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There ya go. Very little difference. You already have a narrative against what you think Bush *would* have done.
How old are you exactly? Do you simply not remember the Bush administration and how incompetent it was?

According to reports when discussing the Bin Laden raid most of the brass in the room was advocating for a drone strike. Obama was the one who put his foot down and realized that was a bad idea. It's not a stretch to assume Bush wouldn't have been smart enough to do that at all.


You have already decided.

Don't you see the problem with that?

No, because I lived through it. I know exactly how incompetent Bush was. The Republican party is brimming with warmongers who think they have a god given right to just go around blowing up anything they want so long as it's on foreign soil. They have no ability to recognize nuance and what makes once scenario different than another. It's all black and white to them. I don't believe this because I'm a democrat, I'm a democrat because I KNOW THIS.
 
How old are you exactly? Do you simply not remember the Bush administration and how incompetent it was?

According to reports when discussing the Bin Laden raid most of the brass in the room was advocating for a drone strike. Obama was the one who put his foot down and realized that was a bad idea. It's not a stretch to assume Bush wouldn't have been smart enough to do that at all.




No, because I lived through it. I know exactly how incompetent Bush was. The Republican party is brimming with warmongers who think they have a god given right to just go around blowing up anything they want so long as it's on foreign soil. They have no ability to recognize nuance and what makes once scenario different than another. It's all black and white to them. I don't believe this because I'm a democrat, I'm a democrat because I KNOW THIS.

Seeing as how I enlisted in May of 2001, I'd say I'm old enough to remember. It was my war, and all.

The thing is, you are continuing th circular reasoning that keeps leading you back to the same place. You are filtering out the information that doesnt conform, and then declaring that you have a well informed opinion.

If you start from "Bush is bad," you've already filtered out everything else and you're never going to end up anywhere else. That's how circular reasoning works.
 
Seeing as how I enlisted in May of 2001, I'd say I'm old enough to remember. It was my war, and all.

The thing is, you are continuing th circular reasoning that keeps leading you back to the same place. You are filtering out the information that doesnt conform, and then declaring that you have a well informed opinion.

If you start from "Bush is bad," you've already filtered out everything else and you're never going to end up anywhere else. That's how circular reasoning works.

Bush was pretty bad, though ... #shrug
 
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But Bush was pretty bad, though ... #shrug

In some regards, yes. In others, no.

But if you have a filter firmly in place to sift out the good, well, I can see how you'd only come up with that.

That's kind of my whole point.
 
Hillary Clinton has more experience than probably any other candidate in history. She was essentially an aid for her husband during his time as Governor and President. She served two terms as a Senator, and four years as Secretary of State a job she left with a 60% approval rating. Hillary Clinton was not a bad candidate you just let Republicans convince you she was.

I let no one convince of that. Hillary Clinton did that herself and only by herself. As a retired military man who spent 46 years in communications, 20 active duty, 26 as a Department of the Army Civilian I know how communications works and how security of classified information is to be handled. Hillary didn't give a dang she put over 2,000 classified national security messages at risk. Worst yet was the 22 Top Secret Special Access Program messages she put at risk. Those were codeword message dealing with intelligence and covert operations. Those type of messages have their own network, no interfaces between them, NIPR, SIPR or any other network. Those types of messages can only be viewed in a SCIF or ACE and can't be copied, or at least against regulations and the laws of the United States. For those types of messages to appear on an unclassified system or server, one had to illegally copy, thumb drive maybe, which also is not authorized in a SCIF or ACE or someone had to hand copy, write the information out and then retype that information on another computer system, NIPR for it to get onto her sever.

Then Hillary after all of that had the gall to laugh about it and blame it on a vast right wing conspiracy. Anyone else would have immediately had their security clearance revoked and an immediate investigation. That would have happen with just one message, not 22. Not reporting a classified message, confidential, secret or what have you showing up on an unclassified network, server, computer is also grounds for anyone else to have their security clearance pulled and a lengthy investigation and punishment for not reporting the classified information on an unclassified computer or unsecure server.

Anyone who laughs at putting our nation's security at risk as she did, well you get the idea. If not, there is certainly something wrong with you where partisanship takes precedent's or loyalty to a political party and candidate ranks above this nation. What is worst is the FBI never investigated as to who would either write down all that TS SAP information in a SCIF or ACE and then reintroduce it into an unsecure or unclassified network to get onto Hillary's server.

That my friend is what turned me against Hillary. That is why I would vote for Attila the Hun over her. Attila would at least be a bit security minded. The problem is 99.9% or there about of Americans have no idea how our Classified National Security System works. Only someone who has been involved in these things does which isn't that many. I would imagine almost everyone of them voted against Hillary because they knew what she put at risk. Then to laugh about and joke about putting our classified national security information at risk, you still think she deserved to be president?
 
First, the "appearance of corruption." And Scandal? What scandal exactly besides the ones that were invented by Republicans at Fox News or caused by her husband? I've got some bad news for you, if you are in politics long enough, and people think you're a serious contender for the Presidency your opponents are going to invent scandals to try and tear you down. Just look at what Republicans are trying to do to Bernie right now. They're launching investigations into his wife accusing her of illegally obtaining loans. It's a political hit job. If Republicans knew President Obama was going to win the Democratic primary in 2008, I promise you they would have started launching attacks on him much much earlier.
I am pleasantly surprised to hear you admit how trump is being witch hunted in a long line of witch hunts. Or does this only apply to democrats in your mind?

