Centrists, Independents, Moderates, and Libertarians

How can you sit there looking at what has gone on in the last decade or so, particularly what the Republican party is doing under Donald Trump and continue to convince yourself that Both major political parties are equally bad? How can you honestly look at yourself in the mirror and say Hillary would have been just as bad as Trump?

Under a Democrat Bill Clinton this country not only survived but it thrived in one of the most prosperous decades in all of American history. Under a Republican Bush we ended up in the middle of two prolonged wars, and in the worst economic disaster since the great depression. Under another Democrat Obama we crawled out of that disaster, killed Bin Laden, passed comprehensive Health care reform despite widespread racism and obstruction by the Republican party. Now we see the republican party replacing President Obama obvious lying demagogue with serious mental issues.

What exactly is it about remaining in the center that makes you feel like a smart person?

Do you have a check list in your mind some where that says "sure Republicans did this, but Democrats did this other thing and that's just as bad." What's on it exactly? Did democrats kick your puppy or something?

I myself would have probably considered myself a libertarian as recently as 2006, but just cannot grasp how someone could look at the disastrous Bush administration, the incredibly successful Obama administration, the disgusting piece of this Trump administration, and say still say to themselves, "I don't know, I'm still kind of on the fence here."

MrWonka said:

How can you sit there looking at what has gone on in the last decade or so, particularly what the Republican party is doing under Donald Trump and continue to convince yourself that Both major political parties are equally bad? How can you honestly look at yourself in the mirror and say Hillary would have been just as bad as Trump?

Under a Democrat Bill Clinton this country not only survived but it thrived in one of the most prosperous decades in all of American history. Under a Republican Bush we ended up in the middle of two prolonged wars, and in the worst economic disaster since the great depression. Under another Democrat Obama we crawled out of that disaster, killed Bin Laden, passed comprehensive Health care reform despite widespread racism and obstruction by the Republican party. Now we see the republican party replacing President Obama obvious lying demagogue with serious mental issues.

What exactly is it about remaining in the center that makes you feel like a smart person?

Do you have a check list in your mind some where that says "sure Republicans did this, but Democrats did this other thing and that's just as bad." What's on it exactly? Did democrats kick your puppy or something?

I myself would have probably considered myself a libertarian as recently as 2006, but just cannot grasp how someone could look at the disastrous Bush administration, the incredibly successful Obama administration, the disgusting piece of this Trump administration, and say still say to themselves, "I don't know, I'm still kind of on the fence here."

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When you selectively edit information like that, no wonder one can be so partisan.

I'd say my biggest complaint with liberals in general, and Democrats in particular, is the seeming inability to take responsibility for liberal/Democrat actions. The foundation of, well, everything, rests on responsibility and integrity, of which I find neither the Republicans nor the Democrats to have any of.

MrWonka said:

Under a Democrat Bill Clinton this country not only survived but it thrived in one of the most prosperous decades in all of American history.

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To be fair, Clinton was in office during the dotcom boom and for some of the best years of the real estate cycle. He also went along with the Republicans and signed NAFTA and the Telecommunications Act which hurt us economically/democratically in the long run.

But I do agree that the parties are not exactly on equal footing in their 'evilness.'

MrWonka said:

How can you sit there looking at what has gone on in the last decade or so, particularly what the Republican party is doing under Donald Trump and continue to convince yourself that Both major political parties are equally bad? How can you honestly look at yourself in the mirror and say Hillary would have been just as bad as Trump?

Under a Democrat Bill Clinton this country not only survived but it thrived in one of the most prosperous decades in all of American history. Under a Republican Bush we ended up in the middle of two prolonged wars, and in the worst economic disaster since the great depression. Under another Democrat Obama we crawled out of that disaster, killed Bin Laden, passed comprehensive Health care reform despite widespread racism and obstruction by the Republican party. Now we see the republican party replacing President Obama obvious lying demagogue with serious mental issues.

What exactly is it about remaining in the center that makes you feel like a smart person?

