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The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budget

Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

zimmer said:
The flushing sound is coming from the wonderful State of Californizuela.

Can't they do better, and make an even bigger mess of it, so the state commits fiscal suicide sooner?

And we know, this isn't the full cost. It's way bigger, as all socialist schemes fail to predict future costs anywhere close to reality.
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That's bizarre... So, based on California population estimate of 39 million, that's $10,256.41 per person. Canada has country wide healthcare, and the costs is $3,961 per person, and we are completely covered for pretty near everything - every once in a while a story comes up about some "new, ground breaking" thing not being covered yet, but all the normal stuff is.

Gotta wonder why it's so expensive south of the border...I'd figure your buying power alone would have you under our cost. Instead it's almost 3 times as much. I'd have to question those numbers...
 
Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

MTAtech said:
What's the difference if I have to pay $12,000 a year for health insurance or if I pay the government $10,000 in taxes and the government provides my health insurance?
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$2K and who gets to pick your policy. What's the difference if you get to pick the color of your house or the government does?
 
Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

reinoe said:
There's a lot of unemployed liberals and illegal aliens out there voting to get free stuff at the expense of taxpayers.
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I would like to know how many illegals did manage to vote not only in California but in other places. The rules are so lax in most places, I image it wouldn't have been hard. And it's a safe bet that NONE of them would have voted Republican.

But California does have more than its fair share of snowflakes and other hard left thinking people and those are heavily concentrated in the largest population centers along the coast. And California has roughly three times more poor people dependent on government than any other state and those too are located mostly in those largest population centers. So if you have people voting for ONLY leftists plus a huge number of people are voting for the free stuff promised by those leftists, you have a formidable voting bloc that is not at all representative of most of the country.

The tragedy whether you are talking about universal healthcare or any other massive government programs, even contained within a single state, is that those voting in and administering those programs don't CARE what it costs. They figure there will be enough money to cover it while they are in office, and after they have feathered their own nest and assured their own fortunes, they will be long gone and somebody else will get the blame when it all collapses under its own weight.
 
Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

ludin said:
all the states that have tried VT was a big on realized that the cost to implement such a program exceed their entire budget plus more.
the tax increases required to pay for it would be astronomical and people would leave for cheaper area's.

even if you put this on a national scale at 10k a person you are look at a minimum of 4 trillion or so per year not including overhead.
that is new spending.

as much as liberals cry about france their taxes are outrageous and they are still running in the red.

SHI is financed by employer and employee payroll taxes (64%); a national earmarked income tax (16%); taxes levied on tobacco and alcohol, the pharmaceutical industry, and voluntary health insurance companies (12%); state subsidies (2%); and transfers from other branches of Social Security (6%) (Assurance Maladie, 2015.

so even if you split it evenly between your employer and you. you are paying 30% in payroll tax off the top.
of course we know that companies don't pay that so you are going to end up paying the full 64%.

this is france.

france has 66m people. we have ~5x that many. if they can't afford their healthcare system on that
our taxes will have to be way way higher.

who wants to spend 80% of their check to the government? not me I have family to take care of.

it gets even worse if it is means tested and x% of the population doesn't have to pay.
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I know: last time I visited European capitals it was hard to to move across town for all the anti-health care demonstrations. Signs read "WE WANT THE US SYSTEM!" and "WE ARE TOO HEALTHY!"... Friends in Seattle tell me you can hear the chants, "Take away our health care!" from BC.
 
Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

OlNate said:
That's bizarre... So, based on California population estimate of 39 million, that's $10,256.41 per person. Canada has country wide healthcare, and the costs is $3,961 per person, and we are completely covered for pretty near everything - every once in a while a story comes up about some "new, ground breaking" thing not being covered yet, but all the normal stuff is.
Gotta wonder why it's so expensive south of the border...I'd figure your buying power alone would have you under our cost. Instead it's almost 3 times as much. I'd have to question those numbers...
Click to expand...

Most-profitable-industries2.jpg

Health care is big business in the U.S. Notice it's health and financial at the top.

As an side, notice finance up there right next to it. That should make you scratch your head too. Finance, the place where someone takes your money, shuffles it, and may or may not return a gain to you. *really* adds value to the economy.

No, once we get the health care industry regulated better, be it from single payer or whatever, those costs will eventually come down.
We basically have a huge sector of our health care industry that is really sophisticated snake oil sellers. Much higher innovative fringe procedures and treatments, at 10x the cost, and 90% of the health outcome. But we can market the hell out of it to make you feel like the outcome is 200% better, after all, you get what you pay for right?
 
Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

reinoe said:
Most conservatives aren't willing to be paid protesters.
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you're right, most are too dumb and do it for free by being Trump supporters.
 
Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

reinoe said:
There's a lot of unemployed liberals and illegal aliens out there voting to get free stuff at the expense of taxpayers.
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You don't know what you're talking about
 
Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

OlNate said:
That's bizarre... So, based on California population estimate of 39 million, that's $10,256.41 per person. Canada has country wide healthcare, and the costs is $3,961 per person, and we are completely covered for pretty near everything - every once in a while a story comes up about some "new, ground breaking" thing not being covered yet, but all the normal stuff is.

Gotta wonder why it's so expensive south of the border...I'd figure your buying power alone would have you under our cost. Instead it's almost 3 times as much. I'd have to question those numbers...
Click to expand...

I have family in Canada. It's third rate healthcare, for a third-rate country. BTW... even after Obama's best try at American destruction, America is still 1st, there is no second, and anything that follows is a miserable third.

Waiting lists aren't healthcare, and those who can... jump the line (connections), or jump the country because they've got the money.

Free market care would sink prices. It always does. Otherwise we'd still be carrying around suitcases for mobile phones, at paying $10,000 for them, instead of the supercomputers we get today for a few hundred bucks.

Free markets always work. States control always fails.

Read Code Blue.
 
Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

Nickyjo said:
I know: last time I visited European capitals it was hard to to move across town for all the anti-health care demonstrations. Signs read "WE WANT THE US SYSTEM!" and "WE ARE TOO HEALTHY!"... Friends in Seattle tell me you can hear the chants, "Take away our health care!" from BC.
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congrats your post didn't address one thing I said, but typical.
let me know if you actually want to address something if that is fine.

I will just write you off as the typical liberal poster.
 
Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

Mach said:
Which is why we should do it at the federal level, not the state level.

Basically a 2% tax increase on the ultra-wealthy is all you'd need to do. Up to you rural Republicans. Who needs that welfare more, the ultra-rich or the average person?
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More "progressive math"? How, exactly, can about 18% of GDP be funded with a 2% tax increase on a portion of population?

EDIT: If that "progressive math" works out then a 12% tax increase on the ultra-wealthy would make everything "free". ;)
 
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Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

OlNate said:
That's bizarre... So, based on California population estimate of 39 million, that's $10,256.41 per person. Canada has country wide healthcare, and the costs is $3,961 per person, and we are completely covered for pretty near everything - every once in a while a story comes up about some "new, ground breaking" thing not being covered yet, but all the normal stuff is.

Gotta wonder why it's so expensive south of the border...I'd figure your buying power alone would have you under our cost. Instead it's almost 3 times as much. I'd have to question those numbers...
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I think Canada doesn't do any better. For sure a one parent, one child family gets tax breaks enough to get it down to that 3.9k figure, but for many, maybe most Canadians not so much:

. . .In 2013, a typical Canadian family of four can expect to pay $11,320 for public health care insurance. For the average family of two parents with one child that bill will be $10,989, and for the average family of two adults (without children) the bill comes to $11,381. As a result of lower average incomes and differences in taxation, the bills are smaller for the average unattached individual ($3,780), for the average one-parent-one-child family ($3,905), and the average one-parent two-child family ($3,387). But no matter the family type, the bill is not small, much less free. . .​
'Free' Health Care in Canada Costs More Than It's Worth*|*Nadeem Esmail

For quality, efficiency, effectiveness, and economy, no universal government program is likely to be superior in any way to goods and services provided by the private sector.
 
Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

Praxas said:
you're right, most are too dumb and do it for free by being Trump supporters.
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lol. You're embarrassing yourself. If a person has to get paid to protest, then the movement has no credibility: that's why all the recent marches and demonstrations have led to absolutely no change and have in fact, mostly been mocked by average people who don't care about politics. Furthermore, being paid less than minimum wage to protest is less than what most conservatives earn anyway.
 
Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

zimmer said:
Healthcare is not a human right. It's a service. You want Stone Age coverage... start calling it and treating it like a human right, and watch people flee from that option as a career.

Waiting lists do not constitute health care. That was a decision by the Quebec Supreme Court.

Kanuckistani Kare is typical of socialist schemes. If it is so great, why didn't Lib MP Stronach stick around and wait in line for breast cancer treatment like a good Austro-Kanuckistani? She didn't, she bolted to the US.

Why is it, that a mildly complicated birth was not manageable in cities of a million population (Calgary and Edmonton), and they had to send the patient to a town of 60,000 just south of the border?

I suggest you read Code Blue, written by David Gratzer, a Canadian MD who was educated in Canada and worked in the system.