I am not sure though the server scandal can be completely dismissed as it wasn’t completely without merit. It was a serious misjudgement on her and her teams part and many good people have gone to jail for less. Addressing it more directly would have helped her IMHO.

The Clinton Foundation provides AIDS medication for 3/4 of children in the world with AIDS. If you're using her and her husband's amazing charity work as a reason not to trust her then there's probably something wrong with you. Furthermore Clinton agreed to shut down the charity if she was elected, unlike Trump who frequently used his charity to pay his own legal bills.
The Clinton Foundation may be a wonderful charity. I don’t know. I do now when it financed heavily by foreign governments and lobby groups demonstratively uninterested in the causes chosen it’s concerning to say the least.

Just because it wasn't uncovered via a bull**** investigation
Politics is full of bull**** investigations as you well have expressed, her way of handling it was to spin it. That have might worked before the internet and conservative media. You need to address these things head on now and days. If she is not sorry or repentant, whats going to stop her when she makes a bad misjudgment as president?

It shows a lot about her character she never acknowledges the truth of these matters no matter how much evidence mounted. Integrity matters, it lost Trump a lot of potential supporters as he doesn’t own up [but will do different, so that's something at least] and it certainly lost Hillary a lot of supporters when she did the same[neither in action or word was there contrition at least shown to the public].

It's pretty normal for people to have a personal email account and even a second phone so that their personal matters aren't subject to the same types of security that real important national secrets are.
It's extremely normal for people to have a personal email account…that is not what she did and you know it!

You're only argument against Hillary Clinton is that she's been around a long time.
That will work against her, the same way trump having none worked against him in other ways. There is a Washington bubble that if you buy into too much you lose sight of what real voters think. A long serving politician has to recognize that and find other ways to appear approachable. She failed to find that mix. Trump was able to appear qualified enough…though would have been handed one with Biden in my personal opinion [another very experienced candidate]. Bernie would have been too divisive, its a toss up either way IMHO.

Hillary Clinton was not a bad candidate

So you think there was a lot of enthusiasm around her? Bad candidates is more than a platform. Candidates are the face of that platform. They have to sell they will be able to work with others to make that platform a reality. If you can’t sell it, your a bad candidate and should work on someones team instead.

And what exactly made her radically different than say President Obama?
She lacked vision and charisma. Obama made someone believe he could implement something resembling that platform. Unfortunately he couldn’t in two terms and that hurt Hillary even more so since she did little to modify that policy or talking points to seem more obtainable. Her tagging onto Obama had the added effect of losing her Obama's many detractors some of whom I think could actually have liked her as a Blue Dog. You think George W is popular amongst all republicans and independents? I bet you could get many of his supporter to support you but still distance yourself to avoid losing his detractors who might well have only had a few policy issues difference meaning they be open if you you did back away from those controversial areas.
 
I am pleasantly surprised to hear you admit how trump is being witch hunted in a long line of witch hunts. Or does this only apply to democrats in your mind?

I am not sure though the server scandal can be completely dismissed as it wasn’t completely without merit. It was a serious misjudgement on her and her teams part and many good people have gone to jail for less. Addressing it more directly would have helped her IMHO.


The Clinton Foundation may be a wonderful charity. I don’t know. I do now when it financed heavily by foreign governments and lobby groups demonstratively uninterested in the causes chosen it’s concerning to say the least.


Politics is full of bull**** investigations as you well have expressed, her way of handling it was to spin it. That have might worked before the internet and conservative media. You need to address these things head on now and days. If she is not sorry or repentant, whats going to stop her when she makes a bad misjudgment as president?

It shows a lot about her character she never acknowledges the truth of these matters no matter how much evidence mounted. Integrity matters, it lost Trump a lot of potential supporters as he doesn’t own up [but will do different, so that's something at least] and it certainly lost Hillary a lot of supporters when she did the same[neither in action or word was there contrition at least shown to the public].


It's extremely normal for people to have a personal email account…that is not what she did and you know it!


That will work against her, the same way trump having none worked against him in other ways. There is a Washington bubble that if you buy into too much you lose sight of what real voters think. A long serving politician has to recognize that and find other ways to appear approachable. She failed to find that mix. Trump was able to appear qualified enough…though would have been handed one with Biden in my personal opinion [another very experienced candidate]. Bernie would have been too divisive, its a toss up either way IMHO.



So you think there was a lot of enthusiasm around her? Bad candidates is more than a platform. Candidates are the face of that platform. They have to sell they will be able to work with others to make that platform a reality. If you can’t sell it, your a bad candidate and should work on someones team instead.


She lacked vision and charisma. Obama made someone believe he could implement something resembling that platform. Unfortunately he couldn’t in two terms and that hurt Hillary even more so since she did little to modify that policy or talking points to seem more obtainable. Her tagging onto Obama had the added effect of losing her Obama's many detractors some of whom I think could actually have liked her as a Blue Dog. You think George W is popular amongst all republicans and independents? I bet you could get many of his supporter to support you but still distance yourself to avoid losing his detractors who might well have only had a few policy issues difference meaning they be open if you you did back away from those controversial areas.

