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[W:256]What is a Liberal?

Re: What is a Liberal?

ecofarm said:
What it means to me, regardless of modern or local/national parlance?

Liberal social policy: let people do what they want.
Liberal economic policy: let people do what they want with their money.
Liberal foreign policy: the pursuit of global liberation.

For the philosophical cornerstones of this, see signature.
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Crovax said:
:rofl:
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I'd have to agree.

"Liberal economic policy: let people do what they want with their money."

Yet it's the liberals that seem to want an overly large, overly expensive, and overly intrusive government, which continues to confiscate ever more money from the taxpayers. This doesn't jive at all with with "let people do what they want with their money.", which would seem to be are far more libertarian position.
 
Re: What is a Liberal?

Whythink said:
Should I use Westboro protesters to define conservatives? Seriously.

I recognize there are smart good people who disagree with me politically.

Do you?

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No you can't, because the 20some people, all related, who make up the Westboro church don't call themselves Conservatives and definitely were never endorsed by the GOP or any other conservatives. The Westboro protests were pointed toward both Democrats and Republicans.

The people shutting down Free Speech definitely call themselves Progressive or Liberal and in the past they have been endorsed by mainstream Democrats, although some today are hedging and speaking out against AntiFa in an obvious effort to cover themselves.
 
Re: What is a Liberal?

JMaximus said:
... or what is liberalism?

Anyone who reads my profile will see that I identify myself as "very liberal". But what does that mean?

What is a liberal?

For me, a liberal believes in:
  • the right of self determination, including
    • democratic governance (not only that the government is determined democratically, but that the government exists democratically for the sole benefit of those who determine it - of the people, by the people, for the people,
    • nationhood as a means for protecting welfare and promoting collective goals,
    • the rights of people to improve their lives,
    • the right to be armed - or to possess the means, or access to the means, for protecting oneself,
    • freedom of speech and thought
  • individual equality under the law, dependent on
    • the predictable and fair application of laws (rule of law), especially the principle that laws only apply to (and by extension offer protections to) the people who determine those laws (part of 'fair application'),
    • indifference of the law to traits such as race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc.
    • freedom of speech and thought
If this list looks short, it's that way on purpose: I am hungry.

Discuss.
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"Classical Liberal", very similar to the Founders, just updated to a more modern viewpoint.

But in modern terms, about mid-way between Conservative and Libertarian. You won't get invited to many modern-Liberal parties with some of those beliefs.




Most of this thread, btw, is a hilarious take on how all these labels have become nearly meaningless, and certainly unrelated to their origins.
 
Re: What is a Liberal?

Casca XV said:
No you can't, because the 20some people, all related, who make up the Westboro church don't call themselves Conservatives and definitely were never endorsed by the GOP or any other conservatives. The Westboro protests were pointed toward both Democrats and Republicans.

The people shutting down Free Speech definitely call themselves Progressive or Liberal and in the past they have been endorsed by mainstream Democrats, although some today are hedging and speaking out against AntiFa in an obvious effort to cover themselves.
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So that maybe wasn't the best example. However, I would argue that anyone who believes the violent shut-down of speech represents the majority of people who identify as liberal is at a minimum a fool.

Likely a person who refuses to acknowledge good, smart patriots can be liberal or conservative.

Liberal v. Conservative is not good v. evil

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Re: What is a Liberal?

faithful_servant said:
Yet liberals also believe in focring people to carry out actions they find morally wrong



Then you live in the wrong country. This is not a Democracy, it is a Constitutional Republic.


That's what laws and personal responsibility are for.


No. The support of ever increasing taxes to punish success proves this one to be a lie.


Serioulsy??? It's the Left that has fought against 2nd Amendment rights


Only as long as it lines up with liberal accepted speech and thought as seen in places like Berkeley and Portland.


Yet liberals support giving specific groups additional rights


Again, liberals support laws which apply the law differently to people based on their identity


As far from wrong as it's possible to get. Liberals FOCUS on those traits and judge people by them.


As long as it lines with liberal speech and thoought
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Do you think everything 'left' is liberal? It ain't, you know. For example, anyone who wants to apply the law differently according to race, ethnicity, whatever, isn't a liberal, I don't care what you, he, or anyone else says.
 
Re: What is a Liberal?

Casca XV said:
Today there are two types of Liberals:

1. Leftist Socialists attempting to lie about what they are.

2. Useful Idiots who join up because they think it’s cool or they like a social issue (abortion, gay rights). But they don’t realize they are giving support to the most destructive political/economic ideology the world has ever seen.

Decades ago the term "Liberal" described what a Libertarian is today: an open minded free thinker who loves individual freedom and limited power Government.

Over the years, in a propaganda effort Leftist Socialist hijacked the term. Today people calling themselves Liberal are the most closed minded totalitarian segment of Americans.
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The word means the same. It's just people like you who have it all confused.
 
Re: What is a Liberal?

Grand Mal said:
The word means the same. It's just people like you who have it all confused.
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The Progressive Liberal ideas of the American Founding Fathers are the Conservative Libertarian values of today.

