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It is all coming true!!!!!!!

calamity said:
The op makes it clear that the money is coming from taxpayers. The argument is where is it going. I see the Student Loan things as a massive wealth transfer from poor to rich. Rather than taxing the rich to fund education, for example.
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Well I started with nothing and I am in the 2% crowd now and still climbing. The fact is I pay plenty and the bottom 50% of the country pay basically no fed income tax. Look at the numbers at where the bulk of the money tax wise comes from and it's not from the poor. This whole class warfare is crazy and solves no problems it only creates more. The sad fact is the majority of poor in this country are poor because of their own poor choices period!!! I think everyone should pay a equal amount percentage wise in some form of flat tax. The taking from one class and giving to another has never worked and never will. The rich pays the most in taxes and how dare the government let them/ us keep more of our own money.
http://www.cnbc.com/2015/04/13/top-1-pay-nearly-half-of-federal-income-taxes.html
Sent from my SM-G920R4 using Tapatalk define fair for me please? Is this fair? Or do you want more from the wealthy? Give me what percentage?
 
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Partsguy57 said:
Well I started with nothing and I am in the 2% crowd now and still climbing. The fact is I pay plenty and the bottom 50% of the country pay basically no fed income tax. Look at the numbers at where the bulk of the money tax wise comes from and it's not from the poor. This whole class warfare is crazy and solves no problems it only creates more. The sad fact is the majority of poor in this country are poor because of their own poor choices period!!! I think everyone should pay a equal amount percentage wise in some form of flat tax. The taking from one class and giving to another has never worked and never will. The rich pays the most in taxes and how dare the government let them/ us keep more of our own money.
http://www.cnbc.com/2015/04/13/top-1-pay-nearly-half-of-federal-income-taxes.html
Sent from my SM-G920R4 using Tapatalk define fair for me please? Is this fair? Or do you want more from the wealthy? Give me what percentage?
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I'm up there myself. But, I just consider myself fortunate and have no problem paying what I have to pay. Of course, I take every deduction I can, and rarely gripe when a tax cut comes through. I like the 401K, HSA, insurance premium and dependent spouse deductions. I max out on all of those. And, if Trump raises some of those ceilings...I won't be complaining.

Part of me wonders where we are heading though. There are a lot of have-nots in this country, and the list is growing.
 
calamity said:
I'm up there myself. But, I just consider myself fortunate and have no problem paying what I have to pay. Of course, I take every deduction I can, and rarely gripe when a tax cut comes through. I like the 401K, HSA, insurance premium and dependent spouse deductions. I max out on all of those. And, if Trump raises some of those ceilings...I won't be complaining.

Part of me wonders where we are heading though. There are a lot of have-nots in this country, and the list is growing.
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I would argue the list of have-nots has grown with the growth of government. You can not " force " success on the lower class by taking from the upper class. My success ( and my group of friends like minded tend to hang out) has not been to good fortune, in fact quite the opposite. Drive, talent ( and yes making money is talent) long hours and most importantly, wise choices are the keys to success. The lie foisted on the poor, youth etc. Work hard you will get ahead. Lie! Go to college equals success, lie! Wealth handed to you will make you succeed., lie! The latest government program will make you successfull, lie! If only those nasty rich people would pay their fair share things would be equal, lie! There is only so many slices of the pie to go around, lie! There is only one key to success, ones self. There is still huge opportunity in the country ( it shrinks with the growth of government) if one chooses to reach for it. Again the vast majority of poor in this country are poor by their own poor choices. Period! Until the values of personal responsibility, coupled with drive, talent, wise choices, self reliance, taking responsibility for one's bad choices, things will never improve as far as the poor. The facts are in just look at the dollars spent since the great War on poverty was started in the sixties. Failure!! You will never!!!! See the keys to succeed pushed by the left as they need a permanent underclass to keep themselves in power. This is the biggest lie of all foisted on the poor and so many fall for it. Vote for us and we promise that stealing from the haves, growing the size of government/programs and your life will improve... what a lie and so many fall for it....