Greetings, Conaeolos. :2wave:

Very well said! :thumbs:
 
I am pleasantly surprised to hear you admit how trump is being witch hunted in a long line of witch hunts. Or does this only apply to democrats in your mind?
That's the problem. We don't need to witch hunt Trump. Every day he opens up his mouth or takes to Twitter and say something that borders on out right Treason. Trump Jr's own statements yesterday prove the investigations into the Trump administration are more than valid. Michael Flynn's resignation alone was enough to prove there's something seriously wrong here.

I am not sure though the server scandal can be completely dismissed as it wasn’t completely without merit. It was a serious misjudgement on her and her teams part and many good people have gone to jail for less. Addressing it more directly would have helped her IMHO.
Not following best practices does not come close to the standard for criminality.

The Clinton Foundation may be a wonderful charity. I don’t know. I do now when it financed heavily by foreign governments and lobby groups demonstratively uninterested in the causes chosen it’s concerning to say the least.
Is it enough to claim that Hillary Clinton was a terrible candidate? All that has been offered here is ifs, buts, and maybes. Not single shred of actual credible evidence has been provided to conclude that Hillary Clinton is anything but an honorable public servant who has spent her entire life fighting to improve health care for less fortunate children. Meanwhile there is a veritable mountain of evidence proving beyond a reasonable doubt that every single solitary thing Democrats have been saying about Trump is 100% the truth.

You need to address these things head on now and days. If she is not sorry or repentant, whats going to stop her when she makes a bad misjudgment as president?
You do realize she spent 11 hours testifying in front of congressional Republicans answering every single question they asked her and they couldn't make a single thing stick right?

It shows a lot about her character she never acknowledges the truth of these matters no matter how much evidence mounted.
What are you even talking about? Hillary Clinton has openly admitted that she had a private email server, and she said exactly why she had it, and what it was used for. The Comey investigation backed up virtually every word she said. For the record Politifact.com rated her as the 2nd most honest presidential candidate of the last 15 years. Second only to Obama. Guess who was the most dishonest by a mile?

Integrity matters, it lost Trump a lot of potential supporters as he doesn’t own up [but will do different, so that's something at least] and it certainly lost Hillary a lot of supporters when she did the same[neither in action or word was there contrition at least shown to the public].
Or maybe there really just wasn't much of anything to apologize for and it was all made up and overblown. Three years of investigations into Benghazi, and her email server turned up nothing of any significance whatsoever.

It's extremely normal for people to have a personal email account…that is not what she did and you know it!
Yes, it is. Except when you're the Clinton's you have valid reasons not to trust gmail or hotmail either.

So you think there was a lot of enthusiasm around her?
No, I think the hatred was manufactured out of nothing, and it had more to do with the fact that she was a woman that simply wasn't as naturally charismatic as her husband or President Obama. I wager to you that none of the bull**** excuses people gave for why they didn't like her would have mattered at all if the exact same things had happened to Bill or Obama.

She lacked vision and charisma. Obama made someone believe he could implement something resembling that platform. Unfortunately he couldn’t
So maybe your problem is that you overrate charisma, and should be putting more emphasis on political experience. It sounds like what I'm hearing is not so much that Clinton was a bad candidate, but that millions of Americans are really bad voters.
 
Anyone else would have immediately had their security clearance revoked and an immediate investigation.

A load of bull****. James Comey is a Republican. If he thought for one second he could make something legitimately stick to her I guarantee you he would have tried. You're talking about over 30,000 emails, and some how a handful slipped through that shouldn't be there. I defy you to do anything 30,000 times, and not screw it up at least a hundred times.
 
You said that "Under a Republican Bush we ended up in the middle of two prolonged wars, ...". And while it's true that we "ended up in" those wars during Bush, they had their roots in a Democratic presidency.

First, Bush senior started Desert Shield in 1990 so get your facts that you love so much straight.

Bush orders Operation Desert Shield - Aug 07, 1990 - HISTORY.com

Secondly, while many presidents have been meddling in the middle east for decades they were smart enough to get themselves stuck in full scale protracted wars with no end game let alone two of them. That was 100% W's fault.
 
A load of bull****. James Comey is a Republican. If he thought for one second he could make something legitimately stick to her I guarantee you he would have tried. You're talking about over 30,000 emails, and some how a handful slipped through that shouldn't be there. I defy you to do anything 30,000 times, and not screw it up at least a hundred times.

The military does it. In all my time there may have been a handful of classified messages that ended up in an unclassified network or system. When that happens it must be reported immediately if not sooner.

You're letting your partisanship slip show. Either that or you don't give a darn about national security or are very ignorant of how the systems and networks work. For the later, I can't blame you. For the former, it becomes more important for Clinton or a Democrat to win than taking care of national security. This is why I detest both major parties. It is far more important to them to be a Republican or Democrat than an American. That is what has lead to the polarization we now have in Washington.

Bottom line is Hillary Clinton didn't take national security seriously and Comey said as much. I imagine the fact she was a presidential nominee saved her. It wouldn't have anyone else.

