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Let's Ban Pit Bulls

matchlight said:
Just what a measure to ban a breed of dog as unacceptably dangerous has to do with repealing a part of the Constitution which guarantees a fundamental individual right, only you know. But I am glad to see you make your animosity toward that fundamental right so clear.
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You seem really confused. This isn't a constitutional discussion. Whatever hatred for freedom you might have is not going to be convincing to other people.
 
blackjack50 said:
People have no clue what. A "pit bull" is.

And they will label a dog a "pit" if it looks like...but is not actually a pit.

Seriously. Spend some time in an animal hospital and get to know the actual dog you want banned.
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This is another tactic of pit bull apologists.

They try to say it's impossible to ban them because they can't be identified.

The COURTS have made it clear that this tactic is bogus.

Who Can Identify a Pit Bull? A Dog Owner of 'Ordinary Intelligence' Say the High Courts - DogsBite.org

"Pit bull dogs possess unique and readily identifiable physical and behavioral traits which are capable of recognition both by dog owners of ordinary intelligence..." - Ohio v. Anderson, Supreme Court of Ohio (1991)
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blackjack50 said:
Bad owners make bad dogs.

Or

Ignorant owners

I'm curious. Sense obviously your pitt was in the past...were you a newer owner at that time? How much socialization did it have?

Me and my girlfriend have ours out in public ALL the time. Bass pro, dog park, walks, beach, restaurants. She has never offered to bite anyone.


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From my perspective, people who really love dogs want to say it is always the owner's fault.

In a sense, maybe you're right. Again, having dealt with literally thousands of OPDs and their owners, I can say this: the SINGLE most common fault is the owner thinks "my dog is good to me and my family, therefore he is a good dog and won't hurt anyone needlessly." That, and anthropomorphic thinking... making the dog human in behavior instead of understanding that a dog is a pack animal with predatory and territorial instincts.

If I had a dollar for every time I've heard "Well I don't understand, I've never seen him act that way before!" I'd retire.


As for my pit-mix dog, he developed his aggression towards non-packmates entirely on his own. It came as a huge surprise when he was a little over a year old, and came on quite suddenly. He'd always been perfectly tame with me and my son, and nervous but well behaved with others up to that point. This was 17 years ago now; I had much less experience with dogs then but wasn't entirely ignorant of them. Then as now I lived down in the woods on the on the old family farm. There are no beaches, dog parks, dog walks or other dog-friendly places nearby. We were somewhat isolated yes, but he did see other people every week. That doesn't explain how the dog went from ok with other people to suddenly wanting to attack everyone who wasn't me or my son.
 
PirateMk1 said:
If you banned cats around my place the rodent population would go up dramatically, despite me having dogs. Dogs aren't as good or dedicated to hunting rodents as cats IMO. The dogs are good at keeping the coyote and other bigger varmints in check.
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If you really want to get rid of rodents, use pigs. We used to loan ours out to our friends/neighbors to clear their fields of moles and other vermin. We'd turn them loose in a field and those hogs would go hog-wild tearing up the ground for those tasty little morsels of rodentia.
 
Midwest Lib said:
Then thats a much more reasonable response than my gut instinct told me. Thanks for clarifying
I, like others, have had no bad pit experiences (quite the opposite) so i fall into the bad owner rather than bad dog camp but i imagine id feel differently if personally affected
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Don't assume my personal experience is the sole criteria for my opinion. I've done the research.

Those dogs are worse than useless...they are bombs with random triggers.
 
Ikari said:
last year pit bulls killed 22 people. How many pits are in the US? How many are out biting people? Obviously, the majority are not. It's the owner, not the dog.
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Yep. If people started training Newfies as attack dogs, they'd be at the top of the list. If laws are needed to curtail this, then pass laws where a dog owner can be charged with criminally negligent homicide if their dog kills someone without cause or be charged with a specific level of assault if their dog bites someone without cause.
 
faithful_servant said:
Yep. If people started training Newfies as attack dogs, they'd be at the top of the list. If laws are needed to curtail this, then pass laws where a dog owner can be charged with criminally negligent homicide if their dog kills someone without cause or be charged with a specific level of assault if their dog bites someone without cause.
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The first thing we have to recognize is that dogs are self-willed and do things for their own reasons, and their own reasons (drives) are not the same as human behavior. They're pack animals with predatory instincts.

Some of them are also part Houdini, and no matter how carefully contained will sometimes find or make a way out, unless kept in a kennel with mesh on all six sides.

Also any dog may bite under certain circumstances, and not necessarily when "provoked" for human values of "provoked". For instance a lot of people don't know that dogs can feel cornered when they see things in their peripheral vision, even though they really have a lane of retreat, and this can cause a scared dog to suddenly turn and attack.
 
Vox said:
Except......I have worked with dogs......trained and used working dogs of several breeds, for about 60 years.