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Partsguy57 said:
I would argue the list of have-nots has grown with the growth of government. You can not " force " success on the lower class by taking from the upper class. My success ( and my group of friends like minded tend to hang out) has not been to good fortune, in fact quite the opposite. Drive, talent ( and yes making money is talent) long hours and most importantly, wise choices are the keys to success. The lie foisted on the poor, youth etc. Work hard you will get ahead. Lie! Go to college equals success, lie! Wealth handed to you will make you succeed., lie! The latest government program will make you successfull, lie! If only those nasty rich people would pay their fair share things would be equal, lie! There is only so many slices of the pie to go around, lie! There is only one key to success, ones self. There is still huge opportunity in the country ( it shrinks with the growth of government) if one chooses to reach for it. Again the vast majority of poor in this country are poor by their own poor choices. Period! Until the values of personal responsibility, coupled with drive, talent, wise choices, self reliance, taking responsibility for one's bad choices, things will never improve as far as the poor. The facts are in just look at the dollars spent since the great War on poverty was started in the sixties. Failure!! You will never!!!! See the keys to succeed pushed by the left as they need a permanent underclass to keep themselves in power. This is the biggest lie of all foisted on the poor and so many fall for it. Vote for us and we promise that stealing from the haves, growing the size of government/programs and your life will improve... what a lie and so many fall for it....

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Good fortune as defined by winning the ovarian lottery: brains, temperament, ambition, impulse control, probably a safe environment while growing up, opportunity, good schools....it's a long list. I can see a dozen what ifs that would have screwed my chances. The biggest is not having two loving, responsible parents. Without them, I'd probably be in jail by now.
 
calamity said:
Good fortune as defined by winning the ovarian lottery: brains, temperament, ambition, impulse control, probably a safe environment while growing up, opportunity, good schools....it's a long list. I can see a dozen what ifs that would have screwed my chances. The biggest is not having two loving, responsible parents. Without them, I'd probably be in jail by now.
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Hmm there is some truth to what you say, but you make no mention of wise personal choices, none! Why?? I submit nearly all those things you listed if they were a problem could be overcome by wise choices, drive, the will to succeed etc. Yet you make no mention of these as being the keys to success. You claim you did well and I would submit the biggest driver of this would be you. All those things you mentioned would make success easier, but ultimately it was based on what you did. I think you sell yourself short and any others looking for leadership for the keys to success .

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Partsguy57 said:
Hmm there is some truth to what you say, but you make no mention of wise personal choices, none! Why?? I submit nearly all those things you listed if they were a problem could be overcome by wise choices, drive, the will to succeed etc. Yet you make no mention of these as being the keys to success. You claim you did well and I would submit the biggest driver of this would be you. All those things you mentioned would make success easier, but ultimately it was based on what you did. I think you sell yourself short and any others looking for leadership for the keys to success .

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Wise personal choices requires brains, impulse control, and a somewhat stable temperament, at the very least. It also helps if you are not predisposed to chemical addictions or raised by irresponsible apes who did not teach good decision making. Rare is someone who was not given any tools or training suddenly becoming a skilled craftsman.
 
Lutherf said:
When is the last time taxes were raised on the middle class?

Seriously, when is the last time an individual making the equivalent of $50,000 or a couple making the equivalent of $100k had a tax increase?
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It happens pretty often at the state level. Property tax increase, personal property taxes, sales tax increases, fees going up. They always get their money from somewhere. Personally, I would just assume they tax my income at whatever rate is needed to raise sufficient revenue and leave me alone after that.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
It happens pretty often at the state level. Property tax increase, personal property taxes, sales tax increases, fees going up. They always get their money from somewhere. Personally, I would just assume they tax my income at whatever rate is needed to raise sufficient revenue and leave me alone after that.
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Well, property taxes and sales taxes are a whole 'nuther kettle of fish and aren't exactly what I took the OP to be talking about.
 
