Same Old Story--Much Ado and Nothing Done.

Grand Mal said:

He's a lame duck who's party controls both houses. Quite an accomplishment.

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Yes, I've been seeing that phrase quite a bit the last couple of days. That's the issued talking point for the week is it?

AlbqOwl said:

I don't see it that way at all. He has been very careful not to burn any bridges there. I think he understands exactly why they opposed this bill and will take that into consideration on the next try. It was mostly us Freedom Caucus types who elected him after all. He's no dummy. He knows that.

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I don't anticipate any alternative to ACA that is acceptable to the Freedom Caucus passing.The Tuesday group will stand with Democrats to oppose any such proposal.
All the Freedom Caucus can do is obstruct... they have neither the desire nor ability to legislate effectively.

RickJames3000 said:

I don't anticipate any alternative to ACA that is acceptable to the Freedom Caucus passing.The Tuesday group will stand with Democrats to oppose any such proposal.
All the Freedom Caucus can do is obstruct... they have neither the desire nor ability to legislate effectively.

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The Freedom Caucus represents most of us who voted for Trump in the first place. I think you have no idea of what their motives or desires are.

AlbqOwl said:

I don't see it that way at all. He has been very careful not to burn any bridges there. I think he understands exactly why they opposed this bill and will take that into consideration on the next try. It was mostly us Freedom Caucus types who elected him after all. He's no dummy. He knows that.

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Trump said he didn't know or understand how stubborn the Freedom Caucus was and how hard they made it for Boehner and Ryan. But he sure knows now...so don't be surprised if he bypasses them and tries to negotiate with democrats to get his bills passed, instead.

AlbqOwl said:

The Freedom Caucus represents most of us who voted for Trump in the first place. I think you have no idea of what their motives or desires are.

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Their idea of healthcare bill certainly showed their true colors and it wasn't pretty.

Moot said:

Trump said he didn't know or understand how stubborn the Freedom Caucus was and how hard they made it for Boehner and Ryan. But he sure knows now...so don't be surprised if he bypasses them and tries to negotiate with democrats to get his bills passed, instead.

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If he goes with the Democrats' agenda, he's done. He will have caved in on every campaign promise and turned into just another cog in the permanent political class. They'll still turn on him and make his life as miserable as they can because that is what they do. And his base won't support him at all if he does that.

Moot said:

Their idea of healthcare bill certainly showed their true colors and it wasn't pretty.

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It showed their true colors to return the power to the people. It was just too hastily crafted and too poorly sold.

AlbqOwl said:

Yes, I've been seeing that phrase quite a bit the last couple of days. That's the issued talking point for the week is it?

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That talking point does not go away. If Trump moves to Tax reform, the same dynamic is at play. Who are his allies? Who does he turn to?

If Tax reform fails, then what? What possibility any legislation passes?

That is the definition of a lame duck...a President that has no political clout with the members to pass further legislation.

AlbqOwl said:

If he goes with the Democrats' agenda, he's done. He will have caved in on every campaign promise and turned into just another cog in the permanent political class. They'll still turn on him and make his life as miserable as they can because that is what they do. And his base won't support him at all if he does that.

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What about his promise that everybody would have good, affordable health insurance?

His only hope is to go to the Democrats and also pick up moderate Republican support......after the protests about repealing Obamacare at the town halls.......looks like a coalition could be formed.

His base? To hell with them. He's done with them. He won't get reelected anyway, so they're history.

The only way he COULD get reelected is to work with Democrats.

It's up to the Democrats now.......they have the power to fix health care in cooperation with Trump.

What will they do?

:2usflag:

1750Texan said:

That talking point does not go away. If Trump moves to Tax reform, the same dynamic is at play. Who are his allies? Who does he turn to?

If Tax reform fails, then what? What possibility any legislation passes?

That is the definition of a lame duck...a President that has no political clout with the members to pass further legislation.

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Trump is not one to accept failure as the final outcome. Like all people who set out to actually accomplish something--something neither the most of the Democrats or Republicans are interested in doing--there is always a factor of trial and error involved. So you try something, and if it doesn't work then you go to Plan B or C or D or beyond until something does. There is often two steps back now and then but always moving forward eventually.