The Progressive Liberal values of today are the ideas of Marx, Stalin and Lenin.
 
Re: What is a Liberal?

Whythink said:
So that maybe wasn't the best example. However, I would argue that anyone who believes the violent shut-down of speech represents the majority of people who identify as liberal is at a minimum a fool.

Likely a person who refuses to acknowledge good, smart patriots can be liberal or conservative.

Liberal v. Conservative is not good v. evil

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Liberalism today is a synonym for Socialism. Socialism can not exist or function without reduced individual freedom and an all powerful government. I call that Evil, especially considering without an all powerful government it is impossible to have a Holocaust or Gulag situation.

As religiously judgmental as Conservatives can be their most fundamental desire is for individual freedom and a limited power government.
 
Re: What is a Liberal?

Casca XV said:
Liberalism today is a synonym for Socialism. Socialism can not exist or function without reduced individual freedom and an all powerful government. I call that Evil, especially considering without an all powerful government it is impossible to have a Holocaust or Gulag situation.

As religiously judgmental as Conservatives can be their most fundamental desire is for individual freedom and a limited power government.
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Unless your individual freedom goes against their religious judgement

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Re: What is a Liberal?

Whythink said:
Unless your individual freedom goes against their religious judgement

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Except they have only the word to influence, Liberals use Govt force.
 
Re: What is a Liberal?

Master PO said:
conflict in your posting, democratic forms of government are collective and not based on individualism
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No there isn't. Laws are determined collectively that apply equally to each and all individuals.

There is no conflict in that at all.
 
Re: What is a Liberal?

JMaximus said:
No there isn't. Laws are determined collectively that apply equally to each and all individuals.

There is no conflict in that at all.
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wrong, democracy is collective, and America was created on individualism.

the constitution when created was meant to block the collective capacity of the people from making any laws, because collectism in law making is dangerous because it violates individual rights and the powers of the state governments.


federalist 63- The true distinction between these and the American governments, lies IN THE TOTAL EXCLUSION OF THE PEOPLE, IN THEIR COLLECTIVE CAPACITY, from any share in the LATTER, and not in the TOTAL EXCLUSION OF THE REPRESENTATIVES OF THE PEOPLE from the administration of the FORMER.

Madison makes it a point the people can vote collectively, but they cannot make law collectively because the senate is not in the hands of the people ,but instead the state governments, by having it in the hands of the states government this gives us a separation of powers, so that the people cannot violate the powers of the state governments, and the state governments cannot violate the rights of the people using federal law.
 
Re: What is a Liberal?

Casca XV said:
Liberalism today is a synonym for Socialism. Socialism can not exist or function without reduced individual freedom and an all powerful government. I call that Evil, especially considering without an all powerful government it is impossible to have a Holocaust or Gulag situation.

As religiously judgmental as Conservatives can be their most fundamental desire is for individual freedom and a limited power government.
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Casca XV said:
The Progressive Liberal ideas of the American Founding Fathers are the Conservative Libertarian values of today.

The Progressive Liberal values of today are the ideas of Marx, Stalin and Lenin.
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Sadly. Though I do prefer my definition, which is more in line with the enlightened liberalism of the Founding Fathers, I typically use it in my daily life with it's implanted meaning (which I'd describe as Leftist fascism).

The usurpation of the term by the Left doesn't sit well with me.
 
Re: What is a Liberal?

Casca XV said:
Liberalism today is a synonym for Socialism. Socialism can not exist or function without reduced individual freedom and an all powerful government. I call that Evil, especially considering without an all powerful government it is impossible to have a Holocaust or Gulag situation.

As religiously judgmental as Conservatives can be their most fundamental desire is for individual freedom and a limited power government.
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Master PO said:
wrong, democracy is collective, and America was created on individualism.

the constitution when created was meant to block the collective capacity of the people from making any laws, because collectism in law making is dangerous because it violates individual rights and the powers of the state governments.


federalist 63- The true distinction between these and the American governments, lies IN THE TOTAL EXCLUSION OF THE PEOPLE, IN THEIR COLLECTIVE CAPACITY, from any share in the LATTER, and not in the TOTAL EXCLUSION OF THE REPRESENTATIVES OF THE PEOPLE from the administration of the FORMER.

Madison makes it a point the people can vote collectively, but they cannot make law collectively because the senate is not in the hands of the people ,but instead the state governments, by having it in the hands of the states government this gives us a separation of powers, so that the people cannot violate the powers of the state governments, and the state governments cannot violate the rights of the people using federal law.
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I do not consider direct democracy a necessary feature of liberalism. Representational democracy works just fine.

But either way you are still wrong to believe there is a contradiction between collectively determined laws and those same laws applying equally to individuals.
 
Re: What is a Liberal?

JMaximus said:
I do not consider direct democracy a necessary feature of liberalism. Representational democracy works just fine.

But either way you are still wrong to believe there is a contradiction between collectively determined laws and those same laws applying equally to individuals.
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democracy as a form of government is unstable and always fails.

the founders create a republican form of government, which only has 1 single element of democracy in it, the house of representatives

when the power of law making is only put into the hands of people who are directly elected by the people, then who are the laws made for ? .............those of the majority.

the people who hold the majority care about their own self interest, they don't care about state powers and individual rights when they rule by that majority, which is why collectivism in government is evil and leads to disaster
 
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Re: What is a Liberal?

