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Same Old Story--Much Ado and Nothing Done.

VanceMack said:
I dont know what they feel the need to defend. Some legislation passes. Some legislation fails. Sometimes you do a bad job of putting together legisaltion> In this case...this legisaltion failed because the legislation was bad. BUT...there ARE two sides to this coin. One is the failure of the GOP to slam together legislation in 2 months. It was stupid of them to even try. It was stupid of them to write it without bringing members of the house and senate and healthcare industry and yes...even offering moderate dems a seat at the table while writing the legislation. The GOP screwed up on this...but again...legislation fails to pass all the time.

The flip side of the coin is the remaining existence of the piece of **** legislation known as Obamacare. You want to dance and celebrate the GOP loss as a 'win'...be my guest. But make no mistake...you will own that 'win'.
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I think your first paragraph here is spot on.
But I don't understand how you draw the conclusion that remedying the situation is the Democrats' responsibility.

The GOP are at the helm. They own their failure in governance as long as they remain the political party in power. And naturally... now that Trump is the de facto head of the GOP, the blame and the epic fail falls squarely on him.
 
RickJames3000 said:
I think your first paragraph here is spot on.
But I don't understand how you draw the conclusion that remedying the situation is the Democrats' responsibility.

The GOP are at the helm. They own their failure in governance as long as they remain the political party in power. And naturally... now that Trump is the de facto head of the GOP, the blame and the epic fail falls squarely on him.
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I think you miss the point. I never said remedying the situation is the democrats responsibility. I said it is something both parties should be working on together. What I DID say is the democrat party owns the ACA, and the ACA is a piece of **** that was built on lies sold to the public and is currently blowing up. Celebrating that is ridiculous.

maybe what I wish more than anything else is that our politicians started acting like leaders and not children. All of them.
 
Vox said:
Trump will now reach out to moderate Democrats.

He is now harboring a grudge toward the so-called "Freedom Caucus" and they will suffer consequences down the road. His memory is long when people cross him.

If Trump can hash out a bill that will use compromise with Democrats to craft a reasonable outcome, America will be the winner.

:2usflag:
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He did not criticize or attack the Freedom Caucus for their resistance on this bill. In fact he essentially referred to them as his friends.

Consider how many people are now in the Trump administration, at the invitation of the President, after they trashed him throughout the campaign. Look at how many times he has buried the hatchet with people who decided being friends with the President was better than being an enemy. This man can be counted on to hit back when he is attacked no matter who it is--he is not the least bit politically correct in that. But his track record shows that he absolutely is able to forgive and forget and does not carry grudges.

He is neither a partisan nor an ideologue. He will work with anybody willing to seriously work with him.
 
VanceMack said:
I think you miss the point. I never said remedying the situation is the democrats responsibility. I said it is something both parties should be working on together. What I DID say is the democrat party owns the ACA, and the ACA is a piece of **** that was built on lies sold to the public and is currently blowing up. Celebrating that is ridiculous.

maybe what I wish more than anything else is that our politicians started acting like leaders and not children. All of them.
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I have friends benefiting from ACA, so I wasn't in any hurry to see it eliminated without a viable replacement. Surely you can understand why people would celebrate the preservation of their own affordable healthcare?

Is it a perfect fix. No, it's not. Was it a good and much needed starting point for addressing the healthcare crisis in our society? Absolutely. Obama and the Democrats have been clear since the beginning that the ACA was not a finished product. Still, the Dems were the ones with the balls to take this issue on. And they were committed enough to work on it until they passed a piece of winning and enduring legislation.

Again... I agree with what you are saying regarding the necessity of our leaders working together toward a reasonable and efficient solution to the problem. But it shouldn't be too difficult to understand the reaction on the Left to the abject failure of the Trump/GOP AHCA.
 
Vox said:
No, "Gridlock" is when nothing gets done. As in this case. :2usflag:
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The GOP house has been in charge of "Gridlock" since coming to power in 2011, including the credit downgrade.

Until the GOP loses its 'Hastert Rule' from the 1990s, we'll remain in "Gridlock", where all 216 votes of 430 (currently 5 vacancies) have to come from the GOP.

The GOP house is actually more fractured now than ever, with the emergence of the moderate Tuesday group to go with the HFC.