People enamored with the political class or those who are used to thinking as the political class and their stooges/lackies etc. don't see, understand, or appreciate that process. And those who want the President to fail were poised to pounce on anything that didn't get accomplished on the first try. Had this been the Obama Administration, the same people would have shrugged and blamed the Republicans and moved on. But those determined to prevent President Trump from accomplishing anything of his agenda will blame him.

That's the way it is.

AlbqOwl said:

Trump is not one to accept failure as the final outcome. Like all people who set out to actually accomplish something--something neither the most of the Democrats or Republicans are interested in doing--there is always a factor of trial and error involved. So you try something, and if it doesn't work then you go to Plan B or C or D or beyond until something does. There is often two steps back now and then but always moving forward eventually.

People enamored with the political class or those who are used to thinking as the political class and their stooges/lackies etc. don't see, understand, or appreciate that process. And those who want the President to fail were poised to pounce on anything that didn't get accomplished on the first try. Had this been the Obama Administration, the same people would have shrugged and blamed the Republicans and moved on. But those determined to prevent President Trump from accomplishing anything of his agenda will blame him.

That's the way it is.

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But it wasn't the Obama Adminstration. He passed his legislation. Why? ...because he knew the process and He had a working plan that his House and Senate were on board.

I don't care how many times Trump attempts to pass legislation, he is still working with the same political dynamic.

Ive Been listening to the GOP since 1986 say..."The Next Election is the most critical". Guess what? There are no more elections.

This is a referendum on whether the GOP can govern...Plain and simple.

Vox said:

What about his promise that everybody would have good, affordable health insurance?

His only hope is to go to the Democrats and also pick up moderate Republican support......after the protests about repealing Obamacare at the town halls.......looks like a coalition could be formed.

His base? To hell with them. He's done with them. He won't get reelected anyway, so they're history.

The only way he COULD get reelected is to work with Democrats.

It's up to the Democrats now.......they have the power to fix health care in cooperation with Trump.

What will they do?

:2usflag:

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Just passing something to say you passed something is what the Permanent Political Class does. They don't care if it doesn't fix anything or accomplish anything or is loaded with unintended bad consequences now or on down the road.

That is what Obamacare was. A massive government program that pretended to provide something that never happened, but the Permanent Political Class didn't care. It did what THEY wanted which was to give the federal government more and more power over our respective lives and more ability to increase their own power, prestige, influence, and personal wealth.

Those who opposed the bill defeated on Thursday were those few in Congress who weren't willing to settle for that. They wanted a bill that would actually accomplish improvement in and affordability of healthcare. And they want a bill that can be demonstrated to the people that this is a good thing and get the people behind it. The defeated bill could neither be sold as a good thing and, though it did accomplish some good things, did almost nothing to dismantle the worst of Obamacare.

As for Trump not getting re-elected,

They said he would never run. He did.
They said he would drop out and never complete the process. He didn't drop out.
They said he could never be nominated. He was.
They said he could never be elected--odds makers gave him a 12% chance on election day. He was elected.

I sure wouldn't want to gamble that he won't be re-elected come 2020.

AlbqOwl said:

Those who opposed the bill defeated on Thursday were those few in Congress who weren't willing to settle for that. They wanted a bill that would actually accomplish improvement in and affordability of healthcare. And they want a bill that can be demonstrated to the people that this is a good thing and get the people behind it.

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Those who actually DEFEATED it wanted to destroy health care......they were called Freedom Caucus. They are now Trump's enemies.

So, back to my question. What will Democrats do? Work with Trump to fix health care or continue to play politics in the hope of defeating Trump?

:2usflag:

AlbqOwl said:

Just passing something to say you passed something is what the Permanent Political Class does. They don't care if it doesn't fix anything or accomplish anything or is loaded with unintended bad consequences now or on down the road.

That is what Obamacare was. A massive government program that pretended to provide something that never happened, but the Permanent Political Class didn't care. It did what THEY wanted which was to give the federal government more and more power over our respective lives and more ability to increase their own power, prestige, influence, and personal wealth.

Those who opposed the bill defeated on Thursday were those few in Congress who weren't willing to settle for that. They wanted a bill that would actually accomplish improvement in and affordability of healthcare. And they want a bill that can be demonstrated to the people that this is a good thing and get the people behind it. The defeated bill could neither be sold as a good thing and, though it did accomplish some good things, did almost nothing to dismantle the worst of Obamacare.