But by saving her instead of having her withdraw and putting a decent candidate in her place, gave us Trump. I suppose you can thank Comey for that too.
 
I let no one convince of that. Hillary Clinton did that herself and only by herself. As a retired military man who spent 46 years in communications, 20 active duty, 26 as a Department of the Army Civilian I know how communications works and how security of classified information is to be handled. Hillary didn't give a dang she put over 2,000 classified national security messages at risk. Worst yet was the 22 Top Secret Special Access Program messages she put at risk. Those were codeword message dealing with intelligence and covert operations. Those type of messages have their own network, no interfaces between them, NIPR, SIPR or any other network. Those types of messages can only be viewed in a SCIF or ACE and can't be copied, or at least against regulations and the laws of the United States. For those types of messages to appear on an unclassified system or server, one had to illegally copy, thumb drive maybe, which also is not authorized in a SCIF or ACE or someone had to hand copy, write the information out and then retype that information on another computer system, NIPR for it to get onto her sever.

Then Hillary after all of that had the gall to laugh about it and blame it on a vast right wing conspiracy. Anyone else would have immediately had their security clearance revoked and an immediate investigation. That would have happen with just one message, not 22. Not reporting a classified message, confidential, secret or what have you showing up on an unclassified network, server, computer is also grounds for anyone else to have their security clearance pulled and a lengthy investigation and punishment for not reporting the classified information on an unclassified computer or unsecure server.

Anyone who laughs at putting our nation's security at risk as she did, well you get the idea. If not, there is certainly something wrong with you where partisanship takes precedent's or loyalty to a political party and candidate ranks above this nation. What is worst is the FBI never investigated as to who would either write down all that TS SAP information in a SCIF or ACE and then reintroduce it into an unsecure or unclassified network to get onto Hillary's server.

That my friend is what turned me against Hillary. That is why I would vote for Attila the Hun over her. Attila would at least be a bit security minded. The problem is 99.9% or there about of Americans have no idea how our Classified National Security System works. Only someone who has been involved in these things does which isn't that many. I would imagine almost everyone of them voted against Hillary because they knew what she put at risk. Then to laugh about and joke about putting our classified national security information at risk, you still think she deserved to be president?

Greetings, Pero. :2wave:

:agree: Perhaps she didn't agree with her campaign people if they tried to reason with her, but she should not have laughed about being criticized for putting national security at risk and blowing it off as unimportant! :thumbdown: Being in politics as long as she was, she should have known better! Her husband understood the political world, and today he is still thought of as one of the great Presidents of our time by a lot of people. Wasn't she paying attention to his way of doing things, or did she just not care enough to bother since everyone was assuring her that she was a shoe-in for the job? Who knows? :doh:
 
1)First, the "appearance of corruption." And Scandal? What sca...

2)Yet. You seriously don't think ...

3)The Clinton Foundation provides AIDS medication for 3/4...

4)But he probably will going forward...

5)Yes he did. President Obama's a millionaire largely because of book sales...

6)How do you know? Just because it wasn't uncovered...


7)Or maybe she just didn't want private conversations about her daughters wedding ...

8)Exactly. You're only argument against Hillary Clinton is that she's been around a long time....

Yeah, I get it. The situations are very different. Republicans attack her unfairly. Obama is/will do some things similar but not quite of the same scale after his presidency than Clinton did before hers. Much of what Obama has done/will do is typical of ex presidents from both camps. She was a terrible candidate, the optics on her were bad under any light spectrum, and the right had a ton of material to play with and they didn't have to work very hard at spinning it negatively. She should never have run for a position that put her in the cross hairs in the first place. The DNC should have realized she was bad for their brand and went with someone else. But she pretty much owned the DNC by that point so they were just taking orders. Again, Trump is her fault (and by extension the DNC's), not any particular voting block. My (and many others) failure to equate her with Obama is her fault, not mine (ours).

1)Never said newer was better, I simply said a clean slate is easier to work with than whatever you want to argue her slate is. No one had to convince anyone Obama's slate was clean, that counts for something.

2)Ex-Presidents almost always do, after the presidency. Usually after they exit politics.

3)Even corrupt charities have to do some good to remain in business. And she never promised to shut down the charity, she promised to sever ties with it, while her daughter ran it, because her daughter would never accept donations made in exchange for her mothers decisions or actions as president.

4)Maybe Bill is the reason she lost then, either way it looked like a crime ring from the outside, and they didn't do anything to dispel the notion. Ignoring accusations at election time is risky business.

5)see #2

6)You could say the same of any candidate. She was exposed, her cronies outed by wikileaks, and she just kept plugging along and barely responded. True or not, she should have passed the torch before it was too late rather than risk the current situation. But she was running for her, what happened to America as a result didn't matter.

7) Maybe she should have conducted all government related communications via the approved and prearranged channels so no one, outside a criminal investigation, would have any grounds to request a batch of information that includes personal emails about weddings and children and such. And a personal email/2nd phone is 1 thing, this is a private server, self contained, that she used for both personal and government business. The government had literally no record of her communications as SOS because she sidestepped their system and used hers instead. She then turns those records over when she feels like it, after her people "prepare" the data package....... Perfect if you're a corrupt, powerful politician, and seemingly unnecessary if you aren't.