Casca XV said:
The Progressive Liberal ideas of the American Founding Fathers are the Conservative Libertarian values of today.

The Progressive Liberal values of today are the ideas of Marx, Stalin and Lenin.
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liberal
ADJECTIVE

1Willing to respect or accept behaviour or opinions different from one's own; open to new ideas.
‘liberal views towards divorce’

1.1 Favourable to or respectful of individual rights and freedoms.
‘liberal citizenship laws’

1.2 (in a political context) favouring individual liberty, free trade, and moderate political and social reform.
‘a liberal democratic state’

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/liberal
 
Re: What is a Liberal?

Trippy Trekker said:
To help those of you confused over differences between Liberals and Conservatives, I have provided a brief description of both.

Liberals:
-tip generously, wait longer between haircuts and lawn cuts, take life in stride, help strangers, put others ahead of themselves, spew love and peace, smile a lot, have an optimistic and inclusive attitude, make hard work look easy, and focus on the common welfare for the benefit of the most people.

Conservatives, on the other hand:
- have a stingy and judgmental nature, insist on conformity, focus on criticizing other people's values instead of their own, show strangers disdain, glorify themselves, spew hate and discord, frown a lot, have a pessimistic and exclusionary attitude, a sense of entitlement and couldn't give a rat's ass about the common welfare.
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Why do libs feel the need to lie and project? Can't your idelogy stand on it's own four legs without slandering conservatism? Evidently not. :roll:
 
Re: What is a Liberal?

countryboy said:
Why do libs feel the need to lie and project? Can't your idelogy stand on it's own four legs without slandering conservatism? Evidently not. :roll:
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So you pick that post. How about the post calling liberal evil, suggesting that the holocaust couldn't happen without it.
Interesting when you make that point while ignoring the conservatives doing the same.
I will ask you, are there smart, patriots who are liberal?
Is conservative v. liberal equal to good v. evil?

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Re: What is a Liberal?

Whythink said:
So you pick that post. How about the post calling liberal evil, suggesting that the holocaust couldn't happen without it.
Interesting when you make that point while ignoring the conservatives doing the same.
I will ask you, are there smart, patriots who are liberal?
Is conservative v. liberal equal to good v. evil?

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Rank and file modern libs aren't inherently evil, just moronic dupes. The Democrat leadership? Evil (for the most part). Sorry. :shrug:
 
Re: What is a Liberal?

Casca XV said:
This is Liberalism today: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...mO0C0vJ8BFVwkax8g&sig2=VtFaeJvSF0IqV0J3WVfNSQ
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As usual, you mistakenly equate Liberals with Misfits. The Misfits carry banners, weaponize and represent the outliers and extreme elements of both Right and Left Wing Ideologies.

The neighborhoods in Florida and along the south to north Eastern United States that I hang in don't have serious problems with misfits. If we did, I would actively involve myself in combating their behavior. This problem with misfits disrupting events and inciting violence occurs more often in the Western Regions of the U.S. What have you done to combat their behavior besides expressing opinions on an online board?
 
Re: What is a Liberal?

Grand Mal said:
Do you think everything 'left' is liberal? It ain't, you know. For example, anyone who wants to apply the law differently according to race, ethnicity, whatever, isn't a liberal, I don't care what you, he, or anyone else says.
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Then you are defining a group that is well outside of what most people consider to be "liberal".
 
Re: What is a Liberal?

countryboy said:
Why do libs feel the need to lie and project? Can't your idelogy stand on it's own four legs without slandering conservatism? Evidently not. :roll:
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Some people, no matter what ideology they identify with, lack the ability to articulate their viewpoints. I have read enough of your posts to identify you as a Conservative. To each their own. In spite of our differences, we can still find common ground. Peace to you and yours!
 
Re: What is a Liberal?

Casca XV said:
Liberalism today is a synonym for Socialism. Socialism can not exist or function without reduced individual freedom and an all powerful government. I call that Evil, especially considering without an all powerful government it is impossible to have a Holocaust or Gulag situation.

As religiously judgmental as Conservatives can be their most fundamental desire is for individual freedom and a limited power government.
Click to expand...

Master PO said:
democracy as a form of government is unstable and always fails.

the founders create a republican form of government, which only has 1 single element of democracy in it, the house of representatives

when the power of law making is only put into the hands of people who are directly elected by the people, then who are the laws made for ? .............those of the majority.

the people who hold the majority care about their own self interest, they don't care about state powers and individual rights when they rule by that majority, which is why collectivism in government is evil and leads to disaster
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You're talking nonsense.

Collectively established laws can still be applied equally to individuals.
 
Re: What is a Liberal?

JMaximus said:
You're talking nonsense.

Collectively established laws can still be applied equally to individuals.
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if you have collective , then whats the object of the group, to base things on the group not the individual.

collectivism is in contrast to individualism
 
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