As for Trump not getting re-elected,

They said he would never run. He did.
They said he would drop out and never complete the process. He didn't drop out.
They said he could never be nominated. He was.
They said he could never be elected--odds makers gave him a 12% chance on election day. He was elected.

I sure wouldn't want to gamble that he won't be re-elected come 2020.

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What you do not understand about Obamacare or any other large legislation is that it is not a one time deal.

Problems arise in all legislation. You are incorrect in believing that the "Political Class" just passes legislation to pass it.

What the Political class does is pass legislation, then let it die on the vine by not funding the program. It makes for good headlines back home...then it does not get funded and it dies a quiet death with little fan fare or news coverage.

True legislation gets funded and fixed in every session of Congress because it impact to need.Social Security and Medicare.

If repeal with no replace were viable, it would have passed.

1750Texan said:

But it wasn't the Obama Adminstration. He passed his legislation. Why? ...because he knew the process and He had a working plan that his House and Senate were on board.

I don't care how many times Trump attempts to pass legislation, he is still working with the same political dynamic.

Ive Been listening to the GOP since 1986 say..."The Next Election is the most critical". Guess what? There are no more elections.

This is a referendum on whether the GOP can govern...Plain and simple.

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Obama had a super majority of Democrats in the House and Senate when Obamacare passed, all 381,500+ words ot it--about half the number of words in the entire King James Bible. Nobody had even read it and they didn't care what ramifications were at play. They just wanted to bask in the initial glory of passing it. So they passed it without a single Republican vote. 34 Democrats in the House also voted against it so it passed by a narrow 5 vote margin in the House. And the nation was stuck with the most horrendous and destructive piece of legislation ever passed by any Congress.

The Republicans didn't have the margin to pass their bill without the blessings of the Freedom caucus, however. The Freedom Caucus wants real reform and not a cobbled together patchwork that even those who voted for it had tepid enthusiasm for it. And they had the courage of their convictions to refuse something so inadequate to accomplish real healthcare reform.

The President was more willing to compromise on the theory this would have been Phase 1 followed by more reform until they got it done. The bill did do some really good things.

Meanwhile, since passage, the Obama Administration has added 10,535 pages of Obamacare regulations to the Federal Register, an estimated 11,588,500 words. That's more words than all the words in the Old plus New Testaments of 15 King James Bibles. And the Democrats still own it as the GOP was unsuccessful in their first attempt to dismantle it.

So who will get the blame when it finally collapses under its own weight? Will the Democrats who forced it down our throats be blamed? Or will the Republicans who had the chance to repeal it and didn't be blamed?

AlbqOwl said:

And the nation was stuck with the most horrendous and destructive piece of legislation ever passed by any Congress.

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And yet the GOP Congress spent two weeks on this issue and decided they were okay leaving it untouched and moving on to other issues. Hmm!

Vox said:

Those who actually DEFEATED it wanted to destroy health care......they were called Freedom Caucus. They are now Trump's enemies.

So, back to my question. What will Democrats do? Work with Trump to fix health care or continue to play politics in the hope of defeating Trump?

:2usflag:

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They are not Trump's enemies at all. And their vote was absolutely not to destroy healthcare. They want us to have good healthcare again instead of a failing system that is collapsing under its own weight of ill conceived rules, regulations, and mandates.

I applaud them for voting their convictions though I was philosophically willing to compromise and go with the President's Plan B to replace Obamacare in phases.

The Democrats have never given a damn about whether Obamacare worked as advertised or they would have spent the last seven years fixing what is wrong with it.

Greenbeard said:

And yet the GOP Congress spent two weeks on this issue and decided they were okay leaving it untouched and moving on to other issues. Hmm!

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They tried and fell short about about 5 or 6 votes in the House. Which ironically is the same number of votes the Democrats passed Obamacare with despite having a super majority in the House.

They won't give up but for now they'll give it more time which they should have done in the first place.

AlbqOwl said:

They tried and fell short about about 5 or 6 votes in the House. Which ironically is the same number of votes the Democrats passed Obamacare with despite having a super majority in the House.

They won't give up but for now they'll give it more time which they should have done in the first place.

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More time? Seven years after passage of "most horrendous and destructive piece of legislation ever passed by any Congress" and they need more time to develop an alternative? This sounds like a real emergency.

1750Texan said:

What you do not understand about Obamacare or any other large legislation is that it is not a one time deal.

Problems arise in all legislation. You are incorrect in believing that the "Political Class" just passes legislation to pass it.