8) Obviously experience isn't a bad thing in and of itself. By your logic anyone who's been in politics as long as Hillary should look just as dirty. Can you guess who my counter example would be?


Try not to let them trick you into hating Bernie by 2020.

Good god man, stop blaming voters for not doing what they're told and hold your party accountable for their actions. Bernie will likely be too old by 2020, but he's still done a hell of a lot more for the left than Her Majesty has since the Democratic Convention. But you should probably do whatever you can to make sure Bernie's following remains bitter and angry at the Democratic Party by repeatedly blaming them for 2016 with shaky logic and false equivalencies.

(Quote edited for character limit)
 
Greetings, Pero. :2wave:

:agree: Perhaps she didn't agree with her campaign people if they tried to reason with her, but she should not have laughed about being criticized for putting national security at risk and blowing it off as unimportant! :thumbdown: Being in politics as long as she was, she should have known better! Her husband understood the political world, and today he is still thought of as one of the great Presidents of our time by a lot of people. Wasn't she paying attention to his way of doing things, or did she just not care enough to bother since everyone was assuring her that she was a shoe-in for the job? Who knows? :doh:

Bill Clinton was a very good president. Being born right after WWII, he ranks as the third or fourth best in my lifetime. Eisenhower and JFK holding down the first two position. Bill tried to warn Hillary a week or two prior to the election that she could still lose it. That is the right phrase, lose it, not win it. Hillary did opt to listen to her campaign advisors instead of Bill. Her fault on that one along with many other things I won't bother to go into.

I also think the fact Hillary thought she was next in line and that was enough to win it. On the classified e-mails, CNN exit polling show that 63% of all Americans were bothered by it. 36% were not. Mr. Wonka is among those 36%, probably almost all Democrats. Back to CNN exit polling, of those 63% who were bothered by Hillary's classified e-mail snafu, they went for Trump 69-24 with 7% voting third party. Those not bothered by her Classified E-mails appearing on an unclassified server, went to Hillary 91-6 over Trump. CNN didn't break it down by party, I wish they would have as I would have liked to see how independents viewed the e-mail snafu.

Independents went to Trump 46-42 over Clinton with 12% voting third party, I assume the putting classified national security information at risk and then laughing about it was one of the main reasons Clinton lost the independent vote.
 
Not following best practices does not come close to the standard for criminality.
In this case it actually falls in a legal grey zone as I said good people have gone to jail for less. I’ll give her the benefit of the doubt considering political opponents will always frame it in the worst light. Its still a misjudgment that was handled poorly and that cost her support and trust.

Is it enough to claim that Hillary Clinton was a terrible candidate?
No, being a terrible candidate is relative. It simply makes the charity motive questionable and supports the suspicion we have of all candidates she was taking bribes/kickbacks. It have no doubt its a “maybe” otherwise she’d likely be in jail.

Meanwhile there is a veritable mountain of evidence proving beyond a reasonable doubt that every single solitary thing Democrats have been saying about Trump is 100% the truth.
Unfortunately no your claim goes both way. Both Trump and Hillary have extremely circumstantial and interpretable evidence which supports the opposing narrative.

You do realize she spent 11 hours testifying in front of congressional Republicans answering every single question they asked her and they couldn't make a single thing stick right?
She had to do that. I think it was a witch hunt too…I care how she portrayed her misjudgement to the public. She handled it with PR and spin.

Hillary Clinton has openly admitted that she had a private email server, and she said exactly why she had it, and what it was used for.
Not that it was a misjudgement. Not that she learned from her mistake.

For the record Politifact.com rated her as the 2nd most honest presidential candidate of the last 15 years.
Me and Politifact disagree on a lot of things. Using the word fact doesn’t make it honest, a measure of integrety or a reflection of reality.

I am not even going bother arguing its biased. It’s autistic. It’s got a bad methodology.

I’ll use an example from both candidates.

Donald latest entry in Pants on fire: CNN ratings are ‘way down’
Trump?s Pants on Fire claim that CNN ratings are ?way down? | PolitiFact

Trump’s claim that CNN’s ratings are down raises the question: compared to what?
Obviously the one they are down: rankings.

The article goes on to measure overall increase in viewers, which I might mention are a fraction of what a popular youtube political video receive. Yeah, that might be an interesting factoid but it proves nothing. CNNs influence is way down.

Hillary latest entry in Pants on fire: Clinton twists Trump's words on rescuing the auto industry during recession

Clinton also takes the "let it go" quote out of context and time. Trump made that comment in 2015, not 2008. And he was making the point that a number of actions could have saved the auto industry, one of which was "let it go" into bankruptcy.
You mean a reasonable person could assume trump based on his own statements may have in fact have let the auto industry go bankrupt if he was president?

Then I am sorry she may be factually weak but she isn’t lying.

Or maybe there really just wasn't much of anything to apologize for and it was all made up and overblown.
I don’t disagree it was a witch hunt by her opponents or she had to make apologies on their terms. I do disagree it turned up nothing of concern to the public. What was so hard about ensuring the people this misjudgment made her even more diligent in protecting americas secrets?