Do you have a check list in your mind some where that says "sure Republicans did this, but Democrats did this other thing and that's just as bad." What's on it exactly? Did democrats kick your puppy or something?

I myself would have probably considered myself a libertarian as recently as 2006, but just cannot grasp how someone could look at the disastrous Bush administration, the incredibly successful Obama administration, the disgusting piece of this Trump administration, and say still say to themselves, "I don't know, I'm still kind of on the fence here."

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It's easy to see both parties as equally bad when neither wants to play nice with the other. Not everyone views the comprehensive healthcare reform as a success. It has done a lot of good, but has ben FAR from perfect. it has not worked nearly as well as has been promised by the successful Obama administration.
Both sides like to cherry pick information that suits their needs, and your post is just as guilty.
The right and left are guilty of playing the blame game. Everything wrong is someone else's fault, and everything right is theirs.

Gonzo Rodeo said:

I'd say my biggest complaint with liberals in general, and Democrats in particular, is the seeming inability to take responsibility for liberal/Democrat actions.

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So, do you believe President Obama ordered the bombing of a hospital? Did military advisers tell him they were going to bomb a hospital, and he gave the go ahead? I know he specifically ordered the mission that killed Bin Laden. Mistakes happen. Even successful missions like the one that killed Bin Laden resulted in the loss of a helicopter, but is there some reason to believe there was something wrong with the general orders given by President Obama?

MrWonka said:

How can you sit there looking at what has gone on in the last decade or so, particularly what the Republican party is doing under Donald Trump and continue to convince yourself that Both major political parties are equally bad? How can you honestly look at yourself in the mirror and say Hillary would have been just as bad as Trump?

Under a Democrat Bill Clinton this country not only survived but it thrived in one of the most prosperous decades in all of American history. Under a Republican Bush we ended up in the middle of two prolonged wars, and in the worst economic disaster since the great depression. Under another Democrat Obama we crawled out of that disaster, killed Bin Laden, passed comprehensive Health care reform despite widespread racism and obstruction by the Republican party. Now we see the republican party replacing President Obama obvious lying demagogue with serious mental issues.

What exactly is it about remaining in the center that makes you feel like a smart person?

Do you have a check list in your mind some where that says "sure Republicans did this, but Democrats did this other thing and that's just as bad." What's on it exactly? Did democrats kick your puppy or something?

I myself would have probably considered myself a libertarian as recently as 2006, but just cannot grasp how someone could look at the disastrous Bush administration, the incredibly successful Obama administration, the disgusting piece of this Trump administration, and say still say to themselves, "I don't know, I'm still kind of on the fence here."

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It's not that I feel smart for not following either party blindly. Support is a bit like respect. It is earned, and it should be mutual. I am not required to give it to anyone, and, in the absence of anything worthy of it, choose not to. When one of the parties stops chasing donations and trying to find ways to squeeze more money out of everyone else, let me know and I'll listen to what they have to say.

There is, however, a difference between "supports" and "is willing to vote for", I had 2 realistic choices back in November and a couple options that boiled down to me tossing my vote away in protest. This is the choice that the 2 political parties count on every voter facing. The message is loud and clear "We don't care about you any more than the minimum required to secure your vote, and even then we'll be pushing it".

ModerateRN said:

It's easy to see both parties as equally bad when neither wants to play nice with the other.

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So if Batman and the Joker weren't playing nice with each other would you argue that both are equally as bad?

How about Superman and Lex Luther? Spiderman and Dr. Octopus?

This is precisely what I'm talking about. If you walked around the corner, found two random people you didn't know in a fight, you'd probably assume that both were equally to blame for that fight until you saw something that indicated which one had truly started it. But what more seriously needs to happen for you to realize Republicans started this fight?

ModerateRN said:

Not everyone views the comprehensive healthcare reform as a success. It has done a lot of good, but has ben FAR from perfect. it has not worked nearly as well as has been promised by the successful Obama administration.

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What piece of major legislation has ever been released that was perfect from the outset? Has Microsoft ever come out with a version of Windows that was bug free? Do all iphones work flawlessly right out of the gate?