Since I was a child.

And I love dogs.

So get off your high horse.

Pit bulls are genetically programmed to kill. Nothing can change that fact. If triggered they are programmed to focus, finish the job......eliminate the opponent. They have the tools to do it.

Though most are nice dogs, especially those raised by good owners.......They ALL have the programming to some extent, and nobody can tell which of them will suddenly and without warning be triggered to kill something or someone.

Don't think a mixed breed is immune........a pit/Labrador mix may retain a huge amount of the killing instinct......no way to tell until it happens.

Bottom line.....no way to predict anything with a pit bull or pit bull mix.

So don't let your emotions rule your thinking on this........it's a decision to be made based on facts.

:2usflag:
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I MIGHT buy that you have worked with some inbred dip**** Shepherds with hip dysplasia, but you clearly haven't worked with DOGS. Dogs CAN be trained and CAN be predictable. Especially if you aren't a complete and total moron.

I've been around dogs, INCLUDING pits, for damn near 29 years. I was and worked in an animal hospital. I've NEVER seen a dog "randomly attack" except for "cocker rage or SOIA." Something that you RARELY see in dogs, let alone pits. I've seen people not paying attention to their animals, I've seen dogs who are in pain and get touched and get pissed, kennel aggression, and so on.

Dogs don't "just snap." That is hilariously misguided and ignorant as a statement. It ignores that dogs are actually trainable animals. And they have warning signs. You obviously don't know them and haven't worked with pits. Let me guess? You got bit one time by something resembling a pit?


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Ikari said:
I'm not missing the statistic. It's isolated cases, and in most cases likely has more to do with the upbringing/training of the animal than the breed itself.
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Myth.

Read all about it.

Pit Bull Myths - Dangerous Dogs - DogsBite.org

The outdated debate, "It's the owner, not the breed," has caused the pit bull problem to grow into a 30-year old problem.1 Designed to protect pit bull breeders and owners, the slogan ignores the genetic history of the breed and blames these horrific maulings -- inflicted by the pit bull's genetic "hold and shake" bite style -- on environmental factors. While environment plays a role in a pit bull's behavior, it is genetics that leaves pit bull victims with permanent and disfiguring injuries.

The pit bull's genetic traits are not in dispute. Many appellate courts agree that pit bulls pose a significant danger to society and can be regulated accordingly. Some of the genetic traits courts have identified include: unpredictability of aggression, tenacity ("gameness" the refusal to give up a fight), high pain tolerance and the pit bull's "hold and shake" bite style.2 According to forensic medical studies, similar injuries have only been found elsewhere on victims of shark attacks.3

Purveyors of this myth also cannot account for the many instances in which pit bull owners and their family members are victimized by their pet dogs. From 2005 to 2016, pit bulls killed 254 Americans, about one citizen every 17 days. Of these deaths, 52% involved a family member and a household pit bull.4 Notably, in the first 8 months of 2011, nearly half of those killed by a pit bull was its owner.
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:2usflag:
 
Vox said:
Since the article is about dogs in general it has nothing to do with a pit bull discussion.

:2usflag:
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Since you aren't willing to educate yourself with the entire study, I'll just skip to the important part:

"If, then, there is a genetic component to some aspects of behavior that have a clear impact on human–dog interaction, can bans targeting “bad dog” breeds such as pit bulls, or profiling based on genes in general, be justified by maintaining the position that behavior is a product of genetic tendencies as well? Evidence suggests that the answer is no."

And we're done.
 
Here is a good example of the topic:

I grew up in an animal hospital. Large and small animal. Tons of dogs. Tons of cats. Horses, goats, cows, sheep. One time I had a bad experience with a horse. I've never really had a good experience with one.

To this day? I won't go near them. They are big and I don't trust them. Don't like them. Can't stand riding them or being around them. But I have no problems with other people having them. I'm not making laws based on that. I will leave that suggestion to people with experience and not let my FEAR of horses be the judge.


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Goshin said:
The first thing we have to recognize is that dogs are self-willed and do things for their own reasons, and their own reasons (drives) are not the same as human behavior. They're pack animals with predatory instincts.

Some of them are also part Houdini, and no matter how carefully contained will sometimes find or make a way out, unless kept in a kennel with mesh on all six sides.

Also any dog may bite under certain circumstances, and not necessarily when "provoked" for human values of "provoked". For instance a lot of people don't know that dogs can feel cornered when they see things in their peripheral vision, even though they really have a lane of retreat, and this can cause a scared dog to suddenly turn and attack.
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This is why when you take your dog into public...you must be weary of children and anyone who is mentally ill. Not so much because they are "threats," but you may not predict their action and they may scare the dog who might fear bite.

I saw a homeless dude get bit by a lab when he kinda did this weird excited jump to pet it. Obviously mentally ill man. Dog bit him and the dude just ran off. Felt bad for him. And the owner.


