• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Black man refers to slaves as immigrants. How embarassing.

KLATTU said:
Certainly it wasn’t easy for those of African heritage who had not come here voluntarily, and yet in their own way were immigrants themselves. There was discrimination and hardship and poverty. But, like you, they no doubt found inspiration in all those who had come before them. And they were able to muster faith that, here in America, they might build a better life and give their children something more."

11 Times Barack Obama Compared Slaves To Immigrants

and believe me, I remember liberals being OUTRAGED over this!
Click to expand...

Thank you for your post. I really wish people would stop picking apart every word that every person who happens to be conservative says. It is such a waste of human space and time. Ben Carson is a man among men. He's a black surgeon and a genius by his own right. That is what should be celebrated. To insult him over this wording is so trivial and I pitty the people who have nothing better to do in their lives but insult a truly GREAT American citizen.
 
EvaPeron said:
Thank you for your post. I really wish people would stop picking apart every word that every person who happens to be conservative says. It is such a waste of human space and time. Ben Carson is a man among men. He's a black surgeon and a genius by his own right. That is what should be celebrated. To insult him over this wording is so trivial and I pitty the people who have nothing better to do in their lives but insult a truly GREAT American citizen.[/QUOTE]

Agreed.
53091708.jpg
Click to expand...
 
Oh please. If you are kidnapped, sex-trafficked to Mexico, and shot NOBODY here would say you "emigrated" and NOBODY there would say you "immigrated."


They would say you were kidnapped, sex-trafficked to Mexico, and shot, because ****ing DUH.




You know that. I know that. Everyone knows that. So can we please all just shut the flaming **** up about this?

The reason Ben Carson was wrong is that he called them immigrants, full stop, and went on to opine about their hopes and dreams for life in America. Their hopes and dreams were "gee, I hope I don't get beaten to death today". It was a stupid thing to say. They weren't like any other sort of person one means to refer to with the word "immigrant."

We should all have been able to agree on that and move on. Instead we've got multiple threads fighting over whether or not voluntariness is necessary to the term "immigrate", and now multiple threads saying "oh yeah, well, it's Obama's fault because he did it too" (nevermind that he at least had the sense to stress that they were brought here against their will), then further fighting about whether Carson or Obama used equivalent context around the word "immigrant."







F.F.S.
 
Mr Person said:
Oh please. If you are kidnapped, sex-trafficked to Mexico, and shot NOBODY here would say you "emigrated" and NOBODY there would say you "immigrated."


They would say you were kidnapped, sex-trafficked to Mexico, and shot, because ****ing DUH.




You know that. I know that. Everyone knows that. So can we please all just shut the flaming **** up about this?

The reason Ben Carson was wrong is that he called them immigrants, full stop, and went on to opine about their hopes and dreams for life in America. Their hopes and dreams were "gee, I hope I don't get beaten to death today". It was a stupid thing to say. They weren't like any other sort of person one means to refer to with the word "immigrant."

We should all have been able to agree on that and move on. Instead we've got multiple threads fighting over whether or not voluntariness is necessary to the term "immigrate", and now multiple threads saying "oh yeah, well, it's Obama's fault because he did it too" (nevermind that he at least had the sense to stress that they were brought here against their will), then further fighting about whether Carson or Obama used equivalent context around the word "immigrant."







F.F.S.
Click to expand...
Ben Carson mentioned that they were brought here on slave ships. I'm pretty sure he ( and everybody else with half a brain ) knows that means it was against their will.And I'm glad you know what the hopes and dreams of slaves were. I don't, but I'm going to take a wild guess and say some did hope things would be better for their sons and daughters. And guess what - in some cases they did.
 
KLATTU said:
{sigh] . No neither one said anything wrong or stupid . That's the point. People don't always formulate their sentences in perfect ways.
Click to expand...

And Secretary Carson, who I have always greatly admired, admitted he made a mistake. It doesn't make him a bad person. He is an honorable, intelligent, decent man who made a poor choice of words. But that has nothing at all to do with President Obama.
 
KLATTU said:
It's directed at the misguided outrage by liberals. ".... Can you IMAGINE being so stupid as to refer to slaves as immigrants? "
Click to expand...

