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Civil Order versus Chaos

calamity

calamity

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Close your eyes and point to a region on the global map. It can be anywhere. What are you likely to find? My guess is you are probably more likely to find chaos than you are order.

Not to pick on Africa, but when you look at South Africa and Nigeria, for example, you see a complete mess. Add to that Zimbabwe. Now we see three countries which have incredible resources: precious metals, oil and fertile land respectively; but yet all three are basket-case nations. Understanding why that is so is beyond my pay grade. But, I am certainly curious enough to seek clues.

What makes a country dysfunctional? What makes a country like Germany or even, god forbid, the USA become a one-party dictatorship, for example?

Lots of factors come into play, of course, but one factor seems to stand out: Tribalism. This tribal thing is insidious. Each tribe believes they are better than the other tribe. Making matters worse, I believe, these tribes all overestimate their abilities. So that if and/or when one tribe starts to become dominant, they usually screw everything up. Zimbabwe today is a perfect example of this. As is most of the Middle East.

I worry about the US. We are rapidly Balkanizing into tribes. And, all of our various tribes believe they are in the right and the others are complete idiots—they all stand firmly on shaky ground, as it were. This can't be good.

We have been through this before, of course, most recently during the 60’s with Vietnam protests, racial riots, domestic terrorism, assassinations, etc. But, back then our economy was humming along pretty well. So our young, testosterone laden males of all colors were not lacking employment opportunities. That made assimilation possible. For the most part, all these angry men bought into the system eventually. I fear we cannot do that today.

Current trends are not very reassuring. An entire generation of young black men seem to be turning to things like the drug trade or human trafficking as career options. Meanwhile, instead of branching out and finding pride in accomplishment, our young white men live with their parents and find social acceptance by spreading hate and vilifying other tribes online. I fear we are heading down a dark, tribal path.

TLDNR: maybe what we see in Africa is the norm, and what we have been used to seeing here in the US is an anomaly.
 
Last edited:
Faction has always been part of American political culture. Tribalism is new. And tribalism in America has been engendered by identity politics.
And identity politics in America has been sponsored by...
Drum roll, please!
;)
 
Angel said:
Faction has always been part of American political culture. Tribalism is new. And tribalism in America has been engendered by identity politics.
And identity politics in America has been sponsored by...
Drum roll, please!
;)
Click to expand...

The "other" guy, of course. :)
 
calamity said:
Close your eyes and point to a region on the global map. It can be anywhere. What are you likely to find? My guess is you are probably more likely to find chaos than you are order.

Not to pick on Africa, but when you look at South Africa and Nigeria, for example, you see a complete mess. Add to that Zimbabwe. Now we see three countries which have incredible resources: precious metals, oil and fertile land respectively; but yet all three are basket-case nations. Understanding why that is so is beyond my pay grade. But, I am certainly curious enough to seek clues.

What makes a country dysfunctional? What makes a country like Germany or even, god forbid, the USA become a one-party dictatorship, for example?

Lots of factors come into play, of course, but one factor seems to stand out: Tribalism. This tribal thing is insidious. Each tribe believes they are better than the other tribe. Making matters worse, I believe, these tribes all overestimate their abilities. So that if and/or when one tribe starts to become dominant, they usually screw everything up. Zimbabwe today is a perfect example of this. As is most of the Middle East.

I worry about the US. We are rapidly Balkanizing into tribes. And, all of our various tribes believe they are in the right and the others are complete idiots—they all stand firmly on shaky ground, as it were. This can't be good.

We have been through this before, of course, most recently during the 60’s with Vietnam protests, racial riots, domestic terrorism, assassinations, etc. But, back then our economy was humming along pretty well. So our young, testosterone laden males of all colors were not lacking employment opportunities. That made assimilation possible. For the most part, all these angry men bought into the system eventually. I fear we cannot do that today.

Current trends are not very reassuring. An entire generation of young black men seem to be turning to things like the drug trade or human trafficking as career options. Meanwhile, instead of branching out and finding pride in accomplishment, our young white men live with their parents and find social acceptance by spreading hate and vilifying other tribes online. I fear we are heading down a dark, tribal path.

TLDNR: maybe what we see in Africa is the norm, and what we have been used to seeing here in the US is an anomaly.
Click to expand...

It took Europe thousands of years to cripple the tribal mentality.. not get rid of it, but make it as small as possible. WW2 was the last major conflict where tribes were fighting each other (Yugoslavia was another, but a minor.. relatively speaking.. conflict).