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blackjack50 said:
I've been around dogs, INCLUDING pits, for damn near 29 years. I was and worked in an animal hospital. I've NEVER seen a dog "randomly attack" except for "cocker rage or SOIA." Something that you RARELY see in dogs, let alone pits. I've seen people not paying attention to their animals, I've seen dogs who are in pain and get touched and get pissed, kennel aggression, and so on.
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Your limited anecdotal experience is at odds with the facts about pit bulls.

Take some time to read some of the comprehensive links I've provided.

In addition, here's a helpful list of FAQs.

Pit Bull FAQ - Dangerous Dogs - DogsBite.org

:2usflag:
 
Vox said:
Wrong......that's just ONE pit bull myth.

Here are a few more:

Pit Bull Myths - Dangerous Dogs - DogsBite.org
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http://btoellner.typepad.com/kcdogblog/2010/03/the-truth-behind-dogsbiteorg.htmll

A website run almost entirely by a dog bite victim and not backed by the significant majority of dog/human interaction organizations.

Try posting something from a reputable source that actually interacts with pit bulls.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thedodo.com/pit-bull-service-dog-1009366061.amp.html


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blackjack50 said:
This is why when you take your dog into public...you must be weary of children and anyone who is mentally ill. Not so much because they are "threats," but you may not predict their action and they may scare the dog who might fear bite.

I saw a homeless dude get bit by a lab when he kinda did this weird excited jump to pet it. Obviously mentally ill man. Dog bit him and the dude just ran off. Felt bad for him. And the owner.


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Was the lab's owner a "bad dog owner"?

Or was the dog just being a dog and nobody anticipated that some random human behavior was going to set him off?
 
Vox said:
Your limited anecdotal experience is at odds with the facts about pit bulls.

Take some time to read some of the comprehensive links I've provided.

In addition, here's a helpful list of FAQs.

Pit Bull FAQ - Dangerous Dogs - DogsBite.org

:2usflag:
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Again. A biased website created by someone who was bitten by a pit bull and now is a rabid zealot against pits who had admitted to artificially inflating numbers on the site to include dogs that are not actually pit bulls. Please. Reference something reputable instead of this nonsense.

Again. My "limited" experience was significantly more than when this lady created her website to hate pit bulls. My experience has since grown. I am a foster for dogs and an owner of a Pitt. I can tell you that the worst dogs in my personal experience have been GSDs, but even still I don't condemn them. They are great dogs that require specific handling. Like all dogs.

But this twit you keep quoting wouldn't know a bull dog from a wolfhound. She is a
Dumbass.


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Goshin said:
Was the lab's owner a "bad dog owner"?

Or was the dog just being a dog and nobody anticipated that some random human behavior was going to set him off?
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Good question. I'd probably say that the owner should have paid more attention...it is their responsibility in public. Just like mine when I take mine or when I carry a gun.

But does that absolve the homeless man? Or the dog? I mean can you predict random? Should we teach kids how to act around dogs?


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Vox said:
Except......I have worked with dogs......trained and used working dogs of several breeds, for about 60 years.

Since I was a child.

And I love dogs.

So get off your high horse.

Pit bulls are genetically programmed to kill. Nothing can change that fact. If triggered they are programmed to focus, finish the job......eliminate the opponent. They have the tools to do it.

Though most are nice dogs, especially those raised by good owners.......They ALL have the programming to some extent, and nobody can tell which of them will suddenly and without warning be triggered to kill something or someone.

Don't think a mixed breed is immune........a pit/Labrador mix may retain a huge amount of the killing instinct......no way to tell until it happens.

Bottom line.....no way to predict anything with a pit bull or pit bull mix.

So don't let your emotions rule your thinking on this........it's a decision to be made based on facts.

:2usflag:
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There may be "no way to predict them", but they're only responsible for 20 deaths/yr. There are millions of pits in America. They aren't out roaming the streets at night attacking and killing people. 20-ish deaths.

Bees/Wasps blah get more.
Cows kill about 20/year

So Cows and Pit Bulls...vicious killing machines.

I don't know, it doesn't seem to be the problem some want to make it out to be.
 
OlNate said:
Since you aren't willing to educate yourself with the entire study, I'll just skip to the important part:

"If, then, there is a genetic component to some aspects of behavior that have a clear impact on human–dog interaction, can bans targeting “bad dog” breeds such as pit bulls, or profiling based on genes in general, be justified by maintaining the position that behavior is a product of genetic tendencies as well? Evidence suggests that the answer is no."

And we're done.
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Far from done, I'm afraid.

You mention evidence......what evidence?

The clear and obvious evidence of pit bull behavior doesn't just "suggest," it proves that eliminating pit bulls would eliminate millions of tragic events. Read DOZENS of studies here.

Pit Bull Attacks - Victims of Dangerous Dog Attacks
 
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