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Trump doesn't understand how NATO works, former ambassador says

Gaugingcatenate said:
A question having NOTHING to do with the OP.

I would suggest trying to find a thread that deals with the topic you are so seriously interested in. Just saying as it is not a particularly smart tactic to go off topic and then incessantly press a question that is completely irrelevant.

Try harder.
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I know, but in all this time, you could have just answered it.

You went on about rationality, so I asked a simple question that connects to what you going on about.

iguanaman said:
You are apparently possessed with unsupported conspiracy theories about the M.E. The invasion of Iraq was indeed a horrible mistake, the rest is just ridiculous.
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Anyone who cites Howard Zinn can't be taken seriously.

DaveFagan is one of the forum's resident conspiracy theorists and tends to spew all sorts of baseless anti-American/Western propaganda from time to time.
 
Van Basten said:
I know, but in all this time, you could have just answered it.

You went on about rationality, so I asked a simple question that connects to what you going on about.
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I am not going to answer such an imbecilic question, just am not. Based on principle... got any idea what those are?

It had nothing to do with rationality. But by refusing to answer it was a rational decision based on the thread topic. Got anything to say about the thread topic?
 
radcen said:
If you think he understands how NATO works, then I question that you understand how NATO works. Seriously, defending the guy on everything to your last breath makes you look bad.
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But Trump does understand how NATO works and he does understand that the US almost completely funds other countries' defense. Seriously, attacking the guy on everything to your last breath makes you look bad. You should give the guy his due when he is right and only attack him when he is wrong.
 
reinoe said:
Trump putting pressure on them is making them honor their agreement. These European countries have no integrity. They want the U.S. to sacrifice the blood of our children to prop up their own sloth and indolence. It's disgusting.
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Yep. The European liberals want the US to foot the bill for their defense so that they can afford nationalized healthcare for their citizens and other programs for the poor and then they ask why the US can't do this for their citizens.
 
Van Basten said:
Still no answer, how telling. You don't need expert knowledge, science has found the answer already. A quick google search is all one needs to know the answer.

What I am "trying here" is to get a simple answer to a simple question. It wasn't a trick question or meant to get the rise out of you, it was just a straightforward question.
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This is a thread about NATO. If you can't stay on topic then please leave the discussion. I believe there are other forums down below where you can debate Creationism.
 
Moderate Right said:
radcen said:
If you think he understands how NATO works, then I question that you understand how NATO works. Seriously, defending the guy on everything to your last breath makes you look bad.
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But Trump does understand how NATO works and he does understand that the US almost completely funds other countries' defense. Seriously, attacking the guy on everything to your last breath makes you look bad. You should give the guy his due when he is right and only attack him when he is wrong.
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1) Friendly debate tip: Repeating the same thing back to a person is the absolute weakest, lamest, laziest method of rebuttal. Demonstrates no articulate thought whatsoever.

2) Trump does not understand NATO, it's clear. You provided no actual rebuttal on that point other than to say, "Nuh uh!"

3) You are factually wrong regarding my slamming him "on every last breath", as proven by this post on 2/14/2017...
radcen said:
In the interest of fairness I feel it necessary to state when I agree with something President Trump says/does, especially as seldom as that may be. Well, here's one: NATO members "need to pay their fair share" of the costs of collective defense.

I wholly agree with that. So, you ask, what is their "fair share"?

According to an NPR news story this morning (of which I could not find a suitable link), each member nation is expected to contribute 2% of their annual GDP. Of the 28 current member nations, only 5 currently do so... US, UK, Greece, Poland, and Estonia. I was surprised that Germany does not. Latvia and Lithuania are increasing their spending as a result of recent Russian threats. Belgium is apparently the worst and contributes almost nothing.

The news story also mentioned the possibility of protests in some countries, Belgium cited again, because increasing military spending would cause cuts elsewhere. Let me be very clear in my response to that: I don't care. Suck it up and do it anyway.

I do not find this expectation unreasonable at all. In fact, I support pushing them to do what they promised they'd do. Truth be told, it's in their best interest even more so than our best interest. Part of the purpose of the story is that many people in Europe feel the same way I do, they detest Trump, but feel he is correct on this issue.

The news story mentions, and had audio quotes, from both Presidents Bush (II) and Obama saying essentially the same thing, so don't go the partisan route on this one.

This makes 2 (or 3) areas where I agree with Trump, but he's still a putz.
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...and this post on 3/1/2017...
radcen said:
Honesty Check: President Trump

This thread is for people with uber-strong opinions regarding President Trump.

If you are a die-hard Trump supporter, can you name one significant thing he has done or proposed that you disagree with?

If you are a die-hard Trump detractor, can you name one significant thing he has done or proposed that you agree with?