With the rise of nationalism, tribalism has come back in Europe. Problem is, that our tribes are now days a far more vague definition than it once was. Back in the day, your tribe was where you were born and to who you were born too.. much like it still is around the world. That is a problem in Europe, since those links have long since gone. So now days, our tribes are nationalist parties that advocate actions against other tribes as defined by said nationalist parties.

In the US, the "tribalism" is centred in part around race and geographical area, but they overlap quite a bit.

Now the main driver often of this tribalism is income inequality. You see more "tribalism" in countries with higher income inequality. It is no wonder that it was the UK that did a Brexit, since the UK has one of the highest income inequities in western Europe. The more unequal and discriminatory a country is, the worse it will get...
 
Fundamentally, we are a tribal species. There isn't much historical precedent that suggests otherwise and it isn't inherently a BAD thing.

What is bad is imperial tribalism... when you force you tribe on other or invade others because they are different. Force assimilation will never work and there is only historical success (very few examples) but the time it has worked is because it wasn't forced and it has taken a very long time.

The other issue is ethnic differences, especially in the category of intelligence. Regardless of if you believe it is due to socioeconomic differences, genetics, oppression, etc... it doesn't fundamentally matter in the short term. There are pretty significant differences and they have some massive implications when it comes to managing a society.

As for the United States... I highly doubt anything akin to mass civil unrest or war. Most people are way to content with their lives... stuffing their faces and playing video games along with a vast array of other hedonistic activities. We are at the peak of prosperity and no one is willing to get into the trenches and fight I can assure you that. However, if there was mass economic collapse or something else happened which took away this age of prosperity... there could be mass violence.
 
PeteEU said:
It took Europe thousands of years to cripple the tribal mentality.. not get rid of it, but make it as small as possible. WW2 was the last major conflict where tribes were fighting each other (Yugoslavia was another, but a minor.. relatively speaking.. conflict).

With the rise of nationalism, tribalism has come back in Europe. Problem is, that our tribes are now days a far more vague definition than it once was. Back in the day, your tribe was where you were born and to who you were born too.. much like it still is around the world. That is a problem in Europe, since those links have long since gone. So now days, our tribes are nationalist parties that advocate actions against other tribes as defined by said nationalist parties.

In the US, the "tribalism" is centred in part around race and geographical area, but they overlap quite a bit.

Now the main driver often of this tribalism is income inequality. You see more "tribalism" in countries with higher income inequality. It is no wonder that it was the UK that did a Brexit, since the UK has one of the highest income inequities in western Europe. The more unequal and discriminatory a country is, the worse it will get...
Click to expand...
Good point. Some of the worst countries on earth like Saudi Arabia, Brazil, South Africa certainly have that trait in common.
 
Koke said:
Fundamentally, we are a tribal species. There isn't much historical precedent that suggests otherwise and it isn't inherently a BAD thing.

What is bad is imperial tribalism... when you force you tribe on other or invade others because they are different. Force assimilation will never work and there is only historical success (very few examples) but the time it has worked is because it wasn't forced and it has taken a very long time.

The other issue is ethnic differences, especially in the category of intelligence. Regardless of if you believe it is due to socioeconomic differences, genetics, oppression, etc... it doesn't fundamentally matter in the short term. There are pretty significant differences and they have some massive implications when it comes to managing a society.

As for the United States... I highly doubt anything akin to mass civil unrest or war. Most people are way to content with their lives... stuffing their faces and playing video games along with a vast array of other hedonistic activities. We are at the peak of prosperity and no one is willing to get into the trenches and fight I can assure you that. However, if there was mass economic collapse or something else happened which took away this age of prosperity... there could be mass violence.
Click to expand...

I do not think that our disintegration will be rapid. But, I do believe we are well on our way precisely because our economic prosperity is waning. Let's face it, our young people do not have the economic opportunities that those of us in our 50's and 60's had when growing up.

Back in my day, a young man with a high school diploma could still land a good job which had promise. Most of us could work our way up to high 5-figure salaries with a good shot at 6-figs by working a little overtime and pushing the envelope by exceeding minimum expectations. Good people were hard to find back then, and companies were quick to reward those who carried the ball for them. Today, labor is a commodity, and most young people are not only competing with the Chinese but also have to outperform a machine.
 
calamity said:
Close your eyes and point to a region on the global map. It can be anywhere. What are you likely to find? My guess is you are probably more likely to find chaos than you are order.

Not to pick on Africa, but when you look at South Africa and Nigeria, for example, you see a complete mess. Add to that Zimbabwe. Now we see three countries which have incredible resources: precious metals, oil and fertile land respectively; but yet all three are basket-case nations. Understanding why that is so is beyond my pay grade. But, I am certainly curious enough to seek clues.

What makes a country dysfunctional? What makes a country like Germany or even, god forbid, the USA become a one-party dictatorship, for example?

