In My Opinion The Only Way.......

If Republicans and Democrats, (elected or just voting supporters), really gave a damn about America’s healthcare and our Constitution, they’d repeal all federal healthcare programs because they’re not constitutional, (see amendment 10, United States Constitution), and distribute all federal collected money therewith to the States and or the people and support amendment 10 and simply allow the States and or the people to decide and or institute their own healthcare programs.


Also, every dime of healthcare money spent on healthcare and healthcare insurance should be exempt from all federal and State income taxation.


Furthermore, the only authority the federal government has over healthcare is the regulation of the commerce of it among the several States. Thus, Congress should pass and the President should sign legislation making interstate commerce of healthcare insurance a legal right of the customer.

How about some numbers?

Personally, I'd turn the EPA and the Dept of Education in to ten person offices...

chuckiechan said:

How about some numbers?

Personally, I'd turn the EPA and the Dept of Education in to ten person offices...

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I'd turn them into foot notes in history. There's no constitutional authority for either. I'd leave environmental issues to the States and the courts. It's a violation of other people's rights to pollute their water or air, that's what the courts are for. Education is best left to the authority closes to the people/children being educated like parents and local government and elected school boards.

TheHammer said:

If Republicans and Democrats, (elected or just voting supporters), really gave a damn about America’s healthcare and our Constitution, they’d repeal all federal healthcare programs because they’re not constitutional, (see amendment 10, United States Constitution), and distribute all federal collected money therewith to the States and or the people and support amendment 10 and simply allow the States and or the people to decide and or institute their own healthcare programs.


Also, every dime of healthcare money spent on healthcare and healthcare insurance should be exempt from all federal and State income taxation.


Furthermore, the only authority the federal government has over healthcare is the regulation of the commerce of it among the several States. Thus, Congress should pass and the President should sign legislation making interstate commerce of healthcare insurance a legal right of the customer.

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You might be correct in the sense the government can't legislate healthcare as per the 10th amendment....but you are wrong that government can't tax and spend for the general welfare as per Article 1, Section 8....

chuckiechan said:

How about some numbers?

Personally, I'd turn the EPA and the Dept of Education in to ten person offices...

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I'm all for making the states more sovereign than they are. However, I think something akin to the EPA is necessary because air and water do cross state lines.

BrewerBob said:

I'm all for making the states more sovereign than they are. However, I think something akin to the EPA is necessary because air and water do cross state lines.

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That's when the Libertarian answer comes into play and you sue the **** out of them.

Moot said:

You might be correct in the sense the government can't legislate healthcare as per the 10th amendment....but you are wrong that government can't tax and spend for the general welfare as per Article 1, Section 8....


General Welfare legal definition of General Welfare[/indent]

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The General Welfare is those things enumerated in the Constitution and not the whims and wants of politicians and the majority mob.

Surely, if I'm wrong, you can explain to me WHAT the feds can't do in the name of the General Welfare? As Thomas Jefferson noted, if the General Welfare clause were interpreted as you claim, the clause would trump the entire Constitution and render it to a single clause.

Here's Jefferson's interpretation of the General Welfare clause.

Thomas Jefferson Opinion on Constitutional Interpretation Date: February 15, 1791

“They are not to do anything they please to provide for the general welfare , but only to lay taxes for that purpose. To consider the latter phrase not as describing the purpose of the first, but as giving a distinct and independent power to do any act they please which may be good for the Union, would render all the preceding and subsequent enumerations of power completely useless. It would reduce the whole instrument to a single phrase, that of instituting a Congress with power to do whatever would be for the good of the United States; and as they sole judges of the good or evil, it would be also a power to do whatever evil they please . . . . Certainly no such universal power was meant to be given them. It was intended to lace them up straightly within the enumerated powers and those without which, as means, these powers could not be carried into effect.

BrewerBob said:

I'm all for making the states more sovereign than they are. However, I think something akin to the EPA is necessary because air and water do cross state lines.

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That's what the federal courts are for. The EPA is simply an un-elected body of authoritarians devoted to wielding as much power they can get away with writing laws that are constitutionally the power and duty of an elected Congress. The EPA is a total waste of money. Every State can have their own EPA, they don't need the power mad feds.

TheHammer said:

If Republicans and Democrats, (elected or just voting supporters), really gave a damn about America’s healthcare and our Constitution, they’d repeal all federal healthcare programs because they’re not constitutional, (see amendment 10, United States Constitution), and distribute all federal collected money therewith to the States and or the people and support amendment 10 and simply allow the States and or the people to decide and or institute their own healthcare programs.


Also, every dime of healthcare money spent on healthcare and healthcare insurance should be exempt from all federal and State income taxation.