Pressure from phone calls and town halls played a huge part in trumpcare going down, as GOPs wrote that book in 2010 .
 
RickJames3000 said:
I have friends benefiting from ACA, so I wasn't in any hurry to see it eliminated without a viable replacement. Surely you can understand why people would celebrate the preservation of their own affordable healthcare?

Is it a perfect fix. No, it's not. Was it a good and much needed starting point for addressing the healthcare crisis in our society? Absolutely. Obama and the Democrats have been clear since the beginning that the ACA was not a finished product. Still, the Dems were the ones with the balls to take this issue on. And they were committed enough to work on it until they passed a piece of winning and enduring legislation.

Again... I agree with what you are saying regarding the necessity of our leaders working together toward a reasonable and efficient solution to the problem. But it shouldn't be too difficult to understand the reaction on the Left to the abject failure of the Trump/GOP AHCA.
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What solutions do you see offered by democrats to fix their sacred cow?

Anecdotes are awesome and almost always have foundation in truth. For every positive ACA story there are at least equal numbers of negative ACA horror stories. The 'gains' seen have really not been substantial, the availability of providers has been dismal and the costs have become unsustainable. I truly believe that the democrats INTENDED for the ACA to fail and they fully expected to win the 2016 election. i believe without question that their intent was to come back in 2017 and blame the failures of the ACA on the existence of so many other networks and to offer the only 'real' solution...kill off the VA, medicare, medicaid, the ACA, and all government financial support to hospitals and pass universal healthcare. That was and has been their endgame all along. The ACA was just meant as the gateway drug.

I also agree that no replacement plan proposed by the GOP should leave those currently covered without options. I think the fixes for things like coverage of the poor and coverage for preexisting conditions were and remain easy solutions. But the GOP plan if they submit one again cant just leave people that have been covered under the ACA hanging.
 
VanceMack said:
What solutions do you see offered by democrats to fix their sacred cow?

Anecdotes are awesome and almost always have foundation in truth. For every positive ACA story there are at least equal numbers of negative ACA horror stories. The 'gains' seen have really not been substantial, the availability of providers has been dismal and the costs have become unsustainable. I truly believe that the democrats INTENDED for the ACA to fail and they fully expected to win the 2016 election. i believe without question that their intent was to come back in 2017 and blame the failures of the ACA on the existence of so many other networks and to offer the only 'real' solution...kill off the VA, medicare, medicaid, the ACA, and all government financial support to hospitals and pass universal healthcare. That was and has been their endgame all along. The ACA was just meant as the gateway drug.

I also agree that no replacement plan proposed by the GOP should leave those currently covered without options. I think the fixes for things like coverage of the poor and coverage for preexisting conditions were and remain easy solutions. But the GOP plan if they submit one again cant just leave people that have been covered under the ACA hanging.
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Your argument relies on the premise that ACA has been, and will continue to be, a "failure". I don't agree.
Read the following and tell me why you hold that position:

Republicans call Obamacare a 'failure.' These 7 charts show they couldn't be more wrong - LA Times
 
RickJames3000 said:
Your argument relies on the premise that ACA has been, and will continue to be, a "failure". I don't agree.
Read the following and tell me why you hold that position:

Republicans call Obamacare a 'failure.' These 7 charts show they couldn't be more wrong - LA Times
Click to expand...
Cherry picking statistical categories you like while ignoring categories that make your position look bad isnt effective evidence of anything. For example...where 'coverage' has gone up it has only gone up for 2 reasons. 1-Its mandated by force of penalty and law, and 2-more low income people are being placed on medicare/medicaid. 2014 Health Insurance Enrollment: Increase Due Almost Entirely to Medicaid Expansion | The Heritage Foundation

Thats not a solution to a problem...thats kicking the can down the road. It results in increased costs and not increased service or benefit. And frankly...its a solution I suggested (along with those with previously uninsured with preexisting conditions but at a higher premium based on income) I have talked about long before even the passage of the ACA.
 
Greenbeard said:
No one, because they actually got things done.
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Did they? Then why does essentially EVERYBODY with any knowledge of Obamacare say that it is failing catastrophically in doing what they said it would do for us? Why are so many insurance companies now bailing out on it once we stopped paying them for participating? Even AARP, one of its strongest supporters back then, has pulled their own insurance company out of Obamacare because it has been so disastrous for them.