MaggieD said:
Someone making $80,000 a year does not pay 25% on their earnings.
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To hell they don't. If you earn 80k a year, you are paying a 15% payroll tax rate before you even pay a cent in income taxes. You think they don't on average pay at least 10% at minimum in federal income taxes?

And don't draw a distinction either, payroll and income taxes are for all intents and purposes exactly the same to you unless you earn above the payroll tax ceiling.

Let's say a person earns 80k a year. They pay a 15% effective rate in payroll taxes (half are paid by their employer but any economist will tell you that you are paying that), plus say 15% in income taxes. That is 30% of their income being effectively taxed at the federal level.

Compare this to a guy that makes 700k a year. You think they are on average paying more than 30% in taxes to the federal government? Payroll taxes top out at 118k a year.
 
Lutherf said:
Well, property taxes and sales taxes are a whole 'nuther kettle of fish and aren't exactly what I took the OP to be talking about.
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I will give you that, but usually when you cut income taxes, those taxes have to go up to make the difference. So in the end, its all related.
 
calamity said:
Wise personal choices requires brains, impulse control, and a somewhat stable temperament, at the very least. It also helps if you are not predisposed to chemical addictions or raised by irresponsible apes who did not teach good decision making. Rare is someone who was not given any tools or training suddenly becoming a skilled craftsman.
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I don't agree, the vast majority of us have brains, impulse control, stable temperament is something the vast majority can exercise matter how one is raised, drug use is a choice, that needle is not forced into ones arm, if one wants a certain skill bad enough they will make choices to make that happen. The list you give and sold to many as the reason for their lack of success is a lie. All of that trumped by personal responsibility and wise choices. At some point one grows up, becomes a adult, pulls on their big boy pants and takes care of business in spite of their past. Those that don't will never be successful no matter how much is given to them.

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I think in terms of taxes as a percentage of income (federal, state, and payroll), households earning between 100k and 250k or so a year probably pay the largest percentage of their income.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
To hell they don't. If you earn 80k a year, you are paying a 15% payroll tax rate before you even pay a cent in income taxes. You think they don't on average pay at least 10% at minimum in federal income taxes?

And don't draw a distinction either, payroll and income taxes are for all intents and purposes exactly the same to you unless you earn above the payroll tax ceiling.

Let's say a person earns 80k a year. They pay a 15% effective rate in payroll taxes (half are paid by their employer but any economist will tell you that you are paying that), plus say 15% in income taxes. That is 30% of their income being effectively taxed at the federal level.

Compare this to a guy that makes 700k a year. You think they are on average paying more than 30% in taxes to the federal government? Payroll taxes top out at 118k a year.
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Mea culpa. Ran some numbers. Without exemptions and itemized deductions, you are correct.
 
Partsguy57 said:
I don't agree, the vast majority of us have brains, impulse control, stable temperament is something the vast majority can exercise matter how one is raised, drug use is a choice, that needle is not forced into ones arm, if one wants a certain skill bad enough they will make choices to make that happen. The list you give and sold to many as the reason for their lack of success is a lie. All of that trumped by personal responsibility and wise choices. At some point one grows up, becomes a adult, pulls on their big boy pants and takes care of business in spite of their past. Those that don't will never be successful no matter how much is given to them.

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People do not do the right thing by osmosis. They are taught to do it. Someone who wasn't taught is at a huge disadvantage compared to those of us who were. That's why I say I know I was fortunate, and why I understand my success was not all my doing.

Btw, the average IQ is 100. Are you honestly going to argue those people have the same chance at success as someone with IQ over 140?
 
calamity said:
People do not do the right thing by osmosis. They are taught to do it. Someone who wasn't taught is at a huge disadvantage compared to those of us who were. That's why I say I know I was fortunate, and why I understand my success was not all my doing.

