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Fact checking Trump #2: Duterte and killing drug dealers

The idea behind killing the user is not that the dealer is a nice person or can not control their actions. It is one of choice and economic decisions.

History has shown that if their is a demand for a good or service and the profit is high enough, someone will supply it (profit has to exceed the risk/reward equation for that person). If the demand is reduced significantly due to the risks (ie death or lengthy prison terms if a person was to be kinder) for using drugs the actual amount being supplied would drop as well. Which by all accounts usage would drop drastically as one party night for the vast majority of people would not be worth the risk of death.

Fewer users, means fewer suppliers, a drastically reduced drug problem

By killing dealer, the supply will be decreased and you will just increase the price for the product, increasing the incentive for others to attempt to supply the product. A cycle that would not be broken

Yeah, I got that point. My point was about the philosophy of a government waging war on its own citizens--and mass executions in the process. But like I pointed out in another post. The government can do the same with catching American citizens with firearms. That way we would have little to no shooting deaths in the United States. You could do the same with alcohol and that might save Americans from a slew of problems like deaths and paralysis due to drunk drivers, armed robberies of stores, stabbing, rapes, incestuous pedophilia, and Fetal Alcohol Syndrome.


(I'm pro-legaized firearms by the way. They could actually loosen some of the laws to my liking. And at the same time maybe enforce with harsher penalties persons with certain violent felonies being caught with a gun.)
 
If there is no unwilling victim, then it shouldn't be against the law.

The children are an unwilling victim of their father's infidelity.
 
Not sure what the gun laws are like in Portugal but I do know its largest city Lisbon after Portugal decriminalizing all drugs in the country, became the safest capital city out of all the capital cities of Europe (I believe London is the capital of England).

The right-wing should be consistent with outlawing "freedoms" in order to eliminate injuries or deaths. And embrace outlawing all guns. In fact, any America caught with a gun could be shot and killed by American police in this ideal world. Or if not extra-judicially lynched (lynching can be any form of killing without trial) by police then any American caught with a gun given the death penalty.

Again... Lisbon versus the violence in a mid-sized American city:

Full article and news video: Milwaukee sees its most violent Memorial Day weekend in two years - TMJ4 Milwaukee, WI

Hate to sound too nationalistic about this, but Portuguese criminals and organized crime have never exactly struck fear into the hearts of the citizenry. American gangs are a lot more violent and well organized.

The fantasy that legalizing all drugs would get rid of crime is exactly that--- a fantasy.

That would hardly be an "ideal world".
 
If there is no unwilling victim, then it shouldn't be against the law.

People robbed or killed by addicts looking for cash in order to acquire more drugs could count.

So could family members/ children of addicts who are abused and neglected by the addicts.
 
and Trump says Dutarte is doing a good job on the war on drugs. Why not use those methods here, then?

What works in the Phillipines probably wouldn't work here. In this country we'd probably be better off legalizing a slew of drugs.
 
Killing those who breaks laws does not go against the Ten Commandments.

That's not what Duterte's religion teaches him... We have evolved since Leviticus. By your logic, murdering people and bearing false witness does not break any commandment?

But understandably, I will not jaywalk in your presence.
 
Hate to sound too nationalistic about this, but Portuguese criminals and organized crime have never exactly struck fear into the hearts of the citizenry. American gangs are a lot more violent and well organized.

The fantasy that legalizing all drugs would get rid of crime is exactly that--- a fantasy.

That would hardly be an "ideal world".
Legalizing all drugs would get rid of crime that is created by prohibition, of course. It's a multi-billion dollar industry, being run by violent thugs instead of responsible businesses thanks to prohibition. How many bloody wars are being waged by alcohol and tobacco cartels? None, because those drugs are legal and regulated instead of prohibited.

People robbed or killed by addicts looking for cash in order to acquire more drugs could count.

So could family members/ children of addicts who are abused and neglected by the addicts.
If they rob or kill, or abuse/neglect children, then punish them for that. But if they get high and sit on the couch watching MTV for the next six hours, that's nobody's business but theirs.

So you ignore the children now that you have no answer to that?
Is there an unwilling victim in your scenario?
 
Hate to sound too nationalistic about this, but Portuguese criminals and organized crime have never exactly struck fear into the hearts of the citizenry. American gangs are a lot more violent and well organized.

The fantasy that legalizing all drugs would get rid of crime is exactly that--- a fantasy.

As Binary_Digit pointed out in post #59 below, it's the prohibition largely driving much of the violence, at least in terms of drug dealers killing each other or shooting innocent kids by accident. As well as they don't respond like banks and credit unions when you owe them money and your late on payments. Kind of like mafia loan sharks did not respond like bankers to those that don't pay their financial debts to them. Do you need to make loaning money with interest illegal or do you simply have to keep the mafia out of it so as to reduce the chances of broken knees, people beaten with bats, or people shot for not making payments? That's not really the US Bank operates.

But I should point out here for sake of clarity that Portugal did *not* legalize drugs. They *decriminalized* drugs. I used to mistake the two as the same too. They are not the same though. Cocaine, heroin, meth and so on are still to sell in Portugal or to even posses in X quantity. What decriminalizing does it basically operate to make addictions or recreational use no longer criminal and punishable by jail or prison time. You are allowed to have X quantity on you in Portugal (can't remember what that quantity is).

Legalization would make it legal to sell and I suppose have an unlimited quantity on you or in your residence.

But equally important to the Portugal plan of decriminalization was/is there tactic of reintegrating drug addicts into the workforce. Whereas they are discriminated in and driven from the workforce in the USA. One might argue the latter approach only increases the likelihood or rates of petty thefts.