Getting something really stupid or bad done that most people didn't want and still don't want is not what I call success.

And how many times have those on the Left, including yourself, blamed the Republicans when the Democrats sat on their hands and did nothing? They have had nine years to fix the problems with Obamacare and have done nothing. They didn't even pass a budget for several years which they would have been screaming bloody murder if the Republicans had done the same.
 
AlbqOwl said:
Did they? Then why does essentially EVERYBODY with any knowledge of Obamacare say that it is failing catastrophically in doing what they said it would do for us?
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GOP politicians are not "EVERYBODY with any knowledge of Obamacare." Quite the opposite, actually.

But yes, I can see how dire they think the situation is. They spent two weeks on health care and then decided to move on to something more pressing. Catastrophe!
 
Greenbeard said:
GOP politicians are not "EVERYBODY with any knowledge of Obamacare." Quite the opposite, actually.

But yes, I can see how dire they think the situation is. They spent two weeks on health care and then decided to move on to something more pressing. Catastrophe!
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And another point made went sailing right over another head. :)
 
Vox said:
I've seen this movie before.

Our House and Senate WON!!!

They did nothing and both sides are claiming victory.

Dems say they saved Obamacare and the Repubs say now the Dems must take the blame when it all falls apart in a catastrophic meltdown.

And, they're correct. When they do nothing--they win.

Doing nothing preserves the status quo--the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

The Jackboot of Oligarchy remains firmly on the throat of America.

There was a lot of drama and the Media presented it as a battle royale........but doing nothing was the goal and the goal was achieved.

The Oligarchy is laughing at Trump.

Long live the Oligarchy.

:hm:hm:hm
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What happened yesterday was the Republicans woke up to find out that governing is hard, especially when half your party seems to be stuck on saying, "No."
 
AlbqOwl said:
And another point made went sailing right over another head. :)
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The doom-and-gloom rhetoric made sense strategically when you guys were pretending something needed to be done and you were going to do it.

That pretense is over. You can drop the talking points now.
 
AlbqOwl said:
He did not criticize or attack the Freedom Caucus for their resistance on this bill. In fact he essentially referred to them as his friends.

Consider how many people are now in the Trump administration, at the invitation of the President, after they trashed him throughout the campaign. Look at how many times he has buried the hatchet with people who decided being friends with the President was better than being an enemy. This man can be counted on to hit back when he is attacked no matter who it is--he is not the least bit politically correct in that. But his track record shows that he absolutely is able to forgive and forget and does not carry grudges.

He is neither a partisan nor an ideologue. He will work with anybody willing to seriously work with him.
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And he knows the Freedom Caucus is not going to work with him.
 
AlbqOwl said:
He did not criticize or attack the Freedom Caucus for their resistance on this bill. In fact he essentially referred to them as his friends.

Consider how many people are now in the Trump administration, at the invitation of the President, after they trashed him throughout the campaign. Look at how many times he has buried the hatchet with people who decided being friends with the President was better than being an enemy. This man can be counted on to hit back when he is attacked no matter who it is--he is not the least bit politically correct in that. But his track record shows that he absolutely is able to forgive and forget and does not carry grudges.

He is neither a partisan nor an ideologue. He will work with anybody willing to seriously work with him.
Click to expand...

He's a lame duck who's party controls both houses. Quite an accomplishment.
 
calamity said:
What happened yesterday was the Republicans woke up to find out that governing is hard, especially when half your party seems to be stuck on saying, "No."
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It's a lot more complicated than that.

:2usflag:
 
Vox said:
Trump will now reach out to moderate Democrats.

He is now harboring a grudge toward the so-called "Freedom Caucus" and they will suffer consequences down the road. His memory is long when people cross him.

If Trump can hash out a bill that will use compromise with Democrats to craft a reasonable outcome, America will be the winner.

:2usflag:
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That will be interesting considering the abuse he's heaped on them.

If anything comes out of this it is the fact Trump and co. have no idea what they're doing. They've had eight years to gauge public opinion, meet with the insurance industry and obtain input from independent health economists.

Instead they try to cobble together a piece meal solution and ram it through in an afternoon.

