently if the president were a Democrat?
 
SonOfDaedalus said:
I think it's the stories about our support for dictators and our undermining of democracies we considered socialist/communist that are forgotten. I would say Americans are mostly oblivious to the awful things we did in our quest to fight communism. Looking back, it's obvious that communism would have failed without our intervention. It does't work.
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I believe you can trace most of our support of dictators to our mindless support of capitalism and american "interests" which also doesn't work without the proper governmental supervision. The trick is to support freedom while controlling the natural tendencies toward imperialism and it ain't easy. Does it mean we are a failure? Not by a long shot.
 
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Bucky said:
So you admit, Democrats were playing politics and would treat things differently if the president were a Democrat?
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If Ted Kennedy was President you might have a point. If he had a meeting with Russians to discuss dirt on his opponent, that would be much more serious than finding some memo in the Kremlin. That I admit.
 
Bucky said:
So you admit, Democrats were playing politics and would treat things differently if the president were a Democrat?
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No, we don't know that. Ted did not get elected president. There was no indication that most of his sr. leadership team was actively meeting with russians, like Donald Jr., Manafort, Kushner, Flynn. This Trump thing is much more pervasive. Ted reportedly offered to advise the russians on SALT talks to limit nuclear weapons (a good thing) and to get a russian diplomat a spot on US TV. He did not agree to back off of russian aggression in a sovereign nation like Ukriane, like Trump's people did at the repub national convention. The russian memo's on the Trump talks have not come out yet.
 
iguanaman said:
If Ted Kennedy was President you might have a point. If he had a meeting with Russians to discuss dirt on his opponent, that would be much more serious than finding some memo in the Kremlin. That I admit.
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This crap was brought up months ago by someone else and it's amazing how much trumpettes will believe anything out of the KGB long before they will believe anything out of any American intel agency. Yet they will parade the banner of "patriotism" around as if they have the high ground there.
 
poweRob said:
This crap was brought up months ago by someone else and it's amazing how much trumpettes will believe anything out of the KGB long before they will believe anything out of any American intel agency. Yet they will parade the banner of "patriotism" around as if they have the high ground there.
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trumposters should be paying homage to the 22,000 extra American soldiers who had to die in Vietnam due to Nixon's treason during the 1968 election. I was a sophomore in HS when that SOB was first elected .
 
poweRob said:
This crap was brought up months ago by someone else and it's amazing how much trumpettes will believe anything out of the KGB long before they will believe anything out of any American intel agency. Yet they will parade the banner of "patriotism" around as if they have the high ground there.
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American intel agency???

SH has WMDs
 
Bucky said:
So you admit, Democrats were playing politics and would treat things differently if the president were a Democrat?
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Which Democratic presidents performed the treason of Nixon during the 1968 election and the treason of Reagan/Bush during the 1980 election. trump just followed the leaders that LBJ and Tip O'Neill wouldn't prosecute .
 
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