What the Political class does is pass legislation, then let it die on the vine by not funding the program. It makes for good headlines back home...then it does not get funded and it dies a quiet death with little fan fare or news coverage.

True legislation gets funded and fixed in every session of Congress because it impact to need.Social Security and Medicare.

If repeal with no replace were viable, it would have passed.

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So why didn't the Democrats start working on the problems when they first came up when the Dems still had a majority in the House and Senate? They didn't did they. Once they passed it with a very narrow margin in the House without a single GOP vote, they washed their hands of the whole thing, didn't give a flying fig about whether it would work as advertised or not, and turned it over to the bureaucracy to manage.

To the original 381,500+ word bill--roughly half the words in a King James Bible--that nobody had read when they voted, the bureaucracy has since added 10,535 pages or roughly 12,588,500 words of rules and regulations and mandates to the federal registry. How many people do healthcare providers have to hire and pay just to try to figure out a small fraction of all of that? And who has the resources to understand and comply with all that. And does anybody realistically believe that all of that is necessary to provide healthcare?

And it is reasonable that the states, employers, the healthcare industry, insurance companies, and suppliers would be unable to immediately comply with a whole new system should Obamacare be repealed and a new system put in place in a single piece of legislation. Complete chaos would result.

It is obvious to all but the deliberately blind that Obamacare is collapsing under its own weight.

And who will get the blame?

The Democrats who forced this monstrosity on us?

Or the Republicans who chose not to repeal it because of the chaos that almost certainly would result?

Vox said:

You do realize that there were two groups of GOP'ers who opposed it for reasons that were exactly opposite?

You do realize that this was all part of the "Do Nothing" plan?

:2usflag:

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While I agree with your first sentence, I think the idea that they all share a "do nothing" plan is incorrect.

I believe that, as fractured as the Dems are, the Repubs have the same problem. The tea party types and their 'drown the fedgov in the bathtub' billionaire sponsors wanted to basically cut any government assistance from healthcare. There is another group that recognizes the backlash that would cause and cares about it or, just possibly, cares about its constituents. The tea party vs. 'other' war that ended Boehner's career might just end Ryan's. Can't herd those cats, I guess.

They aren't "doing nothing". They are taking our money and screwing us.

AlbqOwl said:

...
Blaming the Koch Bros. or other outside factors is just silly. The Koch Bros. did not make any threats, though conservative organizations, many who receive contributions from the Koch Bros. did make known that they expect real healthcare reform and not a symbolic one and would not look favorably upon lawmakers who weren't serious about getting it done.

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I like this bit at the end where you, out of nowhere, try to tell people that money doesn't influence politics.

Greenbeard said:

More time? Seven years after passage of "most horrendous and destructive piece of legislation ever passed by any Congress" and they need more time to develop an alternative? This sounds like a real emergency.

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They had alternatives. Lots of them. They just had not reached an agreement on which to support, and with a Senate unwilling to bring any debate on the issue to the floor and a President who vowed to veto anything they offered, there wasn't much incentive to spend a lot of time on it.

The Democrats had all this time to pass a really good healthcare reform bill too, and have had the same seven years to repair or amend the worst things in the monstrosity they passed. But here we are with the worst still in place and it is collapsing under it's own weight.

Whose fault is that really?

Porkuloss said:

While I agree with your first sentence, I think the idea that they all share a "do nothing" plan is incorrect.

I believe that, as fractured as the Dems are, the Repubs have the same problem. The tea party types and their 'drown the fedgov in the bathtub' billionaire sponsors wanted to basically cut any government assistance from healthcare. There is another group that recognizes the backlash that would cause and cares about it or, just possibly, cares about its constituents. The tea party vs. 'other' war that ended Boehner's career might just end Ryan's. Can't herd those cats, I guess.

They aren't "doing nothing". They are taking our money and screwing us.

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Taking our money and screwing us by doing nothing.........cause consistently NOT passing any bills is, for a legislature, doing nothing.

:2usflag:

Absentglare said:

I like this bit at the end where you, out of nowhere, try to tell people that money doesn't influence politics.

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And I deplore those who read into other people's posts things that were never said and thus create a silly strawman. It adds an unnecessary toxic element to the discussion that makes it much less satisfying to people who really enjoy discussing a topic.

I suspect some of you are paid to do exactly that though.