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Geez. Trump has really lost it now.....:(

ocean515 said:
Obamacare is the law of the land, regardless of where you view it from. Leaving it to fail, as the Democrats have done, reveals who actually cares about the people.

Healthcare in the US will only be "Trumpcare" when they figure out the best way to clean the up the mess Republicans were left with, and pass legislation to do it.

Anything other than that is pure fantasy.
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Leaving it to fail proves that The Republicans don't care.
 
rocket88 said:
Well regardless of who created it, Republicans are in charge now, so fixing it is their problem. You won, get over it.
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No, Obamacare is not their problem, it's the Democrats problem. They created, you get to eat it.
 
ocean515 said:
Obamacare is the law of the land, regardless of where you view it from. Leaving it to fail, as the Democrats have done, reveals who actually cares about the people.

Healthcare in the US will only be "Trumpcare" when they figure out the best way to clean the up the mess Republicans were left with, and pass legislation to do it.

Anything other than that is pure fantasy.
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It's refreshing to see you acknowledge that the GOP has no answers, and that they are therefore incapable of legislating.
When you put all of your energy into ensuring the failure of government, this is all you are capable of when you are in the catbird seat.
 
RickJames3000 said:
It's refreshing to see you acknowledge that the GOP has no answers, and that they are therefore incapable of legislating.
When you put all of your energy into ensuring the failure of government, this is all you are capable of when you are in the catbird seat.
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:shock:

Well, it's refreshing to see you confirm the high levels of delusion many on the left appear burdened with.

There is nothing in my post that could possibly infer what you claimed.

It might have been better for you to just have splayed your stuff in a stand alone post.
 
RickJames3000 said:
It's refreshing to see you acknowledge that the GOP has no answers, and that they are therefore incapable of legislating.
When you put all of your energy into ensuring the failure of government, this is all you are capable of when you are in the catbird seat.
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The "Rights" chosen candidate is a colossal failure, and it's the "Lefts" fault......................)
 
ocean515 said:
Boo Hoo. Creating Obamacare and leaving it to fail proves the Democrats never did care.
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And leaving it in place proves what about the Republicans? Here is a law that, according to them, is the worst legislation ever, and presented with a chance to do away with it, they didn't.
 
rocket88 said:
So Republicans have no responsibility to the voters?
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Republican Party Responsibilities : Large corporations, billionaires, the military industrial complex, the religious right. What are "voters"?
 
rocket88 said:
And leaving it in place proves what about the Republicans? Here is a law that, according to them, is the worst legislation ever, and presented with a chance to do away with it, they didn't.
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Not yet. But using your logic, here is a system the Democrats said was going to be the best thing - in fact it's still considered the crowning achievement of the Obama Era. Not replacing it should be a wonderful thing for them.

Yet, when Republicans failed to reach consensus on fixing Obamacare, liberal/socialist progressives started screaming that Republicans don't care about healthcare for US Citizens.

It's really a ridiculous argument to make, and certainly makes them look completely pathetic.
 
ocean515 said:
Yet, when Republicans failed to reach consensus on fixing Obamacare, liberal/socialist progressives started screaming that Republicans don't care about healthcare for US Citizens.
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I don't recall hearing this. The screaming (if such there was) had to do with Trump saying that Obamacare was going to collapse, leaving millions of people with no insurance, and he was just going to let it. To think that indicates Trump doesn't care about healthcare for US Citizens, you do not also need to think that Obamacare is actually going to collapse.

If Trump actually did care, and actually does believe Obamacare is bad, he wouldn't walk away so quickly. His behavior is inconsistent with both of those attitudes.

ocean515 said:
It's really a ridiculous argument to make, and certainly makes them look completely pathetic.
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You don't understand the point.
 
ashurbanipal said:
I don't recall hearing this. The screaming (if such there was) had to do with Trump saying that Obamacare was going to collapse, leaving millions of people with no insurance, and he was just going to let it. To think that indicates Trump doesn't care about healthcare for US Citizens, you do not also need to think that Obamacare is actually going to collapse.