Lots of factors come into play, of course, but one factor seems to stand out: Tribalism. This tribal thing is insidious. Each tribe believes they are better than the other tribe. Making matters worse, I believe, these tribes all overestimate their abilities. So that if and/or when one tribe starts to become dominant, they usually screw everything up. Zimbabwe today is a perfect example of this. As is most of the Middle East.

I worry about the US. We are rapidly Balkanizing into tribes. And, all of our various tribes believe they are in the right and the others are complete idiots—they all stand firmly on shaky ground, as it were. This can't be good.

We have been through this before, of course, most recently during the 60’s with Vietnam protests, racial riots, domestic terrorism, assassinations, etc. But, back then our economy was humming along pretty well. So our young, testosterone laden males of all colors were not lacking employment opportunities. That made assimilation possible. For the most part, all these angry men bought into the system eventually. I fear we cannot do that today.

Current trends are not very reassuring. An entire generation of young black men seem to be turning to things like the drug trade or human trafficking as career options. Meanwhile, instead of branching out and finding pride in accomplishment, our young white men live with their parents and find social acceptance by spreading hate and vilifying other tribes online. I fear we are heading down a dark, tribal path.

TLDNR: maybe what we see in Africa is the norm, and what we have been used to seeing here in the US is an anomaly.
Click to expand...

Yesterday you start that thread.

https://www.debatepolitics.com/gene...01-biggest-political-mistakes-us-history.html

Then today, you start this thread.

Cura te ipsum.
 
calamity said:
Close your eyes and point to a region on the global map. It can be anywhere. What are you likely to find? My guess is you are probably more likely to find chaos than you are order.

Not to pick on Africa, but when you look at South Africa and Nigeria, for example, you see a complete mess. Add to that Zimbabwe. Now we see three countries which have incredible resources: precious metals, oil and fertile land respectively; but yet all three are basket-case nations. Understanding why that is so is beyond my pay grade. But, I am certainly curious enough to seek clues.

What makes a country dysfunctional? What makes a country like Germany or even, god forbid, the USA become a one-party dictatorship, for example?

Lots of factors come into play, of course, but one factor seems to stand out: Tribalism. This tribal thing is insidious. Each tribe believes they are better than the other tribe. Making matters worse, I believe, these tribes all overestimate their abilities. So that if and/or when one tribe starts to become dominant, they usually screw everything up. Zimbabwe today is a perfect example of this. As is most of the Middle East.

I worry about the US. We are rapidly Balkanizing into tribes. And, all of our various tribes believe they are in the right and the others are complete idiots—they all stand firmly on shaky ground, as it were. This can't be good.

We have been through this before, of course, most recently during the 60’s with Vietnam protests, racial riots, domestic terrorism, assassinations, etc. But, back then our economy was humming along pretty well. So our young, testosterone laden males of all colors were not lacking employment opportunities. That made assimilation possible. For the most part, all these angry men bought into the system eventually. I fear we cannot do that today.

Current trends are not very reassuring. An entire generation of young black men seem to be turning to things like the drug trade or human trafficking as career options. Meanwhile, instead of branching out and finding pride in accomplishment, our young white men live with their parents and find social acceptance by spreading hate and vilifying other tribes online. I fear we are heading down a dark, tribal path.

TLDNR: maybe what we see in Africa is the norm, and what we have been used to seeing here in the US is an anomaly.
Click to expand...
Whites are getting deep into the drug trade, too - look at the meth epidemic. The drug problem is better hidden in the white community because the police don't bother them as much.

I don't see the problem with Balkanization. I'd rather not live under the values of Conservatism. Let them live in their all-white paradise, drink their own fracked water-on-fire and choke on their coal and mercury. I want to live with the folks with solar panels and diverse population and clean water.
 
Zalatix said:
Whites are getting deep into the drug trade, too - look at the meth epidemic. The drug problem is better hidden in the white community because the police don't bother them as much.

I don't see the problem with Balkanization. I'd rather not live under the values of Conservatism. Let them live in their all-white paradise, drink their own fracked water-on-fire and choke on their coal and mercury. I want to live with the folks with solar panels and diverse population and clean water.
Click to expand...
I suspect fewer bright scientists from places like India will be lining up to come to backwards US. Canada and France will welcome them with open arms. I am sure.
 
calamity said:
I suspect fewer bright scientists from places like India will be lining up to come to backwards US. Canada and France will welcome them with open arms. I am sure.
Click to expand...
That is inevitable. As their economies develop and advance, their brain drain will stop anyway. It needs to, because their countries don't deserve to lose their home-grown intellectual powerhouses. America needs to grow its own talent.
 
