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Populist Movements Discussed

calamity

calamity

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A pretty valuable 90 minutes can be spent watching this.



Tl, dnw: Roots of populism in our modern world, the rise of strongmen and demise of political parties. People are feeling betrayed by the nuance and compromise promoted by the various political parties and mistakenly believe a Right-leaning nationalist Messiah will take them to the promise land.

Tl, dnr: It's not quite as simple as you may think.
 
calamity said:
A pretty valuable 90 minutes can be spent watching this.



Tl, dnw: Roots of populism in our modern world, the rise of strongmen and demise of political parties. People are feeling betrayed by the nuance and compromise promoted by the various political parties and mistakenly believe a Right-leaning nationalist Messiah will take them to the promise land.

Tl, dnr: It's not quite as simple as you may think.
Click to expand...


A lot of people went with a decrepit old jewish atheist from the left as well, just not as many. It is an issue for political parties in general, and, unfortunately, neither of the two in the US seems to be learning any lessons from it.
 
backpacker said:
A lot of people went with a decrepit old jewish atheist from the left as well, just not as many. It is an issue for political parties in general, and, unfortunately, neither of the two in the US seems to be learning any lessons from it.
Click to expand...

When the party elites on both "sides" become tools of an oligarchy, they eventually push things to fall and the proles notice the pain. Venezuela got Chavez, we got Trump.

I keep looking for a way that some good might come from this, but I haven't found much.
 
Porkuloss said:
When the party elites on both "sides" become tools of an oligarchy, they eventually push things to fall and the proles notice the pain. Venezuela got Chavez, we got Trump.

I keep looking for a way that some good might come from this, but I haven't found much.
Click to expand...

Eventually the shock and awe of a stock market "correction" might make them reflect upon their sins. Until then, the public will just go round and round on the pivot wheel.
 
backpacker said:
Eventually the shock and awe of a stock market "correction" might make them reflect upon their sins. Until then, the public will just go round and round on the pivot wheel.
Click to expand...

I know, and that's looking to be a painful process. The dollar may no longer be the world's reserve currency on the other side. Not betting on that right now, but a lot of things I refused to bet on have come to pass of late.
 
Porkuloss said:
I know, and that's looking to be a painful process. The dollar may no longer be the world's reserve currency on the other side. Not betting on that right now, but a lot of things I refused to bet on have come to pass of late.
Click to expand...

I think the dollar will lose that status as the benchmark for currency exchanges simply because there has been so much intentional manipulation of that system by banks.
 
backpacker said:
I think the dollar will lose that status as the benchmark for currency exchanges simply because there has been so much intentional manipulation of that system by banks.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure that will trigger, since all fiat currencies are pretty easily manipulated. If/when OPEC quits it (petrodollar) - it's done. Regardless, I agree its days are numbered.
 
I see the world as being rather complex, populist leaders promise a more simplified version of it. But, that certainly does not mean it's real. It's just an illusion. And, often the strongman is a bigger thief than the party ever could have been---he has no checks and balances controlling him. See Putin for exhibit A; the Kim Family Dynasty for B.
 
Porkuloss said:
When the party elites on both "sides" become tools of an oligarchy, they eventually push things to fall and the proles notice the pain. Venezuela got Chavez, we got Trump.

I keep looking for a way that some good might come from this, but I haven't found much.
Click to expand...

Although Trump & Chavez rode a populist wave to victory there is a big problem with this statement:

Chavez gathered Venezuela's brown-skinned destitute pardos who make up 80% of the peoples into
a landslide victory. An extreme example of successful identity politic maneuvering! It was Trump's
opponent who tried to gathered every minority in sight Blacks, Latino's, LTGB community, Asians,
immigrants of all shapes & sizes illiegal & legal into a winning coalition & it didn't work! If that
constituency would have prevailed would we have gone down the tragic path of today's
Venezuela probably not but it would have been a starting place down that road.

There is that flaw in democracies that should be looked into! Free Markets concentrate Wealth in
the hands of a market capable minority while when democracy empowers the ethnic minority it forces
a sometimes catastrophic clash. Chavez,Morales, Humala & Ortega in the Americas & the change
in Africa from Rhodesia to Zimbabwe is the prime example.
 
slick said:
Although Trump & Chavez rode a populist wave to victory there is a big problem with this statement:

Chavez gathered Venezuela's brown-skinned destitute pardos who make up 80% of the peoples into
a landslide victory. An extreme example of successful identity politic maneuvering! It was Trump's
opponent who tried to gathered every minority in sight Blacks, Latino's, LTGB community, Asians,
immigrants of all shapes & sizes illiegal & legal into a winning coalition & it didn't work! If that
constituency would have prevailed would we have gone down the tragic path of today's
Venezuela probably not but it would have been a starting place down that road.