If Trump actually did care, and actually does believe Obamacare is bad, he wouldn't walk away so quickly. His behavior is inconsistent with both of those attitudes.



You don't understand the point.
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I would argue you don't understand the point. Obamacare was created unilaterally by Democrats. It was, and has been, the signature legislation of the Obama Administration and the Congress that passed it. It has been hailed by the left since it's inception.

If Obamacare is the great thing the Dems have claimed it is, why would it need changing? If it's going to collapse, where are those who created it?

When the House failed to get enough votes to pass legislation to improve the system, why have Dems been screaming about it? I guess complaining is the one skill they are learning to perfect. Governing seems to be less of a priority.
 
code1211 said:
I have employer healthcare and the deductible has increased to $3000.00/year. Individual policy.

What was a good plan has devolved into a an unusable waste of cash unless I get a debilitating illness.

I'm old so that is not out of the question, so, there's that...
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my employer paid plan total out of pocket per year has gone wayyy up to 4500... it really stinks. one thing I have never been sure on though and have a question about... so the ACA is driving down the quality of these plans? what mechanism in it is causing that?
 
ocean515 said:
I would argue you don't understand the point.
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OK. Let's find out.

ocean515 said:
Obamacare was created unilaterally by Democrats.
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Well, as I recall, there were attempts to get Republicans to share their ideas, but the only idea they had was "whatever you dems don't want, that's what we want."

ocean515 said:
It was, and has been, the signature legislation of the Obama Administration and the Congress that passed it. It has been hailed by the left since it's inception.
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Many on the left don't think it goes far enough, but for the purpose of this conversation, I'll agree with you.

ocean515 said:
If Obamacare is the great thing the Dems have claimed it is, why would it need changing?
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Who says it does? Seems to me it's Republicans who think it needs changing. Democrats aren't interested in changing it, except perhaps to make it more left (federal public option or even single payer).

ocean515 said:
If it's going to collapse, where are those who created it?
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I don't know. Who says it's going to collapse? Trump has said that (IIRC, that was his precice wording). I can't think of a Dem who has said that.

ocean515 said:
When the House failed to get enough votes to pass legislation to improve the system, why have Dems been screaming about it?
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They haven't been. The Dems have:

1. "Screamed" (if that's the right word) that a President or Congressperson who believes the current system will collapse, leaving tens of millions uninsured, and who then says "either pass this bill or we will just let it blow up and screw a bunch of hard working Americans" is saying that to prove a political point, and obviously doesn't actually care about those very Americans who will be screwed. In other words, one cannot consistently a) believe the current system will collapse, b) believe we should do nothing about it, and c) maintain that one cares about the people who will be affected by the collapse. Since Trump and other Republicans have stated a) and b), they cannot also claim c).

2. Pointing out (rather less loudly than they should be, frankly), after the bill was withdrawn, that this is a MASSIVE fail for Republicans. And everyone knows it. The Republicans have had 7 years to craft a replacement. Trump ran on telling his voters that repealing Obamacare and replacing it with something yuge and fantastical was a top priority. After, what?--nine weeks or so of negotiating?--they just walk away, whining "it's so complicated! Who knew it would be this complicated?"

No screaming from the dems, in other words, that Obamacare is about to collapse, or that it wasn't repealed. Dems are perfectly happy with this outcome, generally speaking--the only caveat being that probably most would rather see it go even farther left. It relies too much on market principles for something that shouldn't be left up to markets.

Now that you've read all that, for God's sake, read it again so I don't end up repeating myself.
 
ashurbanipal said:
OK. Let's find out.



Well, as I recall, there were attempts to get Republicans to share their ideas, but the only idea they had was "whatever you dems don't want, that's what we want."



Many on the left don't think it goes far enough, but for the purpose of this conversation, I'll agree with you.