The difference is that when Microsoft or Apple have bugs in their system, they are allowed to fix them. Republicans didn't let President Obama fix them because they wanted you to not like it. They knew you would blame President Obama even though it was actually Republicans fault.

ModerateRN said:

Both sides like to cherry pick information that suits their needs, and your post is just as guilty.
The right and left are guilty of playing the blame game. Everything wrong is someone else's fault, and everything right is theirs.

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That's true of all people include yourself I'm willing to bet. If there was a third party that got control and things went bad what exactly do you think they would do? But overall when you look at the general results that are produced by the two parties do you seriously think it's even?

MrWonka said:

How can you sit there looking at what has gone on in the last decade or so, particularly what the Republican party is doing under Donald Trump and continue to convince yourself that Both major political parties are equally bad? How can you honestly look at yourself in the mirror and say Hillary would have been just as bad as Trump?

Under a Democrat Bill Clinton this country not only survived but it thrived in one of the most prosperous decades in all of American history. Under a Republican Bush we ended up in the middle of two prolonged wars, and in the worst economic disaster since the great depression. Under another Democrat Obama we crawled out of that disaster, killed Bin Laden, passed comprehensive Health care reform despite widespread racism and obstruction by the Republican party. Now we see the republican party replacing President Obama obvious lying demagogue with serious mental issues.

What exactly is it about remaining in the center that makes you feel like a smart person?

Do you have a check list in your mind some where that says "sure Republicans did this, but Democrats did this other thing and that's just as bad." What's on it exactly? Did democrats kick your puppy or something?

I myself would have probably considered myself a libertarian as recently as 2006, but just cannot grasp how someone could look at the disastrous Bush administration, the incredibly successful Obama administration, the disgusting piece of this Trump administration, and say still say to themselves, "I don't know, I'm still kind of on the fence here."

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I think we can agree neither party can please everyone. Can we agree that the middle class gets the screwing over nearly every time regardless if there is a Dem or GOP'er in there.

Obamacare screwed the middle class. The poor have "free" healthcare. The rich can buy whatever they want. But it's the middle class who foots the bill. To place all the blame on one party is wrong.

shagg said:

I had 2 realistic choices back in November and a couple options that boiled down to me tossing my vote away in protest.

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What exactly did your protest accomplish besides allowing the most evil of two evil's get control of your country?

Do you think there was a time throughout history when everyone in the country got to vote for the exact candidate they wanted?

I don't like how democrats sell an idea as freedom when it's really just government control.

When a libertarian says they will legalize pot they mean just that, but when a democrat says it they mean they will force you to have a license to sell it, they will tax you if you buy it, they will control how much of you can buy at once, they will control what kind of pot can be sold, and that those people on the street selling it will still be arrested.

What I don't like about democrats is that hide their desire to control every aspect of our lives under propaganda of freedom and equality. What I don't like about democrats is that they consistently violate the US Constitution under bull**** understanding of the commerce clause, the tax and spending clause, the second amendment, and the first amendment. I also don't like how they consistently support involuntary servitude and control over private property, while at the same ****ing time going on about the woman's right to choose. Oh and yeah, I don't like how the party is all anti-corporations and yet they give them favors all the time like how they banned regular light bulbs because GE wanted it. I could list things about democrats that I don't like all day.

As for republicans, they're flat out frauds. They pretend to support small government but all they ever do is support large government at every turn. They pretend to oppose democrats, but they can't help themselves to support funding of things like Planned Parenthood and other democratic accomplishments. Republicans are not conservatives, but statist pricks that only care for their own power and lie to their supporters face about it.

Henrin said:

I don't like how democrats sell an idea as freedom when it's really just government control.

When a libertarian says they will legalize pot they mean just that, but when a democrat says it they mean they will force you to have a license to sell it, they will tax you if you buy it, they will control how much of you can buy at once, they will control what kind of pot can be sold, and that those people on the street selling it will still be arrested.

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One of the arguments libertarians always made about pot is over the tax revenue it will bring in...