Zalatix said:
That is inevitable. As their economies develop and advance, their brain drain will stop anyway. It needs to, because their countries don't deserve to lose their home-grown intellectual powerhouses. America needs to grow its own talent.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure we can. Fewer than 50% of the students in my STEM undergrad program were American born, and half of those were first gen like me. Worse, almost none of the students in my master's program were American at all.
 
calamity said:
Close your eyes and point to a region on the global map. It can be anywhere. What are you likely to find? My guess is you are probably more likely to find chaos than you are order.

Not to pick on Africa, but when you look at South Africa and Nigeria, for example, you see a complete mess. Add to that Zimbabwe. Now we see three countries which have incredible resources: precious metals, oil and fertile land respectively; but yet all three are basket-case nations. Understanding why that is so is beyond my pay grade. But, I am certainly curious enough to seek clues.

What makes a country dysfunctional? What makes a country like Germany or even, god forbid, the USA become a one-party dictatorship, for example?

Lots of factors come into play, of course, but one factor seems to stand out: Tribalism. This tribal thing is insidious. Each tribe believes they are better than the other tribe. Making matters worse, I believe, these tribes all overestimate their abilities. So that if and/or when one tribe starts to become dominant, they usually screw everything up. Zimbabwe today is a perfect example of this. As is most of the Middle East.

I worry about the US. We are rapidly Balkanizing into tribes. And, all of our various tribes believe they are in the right and the others are complete idiots—they all stand firmly on shaky ground, as it were. This can't be good.

We have been through this before, of course, most recently during the 60’s with Vietnam protests, racial riots, domestic terrorism, assassinations, etc. But, back then our economy was humming along pretty well. So our young, testosterone laden males of all colors were not lacking employment opportunities. That made assimilation possible. For the most part, all these angry men bought into the system eventually. I fear we cannot do that today.

Current trends are not very reassuring. An entire generation of young black men seem to be turning to things like the drug trade or human trafficking as career options. Meanwhile, instead of branching out and finding pride in accomplishment, our young white men live with their parents and find social acceptance by spreading hate and vilifying other tribes online. I fear we are heading down a dark, tribal path.

TLDNR: maybe what we see in Africa is the norm, and what we have been used to seeing here in the US is an anomaly.
Click to expand...

If you see how those regions of the world function, you see why a lot of people are against overthrowing dictators, as in those regions a brutal dictator gives them more freedom that they have without. It is not just tribes, people in africa and the middle east have fought eachother over everything since recorded history, and only strong armed dictators have stopped the genocide.

As far as america the comparison is way different, we have crimes rather than genocides, but western culture works with how our govt is, eastern societies need a strong armed govt.
 
PeteEU said:
It took Europe thousands of years to cripple the tribal mentality.. not get rid of it, but make it as small as possible. WW2 was the last major conflict where tribes were fighting each other (Yugoslavia was another, but a minor.. relatively speaking.. conflict).

With the rise of nationalism, tribalism has come back in Europe. Problem is, that our tribes are now days a far more vague definition than it once was. Back in the day, your tribe was where you were born and to who you were born too.. much like it still is around the world. That is a problem in Europe, since those links have long since gone. So now days, our tribes are nationalist parties that advocate actions against other tribes as defined by said nationalist parties.

In the US, the "tribalism" is centred in part around race and geographical area, but they overlap quite a bit.

Now the main driver often of this tribalism is income inequality. You see more "tribalism" in countries with higher income inequality. It is no wonder that it was the UK that did a Brexit, since the UK has one of the highest income inequities in western Europe. The more unequal and discriminatory a country is, the worse it will get...
Click to expand...

You are confusing nationalism with tribalism. Nationalism is a fairly new concept in relation to the worlds history, while tribalism has been throughout the worlds history. For example england in the middle ages was much more tribal but not nationalistic, hence why feudalism was important, it bound the whole country who had no loyalty to the king through nobles who had loyalty of their local men.

In tribalism, it is not even race, it is your local group of people, it could be an actual tribe, or it could be the welsh speaking people of northern england in the middle ages who were loyal to their noble and not the king. It could be an entire way of life like northern cali vs southern cali.

Nationalism is reguarding a nation, not a people. For example nationalism in germany is pretty much not a big historical thing until ww2, infact the country of germany never existed until post ww2, as it was known as either the weimarch republic, the german empire, or the prussian empire prior. They identified themselves as part of the german empire, but as individual countries as well, like prussia which is now austria and many eastern european countries, or people identifying as bavarian rather than as german citizens.

World war two and hitler was a change from the worlds history in that it destroyed tribalism and installed nationalism.
 
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