Then get back to me.
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Huh...and here I've lived all my life in, what did you call it, Kanuckistan? And I've never once thought "Hmm...this free healthcare sucks. I wish I could pay for it instead." Nor has my family, and we've had our share of medical hardships. Nor has any of my friend, nor have I ever seen a demonstration about the quality of care. In fact, the only time I ever heard anything negative around our healthcare system has been when folks threatened to take it away (never totally, only fractionally), in exchange for tax cuts, and the odd time someone couldn't get access to new treatment that hadn't gone through the approval process yet.

Clearly we need you to come up here and tell us Kanuckistanis how it "really" is, think of all the fun we're missing, not being all angsty about our healthcare system, wasting all this time being healthy and not paying for it...please, zimmer, come on up, show us the way....lol...

Now, quick, go run along and find me the article that refutes my personal experience, and the experience of a majority of Canadians (sorry, Kanuckistanis). I'd suggest starting with The Rebel, it's our version of Breitbart, published by a similar gaggle of asshats that hate socialism and having to worry about anyone other than themselves. I'm sure you know better about my healthcare system that I do...
 
Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

AlbqOwl said:
I think Canada doesn't do any better. For sure a one parent, one child family gets tax breaks enough to get it down to that 3.9k figure, but for many, maybe most Canadians not so much:

. . .In 2013, a typical Canadian family of four can expect to pay $11,320 for public health care insurance. For the average family of two parents with one child that bill will be $10,989, and for the average family of two adults (without children) the bill comes to $11,381. As a result of lower average incomes and differences in taxation, the bills are smaller for the average unattached individual ($3,780), for the average one-parent-one-child family ($3,905), and the average one-parent two-child family ($3,387). But no matter the family type, the bill is not small, much less free. . .​
'Free' Health Care in Canada Costs More Than It's Worth*|*Nadeem Esmail

For quality, efficiency, effectiveness, and economy, no universal government program is likely to be superior in any way to goods and services provided by the private sector.
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Actually, if you run those numbers again, you'll see they are pretty much exactly as I said in my first post...hehe. Both numbers were calculated to a per person price, that $400 billion divided by 39 million people comes up at around the $10k/person.

You also need to remember no one gets a "bill" for their healthcare. It is taken from taxes, and that burden is shared with every tax payer, including corporations, in the country. So, personal cost is even lower.

The one thing that I won't blame you for not seeing is the source...not so much Huff Po, but the actual author...he's a senior with the Fraser Institute, which is a right wing / libertarian (self described) think tank organization. So, bias. Take it with a grain of salt.
 
Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

zimmer said:
I have family in Canada. It's third rate healthcare, for a third-rate country. BTW... even after Obama's best try at American destruction, America is still 1st, there is no second, and anything that follows is a miserable third.

Waiting lists aren't healthcare, and those who can... jump the line (connections), or jump the country because they've got the money.

Free market care would sink prices. It always does. Otherwise we'd still be carrying around suitcases for mobile phones, at paying $10,000 for them, instead of the supercomputers we get today for a few hundred bucks.

Free markets always work. States control always fails.

Read Code Blue.
Click to expand...

lol...I like you, you're funny. Also, can I have some of those drugs you're on? There's a couple things I'd like to delude myself about for a couple hours later on tonight, and you seem to have hit the pay dirt. Do share!! :)
 
Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

reinoe said:
I do.
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if you know whats going on and still make ridiculous posts that arent true than what the hell are you doing?
 
Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

OlNate said:
Actually, if you run those numbers again, you'll see they are pretty much exactly as I said in my first post...hehe. Both numbers were calculated to a per person price, that $400 billion divided by 39 million people comes up at around the $10k/person.

You also need to remember no one gets a "bill" for their healthcare. It is taken from taxes, and that burden is shared with every tax payer, including corporations, in the country. So, personal cost is even lower.

The one thing that I won't blame you for not seeing is the source...not so much Huff Po, but the actual author...he's a senior with the Fraser Institute, which is a right wing / libertarian (self described) think tank organization. So, bias. Take it with a grain of salt.
Click to expand...

I tend to trust more right leaning sources to do honest research on these things, but I will concede to your math. But I think 3.9k for healthcare per person is outrageous let along $10k. Put it back in the hands of the private sector and get government out of it entirely other than to evaluate the safety of drugs and procedures, and the cost drops to affordable levels for most. The government can then come up with an assigned risk pool or some such for the truly poor and harder or more expensive to insure just as it does for flood or earthquake insurance, work comp, general liability, etc.
 
Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

OlNate said:
Actually, if you run those numbers again, you'll see they are pretty much exactly as I said in my first post...hehe. Both numbers were calculated to a per person price, that $400 billion divided by 39 million people comes up at around the $10k/person.