Furthermore, the only authority the federal government has over healthcare is the regulation of the commerce of it among the several States. Thus, Congress should pass and the President should sign legislation making interstate commerce of healthcare insurance a legal right of the customer.

Click to expand...

Directly & indirectly we can all thank Abraham Lincoln for the mass pissing on states rights; oh that's right, Abe was the first GOP POTUS

not only was Lincoln the very first GOP POTUS but he violated the US Constitution likely more often than any other POTUS in history

The irony is epic ..................... well, at least ole 'Honest Abe' got what he deserved in the end ............... GOP tyrant ............

cuban smokes said:

Directly & indirectly we can all thank Abraham Lincoln for the mass pissing on states rights; oh that's right, Abe was the first GOP POTUS

not only was Lincoln the very first GOP POTUS but he violated the US Constitution likely more often than any other POTUS in history

The irony is epic ..................... well, at least ole 'Honest Abe' got what he deserved in the end ............... GOP tyrant ............

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So you promote assassinations, right? Did Abe give us the ACA?

TheHammer said:

So you promote assassinations, right? Did Abe give us the ACA?

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I am not Don Cheeto; I stand by my statement.

I will say it a different way ....... Lincoln was a tyrant; did you get that?

He got what he deserved, IMO

we clear now?


AFA states rights go, you're likely a smart person; you should understand the implication of my earlier post

TheHammer said:

The General Welfare is those things enumerated in the Constitution and not the whims and wants of politicians and the majority mob.

Surely, if I'm wrong, you can explain to me WHAT the feds can't do in the name of the General Welfare? As Thomas Jefferson noted, if the General Welfare clause were interpreted as you claim, the clause would trump the entire Constitution and render it to a single clause.

Here's Jefferson's interpretation of the General Welfare clause.

Thomas Jefferson Opinion on Constitutional Interpretation Date: February 15, 1791

“They are not to do anything they please to provide for the general welfare , but only to lay taxes for that purpose. To consider the latter phrase not as describing the purpose of the first, but as giving a distinct and independent power to do any act they please which may be good for the Union, would render all the preceding and subsequent enumerations of power completely useless. It would reduce the whole instrument to a single phrase, that of instituting a Congress with power to do whatever would be for the good of the United States; and as they sole judges of the good or evil, it would be also a power to do whatever evil they please . . . . Certainly no such universal power was meant to be given them. It was intended to lace them up straightly within the enumerated powers and those without which, as means, these powers could not be carried into effect.

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As I understand it...congress can't legislate for the general welfare because that is a states right....but they can tax and spend federal money for the general welfare.

The only stipulation mentioned in the tax and spend clause is that it "shall be uniform throughout the United States."


So what congress can't do is single out one or two states to favor/punish over others. All tax and spending must be applied uniformly to all the states.

cuban smokes said:

we clear now?

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It's clear your attempting an intimidating tone apparently in a feeble effort to scare me. I don't scare easy especially by keyboard jocks. Got it?

Moot said:

As I understand it...congress can't legislate for the general welfare because that is a states right....but they can tax and spend federal money for the general welfare.

The only stipulation mentioned in the tax and spend clause is that it "shall be uniform throughout the United States."

Section 8. Clause 1. The Congress shall have Power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States.​

So what congress can't do is single out one or two states to favor/punish over others. All tax and spending must be applied uniformly to all the states.

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The Congress cannot constitutionally tax and spend for things not authorized to the federal government by the Constitution. Nowhere is a federal healthcare plan authorized to the feds in the Constitution.

TheHammer said:

The Congress cannot constitutionally tax and spend for things not authorized to the federal government by the Constitution. Nowhere is a federal healthcare plan authorized to the feds in the Constitution.

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To "provide for the general welfare" was specifically mentioned as a government priority in both the preamble and the tax and spend clause of the constitution. So it's not debatable if it's constitutional....but what is debatable is what qualifies as a benefit to the public welfare. IE: police, education, healthcare, social security, foodstamps, unemployment insurance, infrastructure, etc...

Moot said:

To "provide for the general welfare" was specifically mentioned as a government priority in both the preamble and the tax and spend clause of the constitution. So it's not debatable if it's constitutional....but what is debatable is what qualifies as a benefit to the public welfare. IE: police, education, healthcare, social security, foodstamps, unemployment insurance, infrastructure, etc...

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The words in the preamble and article one section eight of the Constitution, “to provide for the general welfare,” are simply identifying those things enumerated in the Constitution authorizing what the federal Congress could do/legislate. Those things enumerated in article one section eight of the Constitution and amendments that authorize the Congress to do something.