That would hardly be an "ideal world".

I don't think legalizing or decriminalizing drugs will get rid of crime. First of all, "crime" encompasses abroad range of things that can land you in jail. Defrauding investors, cheating on taxes, shooting cops, sexually molesting children, stalking a woman and raping her, driving while intoxicated over the legal limit.

The people in that Milwaukee article link were likely not gang members or if they were likely not shooting each other over something gang related. Very little gang related shooting and killings go on in Milwaukee any more, even among active gang members. Most shooting and murders in Milwaukee result from petty disputes (e.g., someone looked at you funny or for too many seconds, arguments over a girl, or you're selling drugs but some other drug dealer you "fronted" drugs to did not pay you back).

Actual heroin and crack addicts carry out very little (only a tiny fraction) of the violent crimes in Milwaukee. They do a lot of petty thefts though. But most *armed* robberies are carried out by thugs and gangsters not hooked on heroin or crack or meth.

Not that there aren't violent drug addicts. There are. Just as their are violent drunks. But drug addicts vary just like alcoholics. Look at the fat former mayor of Toronto who was a crack addict and considered by many to have been the best mayor Toronto ever had. And you have some alcoholics that are dirty, living homeless on the street. Some drug addicts like some people molest physically abuse their children. Some don't just like some people don't.

What I'm trying to say is one can make laws to prohibit things based out of a fear of what every single individual will do. Like say... alcohol or guns. You could prohibit both out of a fear of what might happen if any person in the country were in possession of either. But instead we arrest people if they shoot someone illegally, or if the drunk drive. Therefore, if a guy is high on heroin in his apartment why arrest him? If he drives high then arrest him. That kind of thing.
 
That's not what Duterte's religion teaches him... We have evolved since Leviticus. By your logic, murdering people and bearing false witness does not break any commandment?

But understandably, I will not jaywalk in your presence.

Actually, the death penalty is permissible in Catholicism.

And what bearing false witness?
 
Actually, the death penalty is permissible in Catholicism.

And what bearing false witness?

Catholics long ago abandoned support for the death penalty... As part of their pro-life stance which bishops refer to as a "seamless garment," reminiscent of Christ's robe the soldiers cast dice for, they have linked opposition to abortion, the death penalty and use of nuclear weapons. Most predominantly Catholic countries don't have the death penalty. Exceptions: Cuba still has it, and I think the Philippines may have it as well. But just about all nations condemn extrajudicial killings, even those that may practice it.
 
Catholics long ago abandoned support for the death penalty... As part of their pro-life stance which bishops refer to as a "seamless garment," reminiscent of Christ's robe the soldiers cast dice for, they have linked opposition to abortion, the death penalty and use of nuclear weapons. Most predominantly Catholic countries don't have the death penalty. Exceptions: Cuba still has it, and I think the Philippines may have it as well. But just about all nations condemn extrajudicial killings, even those that may practice it.

The death penalty is one thing, but shooting drug addicts and/or traffickers without trial is quite another. The latter is what Dutarte was doing, and what Trump congratulated him for.

Which raises the question of whether Trump would support a similar escalation of the war on drugs here in the states.
 
The death penalty is one thing, but shooting drug addicts and/or traffickers without trial is quite another. The latter is what Dutarte was doing, and what Trump congratulated him for.

Which raises the question of whether Trump would support a similar escalation of the war on drugs here in the states.

I am scarcely an apologist for Trump, but in my layman's analysis, I go with the Ryan principle: "He is still new at this." The guy never had a board of directors to check him and perhaps because of that seems uncomfortable with constitutional constraints. Note his praise of Saddam for his fights against extremists. Trump is probably ignorant of the fact that hard-ass approaches to law and order in many counties can create abuses or problems worse than the crimes fought, that the innocent victims can outnumber the "legit" targets of a crackdown. Combine his ignorance with his arrogance and you have a dangerous mixture.

Still, a Jeffersonian America should be a bit embarrassed at a guy who gets along famously with a family-run dictatorship in Arabia, but has repeated conflicts with our democratic allies. We used to stand for something. And our presidents used to know stuff.
 
Catholics long ago abandoned support for the death penalty... As part of their pro-life stance which bishops refer to as a "seamless garment," reminiscent of Christ's robe the soldiers cast dice for, they have linked opposition to abortion, the death penalty and use of nuclear weapons. Most predominantly Catholic countries don't have the death penalty. Exceptions: Cuba still has it, and I think the Philippines may have it as well. But just about all nations condemn extrajudicial killings, even those that may practice it.

Seamless garment is heresy pushed by Jesuits who have as much understanding of the faith as atheists.
 
I am scarcely an apologist for Trump, but in my layman's analysis, I go with the Ryan principle: "He is still new at this." The guy never had a board of directors to check him and perhaps because of that seems uncomfortable with constitutional constraints. Note his praise of Saddam for his fights against extremists. Trump is probably ignorant of the fact that hard-ass approaches to law and order in many counties can create abuses or problems worse than the crimes fought, that the innocent victims can outnumber the "legit" targets of a crackdown. Combine his ignorance with his arrogance and you have a dangerous mixture.

Still, a Jeffersonian America should be a bit embarrassed at a guy who gets along famously with a family-run dictatorship in Arabia, but has repeated conflicts with our democratic allies. We used to stand for something. And our presidents used to know stuff.

Exactly And dictatorships in Russia, in the Philippines, all over the world. It looks to me like he admires dictators because he wants to be one.
 
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