You also need to remember no one gets a "bill" for their healthcare. It is taken from taxes, and that burden is shared with every tax payer, including corporations, in the country. So, personal cost is even lower.

The one thing that I won't blame you for not seeing is the source...not so much Huff Po, but the actual author...he's a senior with the Fraser Institute, which is a right wing / libertarian (self described) think tank organization. So, bias. Take it with a grain of salt.
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that doesn't change the numbers.

now that is 400b for 10k per person and Canada has about 36m people.

if you were to spend the same in the US it would be about 4 trillion dollars.

so let us look at taxes.

if you are making 75630 Canada that is about 53k American. your tax bill in Canada is 42%.
that is close the medium income in the US the median family income in the US is about 56k.
in Canada that would be about a 43% tax rate.

that is outrageous.

that won't even cover the 4 trillion dollar bill.

there are currently only 124.5m people working full time in the US.
that means each worker would have to pay 32k a year just in taxes to meet that requirement.

if all those people were making 56k a year which we know they are not it means that
their tax rate would be about 58% a year.

that is just full time people.
can add in part time and it might drop the rate a bit but it will still end up at about 40-45%.

now you sell that to a part time worker. good luck.

also then tell them that it doesn't cover.

prescription, eye, dental and they need to pay for it themselves or private insurance.
what a joke free healthcare. I don't see anything free about it.
 
Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

AlbqOwl said:
I tend to trust more right leaning sources to do honest research on these things....
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Why? Where have "right leaning sources" been more correct on calculations for universal health care?
 
Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

AlbqOwl said:
I tend to trust more right leaning sources to do honest research on these things, but I will concede to your math. But I think 3.9k for healthcare per person is outrageous let along $10k. Put it back in the hands of the private sector and get government out of it entirely other than to evaluate the safety of drugs and procedures, and the cost drops to affordable levels for most. The government can then come up with an assigned risk pool or some such for the truly poor and harder or more expensive to insure just as it does for flood or earthquake insurance, work comp, general liability, etc.
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I just ran the numbers it is outrageous the cost. also it doesn't cover medicine, eye, dental, long term care or home care.
you need additional insurance. which drives the cost up even more.
 
Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

AlbqOwl said:
I tend to trust more right leaning sources to do honest research on these things, but I will concede to your math. But I think 3.9k for healthcare per person is outrageous let along $10k. Put it back in the hands of the private sector and get government out of it entirely other than to evaluate the safety of drugs and procedures, and the cost drops to affordable levels for most. The government can then come up with an assigned risk pool or some such for the truly poor and harder or more expensive to insure just as it does for flood or earthquake insurance, work comp, general liability, etc.
Click to expand...

Hey, that's cool, we all pick our poison, just as long as we all remember that the leaning we subscribe to will come with it's own bias and agenda, and the right has always been tough on universal health care, so it's not surprising that their analysis of the data would lead them to the conclusions they lead to. Same would be able to be said about a left leaning think tank. From my experience, the reality almost always lies in the middle somewhere.

All I can tell you is that I've never met anyone pissed off about our healthcare system - aspects, sure, wait times are not always exaggerated, and some newer treatments take a while to get approved. But generally speaking, no one wishes we didn't have a single payer healthcare system. And we still have money to do a lot more in the areas you are talking about. Yes, we pay higher taxes. But we get a lot more for them.

Now we don't have a giant military...that's true... Personally I'd rather not have to sell my home due to some unexpected health issue. But then again, we haven't pissed off as many people as you guys have, so I get why a military is important...hehe :)
 
Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

ttwtt78640 said:
$2K and who gets to pick your policy. What's the difference if you get to pick the color of your house or the government does?
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I'm thinking Medicare for all. The government pays my doctor's bill.
 
Re: The price tag on universal health care is in, it’s bigger than California’s budge

ludin said:
congrats your post didn't address one thing I said, but typical.
let me know if you actually want to address something if that is fine.

I will just write you off as the typical liberal poster.
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Sorry, I was not trying to address your points, which appear appropriately cautionary, just trying to make the larger point that other developed countries have figured out how to do things to the general satisfaction of their citizens, much as the US has with Medicare, to my satisfaction and that of many other seniors. No doubt we and the Europeans may have to change or modify our various schemes for health care as time passes, but the worldwide trend in this area seemed to me to be away from the current or at least the pre-ACA system. California's health care idea may be as impractical as the bullet train may seem to be now (getting us out of cars might as hard as getting Europeans not to smoke) but presumably easier to modify as necessary -- tho I am cautious about the ability to change any government benefit.

I take comfort in how well Social Security and Medicare have worked for decades, despite apocalyptic predictions about the former in the 30s and Reagan's ridiculous rant about Medicare in the 60s.
 
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