DamnYankee said:

I think we can agree neither party can please everyone. Can we agree that the middle class gets the screwing over nearly every time regardless if there is a Dem or GOP'er in there.

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Ummm..... No, the Democratic Party specifically caters most of it's policies directly for the Middle class.

DamnYankee said:

Obamacare screwed the middle class. The poor have "free" healthcare. The rich can buy whatever they want. But it's the middle class who foots the bill. To place all the blame on one party is wrong.

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Ummm....Yeah, that's a load of crap. The upper middle class might have shouldered a degree of burden, but the majority of Americans benefited under Obamacare whether they realize it or not. The unfortunate problem is that so many Americans had very poor health insurance coverage that when rules were put in place to make their care better the cost went up for it, and it made it seem bad, but in reality you got much better coverage than you had before.

Furthermore there were additional fixes that Democrats would have loved to make that would have radically improved things for the middle class, however they were blocked by Republicans.

Geoist said:

One of the arguments libertarians always made about pot is over the tax revenue it will bring in...

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You missed a few spots.

When a libertarian says they will legalize pot they mean just that, but when a democrat says it they mean they will force you to have a license to sell it, they will tax you if you buy it, they will control how much of you can buy at once, they will control what kind of pot can be sold, and that those people on the street selling it will still be arrested.

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There, fixed it for you.

Henrin said:

I don't like how democrats sell an idea as freedom when it's really just government control.

When a libertarian says they will legalize pot they mean just that, but when a democrat says it they mean they will force you to have a license to sell it, they will tax you if you buy it, they will control how much of you can buy at once, they will control what kind of pot can be sold, and that those people on the street selling it will still be arrested.

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That's a load of crap. When you listen to Ron Paul he says we should legalize Marijuana and REGULATE marijuana.

Henrin said:

What I don't like about democrats is that hide their desire to control every aspect of our lives under propaganda of freedom and equality.

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Also a load of crap. I think I've said this before, but you should try learning about how Nash Equilibrium's work.

Henrin said:

What I don't like about democrats is that they consistently violate the US Constitution under bull**** understanding of the commerce clause,

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Again, that would be YOU who is mis-understanding the commerce clause.

Henrin said:

like how they banned regular light bulbs because GE wanted it. I could list things about democrats that I don't like all day.

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They banned regular light bulbs because it was the best way to make investments in better light bulbs worth while. Again you need to learn how Nash Equilibrium's work.

Jesse Booth said:

You missed a few spots.



There, fixed it for you.

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I'm confused. What did you fix?

Geoist said:

One of the arguments libertarians always made about pot is over the tax revenue it will bring in...

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Which is weird since they always bitch about taxes and how it enslaves people.

MrWonka said:

How can you sit there looking at what has gone on in the last decade or so, particularly what the Republican party is doing under Donald Trump and continue to convince yourself that Both major political parties are equally bad? How can you honestly look at yourself in the mirror and say Hillary would have been just as bad as Trump?

Under a Democrat Bill Clinton this country not only survived but it thrived in one of the most prosperous decades in all of American history. Under a Republican Bush we ended up in the middle of two prolonged wars, and in the worst economic disaster since the great depression. Under another Democrat Obama we crawled out of that disaster, killed Bin Laden, passed comprehensive Health care reform despite widespread racism and obstruction by the Republican party. Now we see the republican party replacing President Obama obvious lying demagogue with serious mental issues.

What exactly is it about remaining in the center that makes you feel like a smart person?

Do you have a check list in your mind some where that says "sure Republicans did this, but Democrats did this other thing and that's just as bad." What's on it exactly? Did democrats kick your puppy or something?

I myself would have probably considered myself a libertarian as recently as 2006, but just cannot grasp how someone could look at the disastrous Bush administration, the incredibly successful Obama administration, the disgusting piece of this Trump administration, and say still say to themselves, "I don't know, I'm still kind of on the fence here."

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Neither want what I want, nor have my interest at heart.
They're just trying to win, until next time, then attempt to win again.