Who says it does? Seems to me it's Republicans who think it needs changing. Democrats aren't interested in changing it, except perhaps to make it more left (federal public option or even single payer).



I don't know. Who says it's going to collapse? Trump has said that (IIRC, that was his precice wording). I can't think of a Dem who has said that.



They haven't been. The Dems have:

1. "Screamed" (if that's the right word) that a President or Congressperson who believes the current system will collapse, leaving tens of millions uninsured, and who then says "either pass this bill or we will just let it blow up and screw a bunch of hard working Americans" is saying that to prove a political point, and obviously doesn't actually care about those very Americans who will be screwed. In other words, one cannot consistently a) believe the current system will collapse, b) believe we should do nothing about it, and c) maintain that one cares about the people who will be affected by the collapse. Since Trump and other Republicans have stated a) and b), they cannot also claim c).

2. Pointing out (rather less loudly than they should be, frankly), after the bill was withdrawn, that this is a MASSIVE fail for Republicans. And everyone knows it. The Republicans have had 7 years to craft a replacement. Trump ran on telling his voters that repealing Obamacare and replacing it with something yuge and fantastical was a top priority. After, what?--nine weeks or so of negotiating?--they just walk away, whining "it's so complicated! Who knew it would be this complicated?"

No screaming from the dems, in other words, that Obamacare is about to collapse, or that it wasn't repealed. Dems are perfectly happy with this outcome, generally speaking--the only caveat being that probably most would rather see it go even farther left. It relies too much on market principles for something that shouldn't be left up to markets.

Now that you've read all that, for God's sake, read it again so I don't end up repeating myself.
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Do you really think we are going to reach any kind of common ground here? You've made a very partisan and subjective post here.

I think I'll just leave it at that and conclude we view the issue from totally different positions and nothing will change either of us.
 
ocean515 said:
Do you really think we are going to reach any kind of common ground here?
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Well, I had hoped so. It seems as though there is a reality, which means there's a truth to the matter. If that's correct, then the methods of reason ought to be able to tell us what the truth is. I'm a reasonable fellow. If you can make a reasonable argument, I'll be convinced by it.

The problem I see so far is that nothing you've said is factual. Or so it seems to me. I had hoped you might be able to point to an interview with, say, several democratic congresspersons who think we've got to repeal Obamacare and because we've got to replace it with something else, it's horrible that the Republicans didn't bring their bill to a vote. That would certainly bolster your case substantially. However, I haven't seen any such news, and I'm pretty sure if there were such interviews out there, someone probably would have told me about them.

ocean515 said:
You've made a very partisan and subjective post here.
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Specifically--specifically--why do you say that?

ocean515 said:
I think I'll just leave it at that and conclude we view the issue from totally different positions and nothing will change either of us.
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It could for me, if you make a sound argument.
 
Porkuloss said:
Republican Party Responsibilities : Large corporations, billionaires, the military industrial complex, the religious right. What are "voters"?
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Those are the people who are bullied into silence, they tend to vote for politicians who "bought" their votes by actually representing their interests.
 
Hypothetical said:
my employer paid plan total out of pocket per year has gone wayyy up to 4500... it really stinks. one thing I have never been sure on though and have a question about... so the ACA is driving down the quality of these plans? what mechanism in it is causing that?
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I'm very confused about the actual costs of this thing.

There is talk that the government share of the ACA is about a Trillion dollars. Some say that's understated.

Then there is the talk that the growth curve has been bent downward. Of course, that's usually stated as a percent. If the dollar increase is exactly the same year to year, the percent goes down. If the percent stays the same, the dollar increase has increased.

No matter who is making the statement, the statement is politicized. It is not easy for a guy like me to figure out the truth.

The only thing I can judge is what is happening to me based on the actual data that I can actual see and hold.

For me, the cost is increasing and the coverage seems to be decreasing. In most applications of coverage, though, I don't know what that coverage is until I try use the insurance.
 
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