Yes, it is.
So almost no official business was done on this email server like with everyone else? It was a serious misjudgement.

I think the hatred was manufactured
politics as usual.

I wager to you that none of the bull**** excuses people gave for why they didn't like her would have mattered at all if the exact same things had happened to Bill or Obama.
I’d actually agree with you, but not because "she is a woman" but because she lacked the leadership to sell her ideas despite those negatives. We are electing a leader and that is what leaders do. Despite their human quibbles they must lead something larger then themselves.

You vote party. I vote person. I view the parties as different approaches.

It sounds like what I'm hearing is not so much that Clinton was a bad candidate, but that millions of Americans are really bad voters.
Haha, maybe…but you should understand if we wanted the most qualified we’d hold a challenge or have them appointed by the congress. A popular vote is battle confidence, which comes down to leadership skills. One of which is charisma. People have certainly won without it.
 
How can you sit there looking at what has gone on in the last decade or so, particularly what the Republican party is doing under Donald Trump and continue to convince yourself that Both major political parties are equally bad? How can you honestly look at yourself in the mirror and say Hillary would have been just as bad as Trump?

Under a Democrat Bill Clinton this country not only survived but it thrived in one of the most prosperous decades in all of American history. Under a Republican Bush we ended up in the middle of two prolonged wars, and in the worst economic disaster since the great depression. Under another Democrat Obama we crawled out of that disaster, killed Bin Laden, passed comprehensive Health care reform despite widespread racism and obstruction by the Republican party. Now we see the republican party replacing President Obama obvious lying demagogue with serious mental issues.

What exactly is it about remaining in the center that makes you feel like a smart person?

Do you have a check list in your mind some where that says "sure Republicans did this, but Democrats did this other thing and that's just as bad." What's on it exactly? Did democrats kick your puppy or something?

I myself would have probably considered myself a libertarian as recently as 2006, but just cannot grasp how someone could look at the disastrous Bush administration, the incredibly successful Obama administration, the disgusting piece of this Trump administration, and say still say to themselves, "I don't know, I'm still kind of on the fence here."

Hillary would have been just as bad as Donald. Not being a partisan hack makes it easy to see that. See both politicians (Clinton and Trump) see the other political party as the opposition instead of Americans with liberties and freedoms to believe the way they see fit. Neither care about the little guy the average American, they can only think about the power that their party gives them and froth at the mouth for the opportunity to use that power. Hillary would be using that power to try to hurt the Republican party in any way possible. And Trump well we can see what he is doing.
 
First, Bush senior started Desert Shield in 1990 so get your facts that you love so much straight.

Bush orders Operation Desert Shield - Aug 07, 1990 - HISTORY.com

Secondly, while many presidents have been meddling in the middle east for decades they were smart enough to get themselves stuck in full scale protracted wars with no end game let alone two of them. That was 100% W's fault.

Whoops ... totally reversed Bush Sr's and Clinton's presidential years in my head when I posted that.


:3oops:
 
CNN exit polling show that 63% of all Americans were bothered by it. 36% were not. Mr. Wonka is among those 36%, probably almost all Democrats.
You do realize that Trump's first Choice for national security adviser had to resign within 3 weeks because he was caught red handed compromising national security right? You do realize that Trump's second choice for national security adviser was former General Petraeus a man who was not only charged, but convicted of the exact crime Republicans tried to accuse Hillary Clinton of right? You do realize we now have Donald Trump Jr openly admitting that he tried to conspire with Russians to obtain damaging information about Hillary(even though there apparently wasn't any). You do Realize that James Comey is a Republican himself, and yet still couldn't find enough evidence to justify trying to charge Hillary with anything.

Is it possible that the 63% of Americans who were bothered by Hillary's emails were just swindled by the propaganda of the Republican party and that it was actually a non-story in reality?

What happens in 2020 when 63% of Americans are bothered by the allegedly illegal loans that Bernie Sanders wife obtained?

Independents went to Trump 46-42 over Clinton with 12% voting third party, I assume the putting classified national security information at risk and then laughing about it was one of the main reasons Clinton lost the independent vote.

And what do all those independents think now that they realize Clinton didn't actually put anything at serious risk, meanwhile the president and the administration they chose have been caught red handed putting national security at risk at least four times within the first seven months of being in office.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...4f199710b69_story.html?utm_term=.7e6e48e74ebe

Is it possible those independents got swindled by Right wing Propaganda, and the reality of what Hillary Clinton did was actually quite minor and irrelevant?
 
You do realize that Trump's first Choice for national security adviser had to resign within 3 weeks because he was caught red handed compromising national security right? You do realize that Trump's second choice for national security adviser was former General Petraeus a man who was not only charged, but convicted of the exact crime Republicans tried to accuse Hillary Clinton of right? You do realize we now have Donald Trump Jr openly admitting that he tried to conspire with Russians to obtain damaging information about Hillary(even though there apparently wasn't any). You do Realize that James Comey is a Republican himself, and yet still couldn't find enough evidence to justify trying to charge Hillary with anything.

Is it possible that the 63% of Americans who were bothered by Hillary's emails were just swindled by the propaganda of the Republican party and that it was actually a non-story in reality?