These questions go back to the beginning of his campaign, and are not limited to only his time in office thus far, and as clearly noted include things he has said / promised / proposed.

No one person and their policies are perfect. Any simple-minded person can be led to believe everything, hook, line and sinker... and any simple-minded person can prattle on about actions being the only important aspect, but actions come from words first... so if you say that literally everything he has said and done is good (or bad), then you are a liar. I will not say, "You, <insert name here>, are a liar.", of course, but it will be clear. If you cannot find something that you honestly like/dislike then you are not even trying to be honest and objective.

Same consideration goes for Obama, Bush II, Clinton, and on back. If you couldn't find something that you liked/disliked then you weren't even trying to be objective.

I will go first...

I, radcen, am an admittedly extreme Trump detractor. It's known, it's obvious, and I am adult enough to admit it. I am adult enough to own it. Knowing that, there are some things he has said/done that I do indeed like and agree with, and I can name more than just one...

1) I agree with his wanting to eliminate baseline budgeting. I don't think it will happen, Congress and both parties love it too much, but I agree with the sentiment and the rationale.

2) I agree with his wanting to deport illegal immigrants. I do not support his dumbass wall thing, however, but deporting those here illegally is long overdue.

3) I fully support his wanting NATO members to pay their "fair share". He doesn't say what that is, but I take it as per the agreement that all involved nations agreed to, 2% of GDP.

There might be even one or two more, that's just what comes to me at the moment.

How about you?
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Gaugingcatenate said:
I am not going to answer such an imbecilic question, just am not. Based on principle... got any idea what those are?

It had nothing to do with rationality. But by refusing to answer it was a rational decision based on the thread topic. Got anything to say about the thread topic?
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Well, you pretty much answered my question in the end.

Smh.
 
iguanaman said:
You are apparently possessed with unsupported conspiracy theories about the M.E. The invasion of Iraq was indeed a horrible mistake, the rest is just ridiculous.
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Ridiculous, you say! Show me where Syria threatened or attackdd the USA. Show me where Libya threatened or attacked the USA. Show me where Haiti threatened or attacked the USA. Show me where Panama threatened or attacked the USA. Show me where Vietnam threatened or attacked the USA. Show me where Cambodia threatened or attacked the USA. Show me where Laos threatened or attacked the USA. Then count the bodies. I may have underestimated. You know, dead bodies are just facts, not conspiracies.
/
 
DaveFagan said:
Ridiculous, you say! Show me where Syria threatened or attackdd the USA. Show me where Libya threatened or attacked the USA. Show me where Haiti threatened or attacked the USA. Show me where Panama threatened or attacked the USA. Show me where Vietnam threatened or attacked the USA. Show me where Cambodia threatened or attacked the USA. Show me where Laos threatened or attacked the USA. Then count the bodies. I may have underestimated. You know, dead bodies are just facts, not conspiracies.
/
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How many troops did we send to Libya or Syria? And what the hell is Haiti doing in that list? The US has made mistakes but Iraq is the only country we invaded without invitation. You have daggers in your eyes for the wrong enemy. Find out what is like to live in a country near a real tyrant.....and have the rug pulled out by a rogue President who sold out to the enemy.

Lithuania has been one of Ukraine’s strongest supporters in Europe, one of the only countries to provide “lethal” weapons to the country’s military. Its fiercely anti-Russian President Dalia Grybauskaitė has visited Kiev as often as America’s former Vice President Joe Biden, and is close to Ukrainain President Petro Poroshenko.

It’s exactly this unabashed support for Ukraine that has put the country in the Kremlin’s crosshairs. Russian jets repeatedly violated Lithuanian airspace last year, and senior advisers to the president have had their accounts hacked. The country has also been spooked by Russia’s transfer of nuclear-capable Iskander missiles to its enclave of Kaliningrad, which shares a long border with Lithuania. And then there’s Trump, who has repeatedly called NATO into question and praised Lithuania’s arch enemy, Russian President Vladimir Putin.
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In the Baltics, waiting for history to start up again – POLITICO

Putin-Russia-foreign-minister-lithuania-733708.jpg


Lithuania fear Vladimir Putin will use Donald Trump election to test Nato | World | News | Express.co.uk
 
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iguanaman said:
How many troops did we send to Libya or Syria? And what the hell is Haiti doing in that list? The US has made mistakes but Iraq is the only country we invaded without invitation. You have daggers in your eyes for the wrong enemy. Find out what is like to live in a country near a real tyrant.....and have the rug pulled out by a rogue President who sold out to the enemy.




We have uninvited troops, invaders, in Syria and we are bombing with aircraft. We sent Haftar, CIA, to Libya, uninvited, and we have bombed there. The USA uses thousands of MERCs hired by the CIA in Ukraine. In Haiti, we kidnapped Aristide, and sent him to Africa. That'd be US Marines.
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