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Down goes General Lee[W:525]

Re: Down goes General Lee

Crovax said:
Not true the union still had slaves during the civil war, Lincoln's proclamation on freed slaves in the confederacy, the union slave states kept right on enslaving humans.
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A point so many either do not know or simply refuse to believe.
 
Re: Down goes General Lee

Angel said:
I'm afraid slavery and racism are part of American history, part of the American heritage, whether we like it or not. The Civil War was a bloodbath of a corrective to an endemic racism inextricably involved in the very founding of our nation. The soldiers and generals fighting on both sides of that conflict inherited the original sin. To remove memorials to that soldiering on one side 150 years later betrays our history and our heritage. This Confederacy Cleansing is the worst kind of Liberal guilt running unchecked through Progressive intolerance and redounds to the harm of the nation, pal.
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The war was fought over secession.

One is either for secession or against secession.

The side for secession lost and the side against secession won. Game over.

Subsequent monuments and memorials that celebrate secession and that present secessionists as champions of all that is good and right are wrong.

My preference is to send the statues and memorials off to a federal prison facility to be chopped to rock dust. However, given both sides of the secession are Americans, we can put the stone monuments and marble heads to the federally designated historical Civil War sites. To properly condemn them. To include their racism which is both shameless and unrepentant.
 
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Re: Down goes General Lee

Beaudreaux said:
What about this one in New York? Should it be removed as well?

http://www.fortedwardchamber.org/fort.edward.history/rogers-rangers/images/rogersrangers-1.jpg[IMG][/quote]

No....because it commemorates and teaches about a historical location and one of the countries founders. The confederate monuments don't that.

[QUOTE]What about the grave stones of confederate soldiers or statues of confederates buried in national cemeteries? Should they be removed as well?[/QUOTE]

No. Cemeteries are the proper place to commemorate the dead and fallen soldiers.

[QUOTE]How far back in history do we go, or is it just the enslavement of blacks that matters, and the slaughter of Native Americans is not on the same level? How sanitized are we expected to make our public sphere?

If it's black enslavement that's the motivation, then when do we remove these monuments?

[IMG]https://washington-org.s3.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/jefferson-at-night_credit-carol-m.-highsmith-lib-of-congress.jpg[IMG]

[IMG]https://www.nps.gov/wamo/learn/historyculture/images/WAMO_Aerial.jpg[IMG][/QUOTE] No. Those are "national" monuments that commemorate and teach about the founders of the entire nation. The confederate monuments don't do that.
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Re: Down goes General Lee

Fritz said:
HEY, I consider myself "liberal" and I would never have condoned the removal of Lee's statue. It has historical merit. I'm a history buff. I'm sad now. People who don't know history are condemned to repeat it.
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Spoken like a condemned man.
 
Re: Down goes General Lee

apdst said:
Private funds put them up.
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Then they should be on private property...not public property.
 
Re: Down goes General Lee

I enjoy how liberals keep saying it won't happen again like they actually know what the future holds. Considering the north and south still don't get along and the north is STILL interested in pushing the south around it's not actually out of the question something like that happens again in the future at some point. Bad blood between people has a tendency to come to a boil at some point and when that happens it can easily means some kind of aggression will occur between them.
 
Re: Down goes General Lee

Fritz said:
I never tried to propose what to do with the statue, I am just against the fact that they just took it down. Yes, moving the statue would be a wiser option. GEEZE!!!

However, with the Emancipation Proclamation, the Union technically stated that the war was going to also be about slavery, along with secession.
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That was two years into the war after it became clear that the South wasn't going to give up.
 
Re: Down goes General Lee

Henrin said:
I enjoy how liberals keep saying it won't happen again like they actually know what the future holds. Considering the north and south still don't get along and the north is STILL interested in pushing the south around it's not actually out of the question something like that happens again in the future at some point.
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The Lost Cause has a lot to do with that....and that's what most of those southern monuments represent. Taking the confederate monuments down is good start to letting go of the confederacy and correcting the historical narrative.
 
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Re: Down goes General Lee

Moot said:
The Lost Cause has a lot to do with that....and that's what most of those southern monuments represent.
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No, it actually doesn't. The bad blood existed before the civil war because the north was pushing the south around and it exists today because they are still doing it. The fact is the country got over slavery, but the other causes of the civil war are still there boiling away.
 
Re: Down goes General Lee

Tigerace117 said:
That doesn't mean we have to celebrate racism and slavery, and I'd say guilt is a good thing considered how horrifically African Americans were treated both before and after the war.
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The "celebration" is all in the anachronistic Progressive mind. These monuments memorialize the war between the states. Guilt for something ancestors did is ****ing ridiculous, period.

Tangmo said:
The war was fought over secession.

One is either for secession or against secession.

The side for secession lost and the side against secession won. Game over.

Subsequent monuments and memorials that celebrate secession and that present secessionists as champions of all that is good and right are wrong.

My preference is to send the statues and memorials off to a federal prison facility to be chopped to rock dust. However, given both sides of the secession are Americans, we can put the stone monuments and marble heads to the federally designated historical Civil War sites. To properly condemn them. To include their racism which is both shameless and unrepentant.
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You're correct. The war was fought over secession, and the South was in the right on this issue. Because the North won doesn't change that.
 