What happens in 2020 when 63% of Americans are bothered by the allegedly illegal loans that Bernie Sanders wife obtained?



And what do all those independents think now that they realize Clinton didn't actually put anything at serious risk, meanwhile the president and the administration they chose have been caught red handed putting national security at risk at least four times within the first seven months of being in office.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...4f199710b69_story.html?utm_term=.7e6e48e74ebe

Is it possible those independents got swindled by Right wing Propaganda, and the reality of what Hillary Clinton did was actually quite minor and irrelevant?

Take it from someone who worked in the SCI arena or what the media refers to as SAP. Hillary did indeed put our sensitive national security information at risk. Those of us who operated in that arena were very interested to see if rank has it privileges or if being a presidential nominee put her above everyone else operating and working in the SCI arena. Bottom line, she was above the law and above everyone else in that field.

You are the one who don't know how that system or networks work, what was put at risk and what was not. You are the one buying into the Democratic propaganda machine and trying to convince everyone else. Steps have already been taken to minimize what Hillary had put at risk and changes made. But don't go telling anyone who worked and lived in that arena that it was nothing. It was, she got away with it only because she was a presidential nominee and a Democrat was president. Simple as that.

What those who don't work in that field, who don't know anything about, are ignorant of the safeguards and what actually was put at risk. They can buy into the the propaganda spewed forth by Clinton or not. That is their prerogative. You bought it. That is your privileged. I didn't, that is mine.

Polarization and partisanship, politics shouldn't have any business in the national security arena. But it does sorry to say. Even with everything that passed, I would still vote for Gary Johnson today. Neither Trump nor Clinton should have ever got within a million miles of the White House. In a non-politicized atmosphere with only national security taken into account, Hillary would have had to withdraw, been replace, her security clearance withdrawn, and probably you would have had a Democrat sitting in the White House today. A Democrat who smashed Trump by 10-15 points. One I would have voted for and probably most of those 8 million who voted third party. Oh, for the want of a decent candidate who wasn't disliked by 60% of Americans. Disliked as much as Trump.
 
Take it from someone who worked in the SCI arena or what the media refers to as SAP. Hillary did indeed put our sensitive national security information at risk.
Is slightly more risk than what she should have as bad as definitively compromising national security four separate times within seven months of being in office? I am a government contractor. I'm well aware of the security protocols and what is considered risky. But realistically this is no more dangerous than bringing your work laptop home or leaving a disc on your kitchen table. There is no actual evidence to conclude that any actual information was ever compromised.

Meanwhile Trump out right told the Russian Ambassador classified information.

Those of us who operated in that arena were very interested to see if rank has it privileges or if being a presidential nominee put her above everyone else operating and working in the SCI arena. Bottom line, she was above the law and above everyone else in that field.
That's a load of crap. The reality is you and people like you are elevating what she did specifically because she's a presidential nominee that you're looking for a reason to hate. Even government servers get hacked more often than the government would like to admit. We're talking about a handful of emails, we're not even sure she sent herself, most of which were not properly marked. Nobody, regardless of their rank would be fired or imprisoned for such a thing that was clearly an accident.

Again James Comey is a Republican. If he thought for one second he had enough evidence to warrant charges that could get a conviction do you seriously think he wouldn't have recommended them?

But don't go telling anyone who worked and lived in that arena that it was nothing. It was, she got away with it only because she was a presidential nominee and a Democrat was president. Simple as that.
Bull****. I am in that arena, and it was nothing. About 1/4 of the higher ups at my place of work carry multiple cell phones for this exact reason. So they can keep their personal emails, texts, and phone calls separate from their work stuff. If out of 30,000 emails, texts, and phone calls 100 or so times they end up using the wrong phone accidentally it's not the end of the world, it's an honest mistake.

My boss complains all the time about how people keep sending **** to his specific military email address that he almost never checks, and then they bitch at him when he misses a meeting. The reality is that modern technology is moving so fast that cyber security can't keep up with it, and in order to try they end up making "secure" networks so frustratingly annoying to use that people avoid them like the plague.

I would still vote for Gary Johnson today. Neither Trump nor Clinton should have ever got within a million miles of the White House.
So a former Secretary of State, two term Senator, and adviser to a former very successful President who has spent most of her life working to secure health care for underprivileged children is equally as bad and unqualified as a shady real estate tycoon, reality show star, and casino owner with ties to Russia and to the mob, that almost certainly sexually assaulted multiple women.....because.... emails. Got it.

and probably you would have had a Democrat sitting in the White House today. A Democrat who smashed Trump by 10-15 points. One I would have voted for

her_emails.jpg

Yeah got it.

Now will you address the reality that the person you claimed was equally bad and his administration have already been demonstrated to have directly(not accidentally) compromised national security multiple times in just the first seven months in office. Including multiple nominations for top positions lying about ties to Russia on their applications for security clearance?
 
Is slightly more risk than what she should have as bad as definitively compromising national security four separate times within seven months of being in office? I am a government contractor. I'm well aware of the security protocols and what is considered risky. But realistically this is no more dangerous than bringing your work laptop home or leaving a disc on your kitchen table. There is no actual evidence to conclude that any actual information was ever compromised.