The following is a quote from Thomas Jefferson concerning the “general welfare” clause. Jefferson notes that the general welfare clause is the mention of those things enumerated in the Constitution. Jefferson also notes that any other broader interpretation would trump the entire Constitution and render it to a single clause, the general welfare clause.

Thomas Jefferson Opinion on Constitutional Interpretation Date: February 15, 1791

“They are not to do anything they please to provide for the general welfare , but only to lay taxes for that purpose. To consider the latter phrase not as describing the purpose of the first, but as giving a distinct and independent power to do any act they please which may be good for the Union, would render all the preceding and subsequent enumerations of power completely useless. It would reduce the whole instrument to a single phrase, that of instituting a Congress with power to do whatever would be for the good of the United States; and as they sole judges of the good or evil, it would be also a power to do whatever evil they please . . . . Certainly no such universal power was meant to be given them. It was intended to lace them up straightly within the enumerated powers and those without which, as means, these powers could not be carried into effect.”

If Republicans and Democrats really cared about healthcare we would have single payer right now. It is the most effective system. When I say effective I mean in reality, and not some weird worshiped theory that states competition is the only possible driver towards efficiency.

TheHammer said:

Thomas Jefferson Opinion on Constitutional Interpretation Date: February 15, 1791

“They are not to do anything they please to provide for the general welfare , but only to lay taxes for that purpose. To consider the latter phrase not as describing the purpose of the first, but as giving a distinct and independent power to do any act they please which may be good for the Union, would render all the preceding and subsequent enumerations of power completely useless. It would reduce the whole instrument to a single phrase, that of instituting a Congress with power to do whatever would be for the good of the United States; and as they sole judges of the good or evil, it would be also a power to do whatever evil they please . . . . Certainly no such universal power was meant to be given them. It was intended to lace them up straightly within the enumerated powers and those without which, as means, these powers could not be carried into effect.”

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And yet during his presidency 12 years later, his lieutenants in the House were justifying the constitutionality of Jefferson's Louisiana Purchase on exactly the grounds Jefferson denounces in that quote. Here's Caesar Rodney (subsequently tapped by Jefferson to be Attorney General) on the floor of the House:

By the Constitution Congress have power to "lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defence and general welfare of the United States." To provide for the general welfare! The import of these terms is very comprehensive indeed. If this general delegation of authority be not at variance with other particular powers specially granted, nor restricted by them; if it be not in any degree comprehended in those subsequently delegated, I cannot perceive why, within the fair meaning of this general provision is not include the power of increasing our territory, if necessary for the general welfare or common defence.

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MrPeanut said:

If Republicans and Democrats really cared about healthcare we would have single payer right now. It is the most effective system. When I say effective I mean in reality, and not some weird worshiped theory that states competition is the only possible driver towards efficiency.

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Are you unaware of the failures of Single Payer? Actually it has it's problems also. I'd suggest you check out the multitude of net sites describing those failures/problems.

With a State's authority over healthcare as guaranteed by the 10th amendment, a State, Your State, could have a single payer program if that's what the politicians and the people in your State wanted. Your problem with that is what?

Greenbeard said:

And yet during his presidency 12 years later, his lieutenants in the House were justifying the constitutionality of Jefferson's Louisiana Purchase on exactly the grounds Jefferson denounces in that quote. Here's Caesar Rodney (subsequently tapped by Jefferson to be Attorney General) on the floor of the House:

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The sanity and rationality of Jefferson's quote regarding the general welfare, is in no way debunked by Jefferson's own constitutional violations.

If you want to argue such then begin by stating WHAT the Congress cannot do in the name of the general welfare clause if the clause is an enumerated power all by itself and not simply a description of the forgoing enumerated powers of the Congress.

By the way, if we study Jefferson's Presidency, we'll find that Jefferson actually knew his Louisiana Purchase did not meet constitutional muster without an amendment. His dilemma was he felt he had to strike while the fire was hot and Napoleon hadn't changed his mind and a constitutional amendment was possibly too long of a process.

Also we can find similar quotes from Madison and even Hamilton as Jefferson's, regarding the general welfare clause.

TheHammer said:

The sanity and rationality of Jefferson's quote regarding the general welfare, is in no way debunked by Jefferson's own constitutional violations.

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Takes the wind out of the sails of that appeal to authority though, doesn't it?

The "kawnstitution" doesn't say we can have life-saving surgery, abortions, anti-biotics, anesthetics, and cancer treatments. Should they be banned?

Greenbeard said:

Takes the wind out of the sails of that appeal to authority though, doesn't it?

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Not at all! The statement stands as rational common sense.

AtlantaAdonis said:

The "kawnstitution" doesn't say we can have life-saving surgery, abortions, anti-biotics, anesthetics, and cancer treatments. Should they be banned?

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That statement isn't worthy of an answer.