No thanks.

MrWonka said:

How can you sit there looking at what has gone on in the last decade or so, particularly what the Republican party is doing under Donald Trump and continue to convince yourself that Both major political parties are equally bad? How can you honestly look at yourself in the mirror and say Hillary would have been just as bad as Trump?

Under a Democrat Bill Clinton this country not only survived but it thrived in one of the most prosperous decades in all of American history. Under a Republican Bush we ended up in the middle of two prolonged wars, and in the worst economic disaster since the great depression. Under another Democrat Obama we crawled out of that disaster, killed Bin Laden, passed comprehensive Health care reform despite widespread racism and obstruction by the Republican party. Now we see the republican party replacing President Obama obvious lying demagogue with serious mental issues.

What exactly is it about remaining in the center that makes you feel like a smart person?

Do you have a check list in your mind some where that says "sure Republicans did this, but Democrats did this other thing and that's just as bad." What's on it exactly? Did democrats kick your puppy or something?

I myself would have probably considered myself a libertarian as recently as 2006, but just cannot grasp how someone could look at the disastrous Bush administration, the incredibly successful Obama administration, the disgusting piece of this Trump administration, and say still say to themselves, "I don't know, I'm still kind of on the fence here."

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"Hey everybody, watch while I rewrite history, cherry-pick facts and throw out false generalizations."

poweRob said:

Which is weird since they always bitch about taxes and how it enslaves people.

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It was always an interesting argument considering who it was coming from.

Personally, as a left libertarian, I have no problem with a reasonable tax on pot. Most pigouvian taxes can be seen as the cost for the harms inflicted on society. It is the same reason why many libertarians support some form of pollution tax.

Geoist said:

It was always an interesting argument considering who it was coming from.

Personally, as a left libertarian, I have no problem with a reasonable tax on pot. Most pigouvian taxes can be seen as the cost for the harms inflicted on society. It is the same reason why many libertarians support some form of pollution tax.

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I had a hand-me-down libertarian t-shirt that said on the front "Taxation = Slavery" and on the back a ton of quotes from the founding fathers. :lol:

Geoist said:

I'm confused. What did you fix?

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You glossed over the rest of his points about the "legalization" of marijuana, solely to attack his comment on it being taxed. All of the extra little bits build up to a lot of unnecessary red tape.

I look at it like this, Republicans at least say they want to reduce government (still waiting to see that ever play out), the Democrats run on increasing government.

It is like having a choice of 2 doors: One with a sign saying "Man eating lion behind this door" and another with a sign "Possibly a man eating lion behind this door".

The left thinking the right is stupid and getting played.
The right thinking the left is stupid and getting played.

The reason many including myself stay in the center is because we know without a doubt you partisan hacks are idiots being played . Suckers

MrWonka said:

That's a load of crap. When you listen to Ron Paul he says we should legalize Marijuana and REGULATE marijuana.

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I never heard him say that. :shrug:

Also a load of crap. I think I've said this before, but you should try learning about how Nash Equilibrium's work.

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Is there something about it that you think is important?

Again, that would be YOU who is mis-understanding the commerce clause.

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No, I don't think so.

They banned regular light bulbs because it was the best way to make investments in better light bulbs worth while. Again you need to learn how Nash Equilibrium's work.

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You mean it was best to ban cheaper more widely used products, so overpriced not desirable products could gain market share.

MrWonka said:

So, do you believe President Obama ordered the bombing of a hospital? Did military advisers tell him they were going to bomb a hospital, and he gave the go ahead? I know he specifically ordered the mission that killed Bin Laden. Mistakes happen. Even successful missions like the one that killed Bin Laden resulted in the loss of a helicopter, but is there some reason to believe there was something wrong with the general orders given by President Obama?

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If it had been Bush's order, the talking points would be violating the sovereignty of a nuclear power without their permission or knowledge (what a cowboy, that Bush), and all of the women who were shot during the raid (what a woman-hater, that Bush).

That's the problem with cherry picking: it's one step removed from out-and-out lying.