Meanwhile Trump out right told the Russian Ambassador classified information.

So a former Secretary of State, two term Senator, and adviser to a former very successful President who has spent most of her life working to secure health care for underprivileged children is equally as bad and unqualified as a shady real estate tycoon, reality show star, and casino owner with ties to Russia and to the mob, that almost certainly sexually assaulted multiple women.....because.... emails. Got it.



View attachment 67220028

Yeah got it.

Now will you address the reality that the person you claimed was equally bad and his administration have already been demonstrated to have directly(not accidentally) compromised national security multiple times in just the first seven months in office. Including multiple nominations for top positions lying about ties to Russia on their applications for security clearance?

Don't have to claim. Gallup: One in Four Americans Dislike Both Presidential Candidates

One in Four Americans Dislike Both Presidential Candidates | Gallup

Last year only 35% of all Americans had a positive view of Hillary vs. 28% for Trump. But this was a bit before the election. It ended up Hillary with a 38% favorable or positive view vs. 36% for Trump. That's awful. They set a record for the lowest favorable view of a candidate going back to FDR when Gallup and Pew Research started keeping track of these things. The previous low record was held by Barry Goldwater in 1964 at 43%, the next lowest was G.H.W. Bush at 46% in 1992. No other presidential candidate had a positive or favorable rating of less than 50% by Americans as a whole.

Want to know whom most Americans held in respect or viewed positively. Sanders at 58% positive, 30% negative. Kasich 49% positive, 30% negative. Rubio 44% positive, 38% negative. Biden 53% positive, 37% negative. Now compare them to Trump 36% positive, 62% negative and Clinton 38% positive and 60% negative at the time of the election.

Most Americans wanted neither. Only their avid supporters wanted them. Both major parties ignored the wishes and wants of most Americans only satisfying only their political party telling America as a whole to stick it where the sun don't shine. Yes, I'm coming down on both parties. Trump is president only because of the decisions and choices made by both political parties last year. You could have come up with a decent candidate, one not so disliked by America as a whole, but no.

Trump, Clinton, I didn't care who won between them. I still don't. That wasn't a choice, that was a disaster waiting to happen and now because of the choices both parties made, we now have that disaster. Thank you very much. Trump being president is as much the fault of Democrats as Republicans. Democrats failed to come up with a candidate that was liked and wanted more than Trump. You're problem.

Why is it Democrats can't admit they ran a bum candidate. They ran the only candidate alive or dead that could have and did lose to Trump. I think that says it all.
 
Don't have to claim. Gallup: One in Four Americans Dislike Both Presidential Candidates

1 in 4 American's disliking both candidates does not mean they have a rational reason for it. It is just as likely that the 1 in four who hate both had their perception of one candidate or both warped by effective propaganda.

Last year only 35% of all Americans had a positive view of Hillary
Again, polls don't reflect reality, they reflect people's perception of reality, but in this case it would seem that your perception of reality does not come close to matching reality.

Most Americans wanted neither.
But is that because both were actually bad, or because most Americans are idiots who fell victim to propaganda. Given that one candidate was extremely well qualified, had a ton of experience, and had policy positions that were almost identical to other politicians that they happily voted for it sure seems like the people got swindled to me.

Anybody who would look at what is going on in Washington DC right now, and try to claim that Hillary would be just as bad needs to get waked over the head with a frying pan and woken up out of their sick delusion. You got swindled. It's time for you to let your ego admit to that reality.

Why is it Democrats can't admit they ran a bum candidate.

Because there is no factual or rational basis for this conclusion. As recently as 2012 Hillary Clinton had an approval rating that was above 60%(since you seem to like polls so much). Every single solitary thing in Clinton's resume demonstrated that she was a quite capable leader, that was more than qualified for the position of President of the United States. No candidate is flawless, and she may not have been the most charismatic person in the world, but Donald Trump is the text book definition of a fascist. He is a demagogue, that has been diagnosed with narcissist personality disorder, and is very clearly temperamentally unstable. And people like yourself chose to let him have access to nuclear weapons because........emails.
 
So, do you believe President Obama ordered the bombing of a hospital? Did military advisers tell him they were going to bomb a hospital, and he gave the go ahead? I know he specifically ordered the mission that killed Bin Laden. Mistakes happen. Even successful missions like the one that killed Bin Laden resulted in the loss of a helicopter, but is there some reason to believe there was something wrong with the general orders given by President Obama?

You bring up Bin laden like he was killed only because a Democrat was in office.

Do you think if a Republican had been in office he wouldn't have ordered the strike?
 
No, they would not have. If Bush had given the order he would have probably done something stupid like bomb the **** out of the compound from the sky. In which case we would not have definitive proof that Bin Laden was actually dead.

Who has proof now that Bin laden is dead?

They disposed of the body before anybody could look at it, didn't they?
 
But is that because both were actually bad, or because most Americans are idiots who fell victim to propaganda. Given that one candidate was extremely well qualified, had a ton of experience, and had policy positions that were almost identical to other politicians that they happily voted for it sure seems like the people got swindled to me.

Clinton did get some 3 million more votes. Proof most Americans are in fact idiots that got swindled into believing propaganda.
You got a valid point.
 
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