There is that flaw in democracies that should be looked into! Free Markets concentrate Wealth in
the hands of a market capable minority while when democracy empowers the ethnic minority it forces
a sometimes catastrophic clash. Chavez,Morales, Humala & Ortega in the Americas & the change
in Africa from Rhodesia to Zimbabwe is the prime example.
Click to expand...

Populism aside, you don't see as much or more identity politics in Trumpism and the behavior of the Republican party as with the Democrats? The target demographics an choice of dog whistles are the only differences I see.
 
slick said:
Although Trump & Chavez rode a populist wave to victory there is a big problem with this statement:

Chavez gathered Venezuela's brown-skinned destitute pardos who make up 80% of the peoples into
a landslide victory. An extreme example of successful identity politic maneuvering! It was Trump's
opponent who tried to gathered every minority in sight Blacks, Latino's, LTGB community, Asians,
immigrants of all shapes & sizes illiegal & legal into a winning coalition & it didn't work! If that
constituency would have prevailed would we have gone down the tragic path of today's
Venezuela probably not but it would have been a starting place down that road.

There is that flaw in democracies that should be looked into! Free Markets concentrate Wealth in
the hands of a market capable minority while when democracy empowers the ethnic minority it forces
a sometimes catastrophic clash. Chavez,Morales, Humala & Ortega in the Americas & the change
in Africa from Rhodesia to Zimbabwe is the prime example.
Click to expand...

What you saw with Trump was pooling the "have-not" ethnic majority in with the "have" successful, capitalist minority via scapegoating the brown-skinned minorities. It probably would have failed if not for the insurmountable and therefore fatal flaws of the opponent. Had minorities and disenchanted youths truly been rallied by her highness, Trump's gambit would not have worked. That's what makes this whole Trump moment so precarious. He has no actual populist coalition. He basically profited off the lack of there being a coherent, energized coalition on the other side.

That's not to say that Trump did not ride in on a stream of populism. But, it was a tiny minority populist movement, not a majority one. The guy squeaked out a victory against a terrible candidate, in short. He certainly was not swept to victory by a tide of populists.
 
calamity said:
What you saw with Trump was pooling the "have-not" ethnic majority in with the "have" successful, capitalist minority via scapegoating the brown-skinned minorities. It probably would have failed if not for the insurmountable and therefore fatal flaws of the opponent. Had minorities and disenchanted youths truly been rallied by her highness, Trump's gambit would not have worked. That's what makes this whole Trump moment so precarious. He has no actual populist coalition. He basically profited off the lack of there being a coherent, energized coalition on the other side.

That's not to say that Trump did not ride in on a stream of populism. But, it was a tiny minority populist movement, not a majority one. The guy squeaked out a victory against a terrible candidate, in short. He certainly was not swept to victory by a tide of populists.
Click to expand...

The same dynamic that elected Obama, elected Trump. I don't think you can really parse it.
 
Porkuloss said:
Populism aside, you don't see as much or more identity politics in Trumpism and the behavior of the Republican party as with the Democrats? The target demographics an choice of dog whistles are the only differences I see.
Click to expand...

It's pretty clear that the constituency of Mrs. Clinton in our election more closely resembled the
constituency of Chavez in Venezuela's election. Simply a gathering together of those who had imagined
or real grievances against the powers that ruled for the previous decade.

CHRISTY MOORE
'Even the olives were bleeding
As the battle for Madrid it thundered on
Truth and love against the force of evil
Brotherhood against the fascist clan'

Trump was the perceived facist in our election as was the entrenched
white majority in Venezuela.

That Trump made believers of some union households left without work in
the rust belt adding to the Republican base does not make his victory
a repeat of the Chavez landslide in which the majority finally realized there
influence in a fledgling democracy.
 
backpacker said:
The same dynamic that elected Obama, elected Trump. I don't think you can really parse it.
Click to expand...

In 2008, Obama had almost 7 million more votes than Don received in '16. Same dynamic perhaps, but much more of a populist movement. He abandoned many of those voters though. So far Trump is pretending that he is not, but I am sure he is. Already he is ducking out of several promises.
 
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