That speaks wonders for Trump's "greatest 100 days in history" as well as the real intent of the Republican party. All through the Obamacare debate they whined that the Democrats wouldn't table their "alternatives".

I wonder if they had even one.
 
1750Texan said:
Let's be clear. There was no bill. There were a bunch of proposals that was not even crafted into a coherent document.

There was no vote because there is no bill.

If anyone has a link to a copy of the document up for vote...please post the link.
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Let's not be too hard on the Republicans. They only had SEVEN years to write a decent piece of health care legislation.....lmao
 
Vox said:
Trump almost beat them on this Health Care issue.......and he may yet eventually beat them with help from Democrats in crafting the new system.

:2usflag:
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Trump didn't almost beat them on anything. All he was interested in was getting a bad bill passed, and being able to say the he kept another campaign promise. The bill itself even contradicted his own campaign pledges on health care, yet he supported it anyway.

Now, it yet another sign of Trump's incompetence, he decided to continue to blame Pelosi and Schumer instead of the Freedom Caucus that actually sunk the bill. Trump has yet to figure out that he just might need these two somewhere down the road.
 
VanceMack said:
Cherry picking statistical categories you like while ignoring categories that make your position look bad isnt effective evidence of anything. For example...where 'coverage' has gone up it has only gone up for 2 reasons. 1-Its mandated by force of penalty and law, and 2-more low income people are being placed on medicare/medicaid. 2014 Health Insurance Enrollment: Increase Due Almost Entirely to Medicaid Expansion | The Heritage Foundation

Thats not a solution to a problem...thats kicking the can down the road. It results in increased costs and not increased service or benefit. And frankly...its a solution I suggested (along with those with previously uninsured with preexisting conditions but at a higher premium based on income) I have talked about long before even the passage of the ACA.
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The entire point is to expand coverage to non-insured persons. That was the goal. And contrary to you claims, Figures 32, 34, and 44 show how the ACA have reduced the amounts people and employers spend on healthcare, and how much society spends as a percentage of GDP.

You are welcome to present your own "cherry-picked" data to dispute these findings.
 
Vetplus40 said:
Trump didn't almost beat them on anything. All he was interested in was getting a bad bill passed, and being able to say the he kept another campaign promise. The bill itself even contradicted his own campaign pledges on health care, yet he supported it anyway.

Now, it yet another sign of Trump's incompetence, he decided to continue to blame Pelosi and Schumer instead of the Freedom Caucus that actually sunk the bill. Trump has yet to figure out that he just might need these two somewhere down the road.
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You don't understand what Trump was trying to do.

He hoped to get a bad bill out of the House and then have it improved in the Senate and finally fixed by conference committees so that it would be good enough to sign once it got to his desk.

The bill in the House was not Trump's bill.....it was a very harsh and conservative bill (although still too compassionate for some of the really mean bastards in the House).

Trump hoped to get a good bill after a long struggle......getting it out of the House in SOME form was just a first step.....not a last step.

:2usflag:
 
RickJames3000 said:
The entire point is to expand coverage to non-insured persons. That was the goal. And contrary to you claims, Figures 32, 34, and 44 show how the ACA have reduced the amounts people and employers spend on healthcare, and how much society spends as a percentage of GDP.

You are welcome to present your own "cherry-picked" data to dispute these findings.
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I already disputed the very first premise...that there was some sort of victory because more people are 'insured'. No...more people are on government assistance. Hell...we just had 8 years of honing the art of putting more people on government assistance. That wasnt a 'success'.
 
VanceMack said:
I already disputed the very first premise...that there was some sort of victory because more people are 'insured'. No...more people are on government assistance. Hell...we just had 8 years of honing the art of putting more people on government assistance. That wasnt a 'success'.
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You didn't "dispute" any premise. YOU expressed your opinion that the government shouldn't assist people in getting health insurance. WE have a fundamental disagreement on that issue.
 
Vox said:
And he knows the Freedom Caucus is not going to work with him.
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I don't see it that way at all. He has been very careful not to burn any bridges there. I think he understands exactly why they opposed this bill and will take that into consideration on the next try. It was mostly us Freedom Caucus types who elected him after all. He's no dummy. He knows that.
 
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