Re: Down goes General Lee

Angel said:
This sounds like stupid Progressive mudslinging. Are you a Progressive in Independent's clothing?


No one could make this crap up, except Progressives like you. Stop trying to sanitize American heritage.
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Secession is not American Heritage.

Secession initiated a war of the states and secession was defeated by the states of the Union. This is American Heritage.

If the states of the Confederacy consider the defeat as their particular Heritage, then they'd need to accept the whole package. Racism without shame or being corrected is a part of the whole package. To the present time.

Correcting the war connected original sin of American racism begins by the shameless racist telling the meeting of the Heritage group that he's a shameless racist. Then to proceed in this corrective vein exactly.
 
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Re: Down goes General Lee

countryboy said:
By her logic, shouldn't George Washington be removed from history as well? Wasn't he a slave owner?

Maybe we could put Karl Marx on the dollar. :shrug:
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George Washington was the first president of the United States and a founder of the country and lived before the Civil war and emancipation. The Confederates were not the founders and committed treason against the country. Had they won the war it would be a different story...but they didn't.
 
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Re: Down goes General Lee

Moot said:
That was two years into the war after it became clear that the South wasn't going to give up.
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True, but it proves that the war evolved.
 
Re: Down goes General Lee

Angel said:
The "celebration" is all in the anachronistic Progressive mind. These monuments memorialize the war between the states. Guilt for something ancestors did is ****ing ridiculous, period.


You're correct. The war was fought over secession, and the South was in the right on this issue. Because the North won doesn't change that.
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The South was on the wrong side of history. Slavery held the South back from progressing and contributed to the extreme poverty that still exists in the South today.
 
Re: Down goes General Lee

Fritz said:
True, but it proves that the war evolved.
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It evolved into one of the bloodiest wars in human history....and for what?
 
Re: Down goes General Lee

Moot said:
George Washington was a founder of the country and lived before the Civil war and emancipation. The Confederates were not the founders and committed treason against the country. Had they won the war it would be a different story...but they didn't.
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You're making up new rules out of thin air to not stick to your logic.
 
Re: Down goes General Lee

Tangmo said:
Secession is not American Heritage.
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I beg to differ with you, friend. Secession is as much a part of America's heritage as revolution. Neither can be denied.

Tangmo said:
Secession initiated a war of the states and secession was defeated by the states of the Union.

If the states of the Confederacy consider the defeat as their Heritage, then they'd need to accept the whole package. Which is that their Heritage is predicated in defeat in the war of secession they began. Racism without shame or being corrected is a part of the whole package. To the present time.

Correcting the war connected original sin of American racism begins by the shameless racist telling the meeting of the Heritage group that he's a shameless racist. Then to proceed in this corrective vein exactly.
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This portion of your post is incoherent. It's not clear what you're arguing except that the war was fought over secession, which you already said in a previous post. Something there about racism and guilt, but I can't tell what. Would you be so kind as to clarify this post?
 
Re: Down goes General Lee

Moot said:
It evolved into one of the bloodiest wars in human history....and for what?
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Are we talking about the American Civil War, 1861-1865? Terrible war but not even a contender for "bloodiest in human history", bloodiest in American history, yes.
 
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Re: Down goes General Lee

Moot said:
It evolved into one of the bloodiest wars in human history....and for what?
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Well to eventually give fully rights to African Americans, and it strengthened the federal government's power.
 
Re: Down goes General Lee

Moot said:
The South was on the wrong side of history. Slavery held the South back from progressing and contributed to the extreme poverty that still exists in the South today.
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I have no quarrel with this assessment.
 
Re: Down goes General Lee

Tangmo said:
Secession is not American Heritage.

Secession initiated a war of the states and secession was defeated by the states of the Union. This is American Heritage.

If the states of the Confederacy consider the defeat as their particular Heritage, then they'd need to accept the whole package. Racism without shame or being corrected is a part of the whole package. To the present time.

Correcting the war connected original sin of American racism begins by the shameless racist telling the meeting of the Heritage group that he's a shameless racist. Then to proceed in this corrective vein exactly.
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Secession by itself doesn't have a thing to do with war. War only ever comes into the equation when the existing country refuses to play along or the new country that is succeeding make an aggressive move. In the case of the civil war both of those possibilities happened, which is actually what lead to war.

Also, northerners have to learn to **** off when it comes to sourthern culture. Your opinion is not welcome, not needed, and frankly you need to stop talking.
 
Re: Down goes General Lee

Angel said:
I beg to differ with you, friend. Sessession is as much a part of America's heritage as revolution. Neither can be denied.


This portion of your post is incoherent. It's not clear what you're arguing except that the war was fought over secession, which you already said in a previous post. Something there about racism and guilt, but I can't tell what. Would you be so kind as to clarify this post?
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So is stupidity and what those rich plantation owners did to poor southerners should have got them strung up. Their greed murdered 10's of 1000's of poor stupid southerners as well as northerners too. They never has any chance of winning and were too greedy and stupid to know it.
 
Re: Down goes General Lee

Henrin said:
You're making up new rules out of thin air to not stick to your logic.
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No, I'm not....you are. What do Karl Marx, ISIS, George Washington have to do with the Civil War and emancipation? Are there any fallacies left that you haven't tried to defend the Lost Cause?
 
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