Btw, the average IQ is 100. Are you honestly going to argue those people have the same chance at success as someone with IQ over 140?
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Everyone is given different gifts and talents. Are you suggesting that life can be made fair? If so by who? The government? Who defines fair? Stealing from one group to give to another is fair? The government has been stealing in earnest from one group to another since the great War on poverty started in the sixties. Why has this not worked? ( look at the numbers it's all there to look at) is more money needed???


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Partsguy57 said:
Everyone is given different gifts and talents. Are you suggesting that life can be made fair? If so by who? The government? Who defines fair? Stealing from one group to give to another is fair? The government has been stealing in earnest from one group to another since the great War on poverty started in the sixties. Why has this not worked? ( look at the numbers it's all there to look at) is more money needed???


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I was only stating what I thought was obvious: those of us who are successful were very fortunate. Over 99.9999% of the people on this planet lack most of the advantages the top 2% in this country apparently take for granted. I guess you have no idea how lucky you really were.
 
calamity said:
I was only stating what I thought was obvious: those of us who are successful were very fortunate. Over 99.9999% of the people on this planet lack most of the advantages the top 2% in this country apparently take for granted. I guess you have no idea how lucky you really were.
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Shrug.. it's the country that our founding fathers gave us is what we are fortunate to have. What we choose to do with that gift is up to us. Again making wise choices. Maybe I'm wrong, but it appears to me that you feel guilty for your success. Do I feel guilty? In no way shape or form!! I started with nothing and am successful by my own two hands. Has there been lots of obstacles?? Lol yep! And the government being the biggest one....

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Partsguy57 said:
Shrug.. it's the country that our founding fathers gave us is what we are fortunate to have. What we choose to do with that gift is up to us. Again making wise choices. Maybe I'm wrong, but it appears to me that you feel guilty for your success. Do I feel guilty? In no way shape or form!! I started with nothing and am successful by my own two hands. Has there been lots of obstacles?? Lol yep! And the government being the biggest one....

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No. It's hubris versus humility. I simply have the latter while you seem stuck on the former.
 
calamity said:
No. It's hubris versus humility. I simply have the latter while you seem stuck on the former.
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You undersell yourself. The sad part is in doing so the real keys to succeed are not talked about or pushed by you, and not certainly by the left....... MESSAGE of the left, you did not build this, you cannot succeed without us/ the government, it's never your fault when things go wrong..... I could list quite a number of things as you are well aware. Cheers

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Partsguy57 said:
You undersell yourself. The sad part is in doing so the real keys to succeed are not talked about or pushed by you, and not certainly by the left....... MESSAGE of the left, you did not build this, you cannot succeed without us/ the government, it's never your fault when things go wrong..... I could list quite a number of things as you are well aware. Cheers

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The Left tends to go too far with that meme. The Right not far enough. You should consider being a Centrist. It's the bed that fits just right.
 
calamity said:
The Left tends to go too far with that meme. The Right not far enough. You should consider being a Centrist. It's the bed that fits just right.
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Lol that may not be so fun.... have a good day.. I need to do something more profitable then typing away. Cheers

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Partsguy57 said:
Lol that may not be so fun.... have a good day.. I need to do something more profitable then typing away. Cheers

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You might want to figure out a way to get weekends off. :)
 
calamity said:
You might want to figure out a way to get weekends off. :)
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Lol I do have them off, in fact I can take any day off I choose as I'm self employed and made wise choices to allow for this. ( had to pull your chain one more time) I'm working on setting up the fuel injection on this latest project car of mine.. cheers
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Lutherf said:
When is the last time taxes were raised on the middle class?

Seriously, when is the last time an individual making the equivalent of $50,000 or a couple making the equivalent of $100k had a tax increase?
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Hopefully NEVER. Taking money from those that spend it all in the economy is self-defeating. Every extra $ comes right out of the GDP as reduced spending, crippling the economy and heading us to recession. That is why progressive taxes are so important. The less progressive taxes get the slower our economy can grow. Consumer spending is 75% of our GDP.
 
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