Can you indeed? To mischaracterise people kidnapped against their will, sold and taken to a foreign land in appalling (unsurvivable for many) conditions, is frankly ludicrous.
 
Again, much ado about nothing.

Too many people looking too hard for something to whine about.
 
They probably should have been called refugees.

Most never had a reliable three square meals a day until they got to America.
 
Manc Skipper said:
Can you indeed? To mischaracterise people kidnapped against their will, sold and taken to a foreign land in appalling (unsurvivable for many) conditions, is frankly ludicrous.
Click to expand...

Who did that?

Obama?
 
Mr Person said:
Oh please. If you are kidnapped, sex-trafficked to Mexico, and shot NOBODY here would say you "emigrated" and NOBODY there would say you "immigrated."


They would say you were kidnapped, sex-trafficked to Mexico, and shot, because ****ing DUH.
Click to expand...

We're talking about immigration and not kidnapping, being shot - or sex trafficked to Mexico, where ever in the hell that came from. Nobody disputes that the slaves were forced to come here.




You know that. I know that. Everyone knows that. So can we please all just shut the flaming **** up about this?
Click to expand...

Are you perhaps getting a little hyperbolic in your characterizations? I think so.

The reason Ben Carson was wrong is that he called them immigrants, full stop, and went on to opine about their hopes and dreams for life in America. Their hopes and dreams were "gee, I hope I don't get beaten to death today". It was a stupid thing to say. They weren't like any other sort of person one means to refer to with the word "immigrant."
Click to expand...

So it was fine for Obama to say essentially the same thing, but not fine for Carson to. Could you possibly be a little more partisan?

We should all have been able to agree on that and move on. Instead we've got multiple threads fighting over whether or not voluntariness is necessary to the term "immigrate", and now multiple threads saying "oh yeah, well, it's Obama's fault because he did it too" (nevermind that he at least had the sense to stress that they were brought here against their will), then further fighting about whether Carson or Obama used equivalent context around the word "immigrant."
Click to expand...

Uh huh. Nobody disputes that the slaves were brought against their will. They were still immigrants, and crying about including them as immigrants is disingenuous in the extreme. If you happened to be here because of a shipwreck, you're still an immigrant.
Click to expand...
 
Ontologuy said:
The phrase "forced immigration" to describe abduction is like phrasing "forced sex" to describe rape -- the kidnap victim isn't "immigrating" and neither is the violently assaulted woman "having sex".
Click to expand...

Immigration whether forced or chosen is still immigration.

The definition of "immigration" is "the action of coming to live permanently in a foreign country". The word "coming" means the immigrant made a decision to immigrate.
Click to expand...

"Coming" means "choice"? That's a new one. So if I go to live by the next watering hole because this one dried up means I've made a choice? Some choice - I've made a choice to live and not die.

Kidnap victims abducted into slave ships made no such decision -- their abduction, kidnapping and importation was against their will; they were brought to America, they did not come of their own free will. Thus they simply were not immigrants.

They were captives trafficked to America as property. They were never immigrants.
Click to expand...

Immigration at gun point is still immigration.

Many died here, never having been immigrants. Those who managed to survive, they had children, and their children had children .. and when they were liberated by the Civil War, they were declared naturalized citizens and those who were abducted and their ancestors were given the freedom to return home.
Click to expand...

Yes, conditions were deplorable for many, but they were still immigrants. Understand, the conditions by which they got here or how they were treated when they arrived doesn't mean they weren't immigrants. It means they were forced and treated horribly, but nonetheless immigrants.

None of them were ever immigrants.
Click to expand...

All of them were. The only people here who aren't immigrants are Native Americans, and if we go back far enough in history, they probably are too.

Obama and Carson and those who spin so egregiously erroneously embarrass themselves greatly but that does not mean they have so sacrificed their integrity to the degree that they get to rewrite the meaning of English words as compensation.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

If you practice what you're preaching, we'll probably arrive at some understanding.
 
Vox said:
They probably should have been called refugees.

Most never had a reliable three square meals a day until they got to America.
Click to expand...

That's where you are absolutely wrong.

It is the "White Man's" story that he brough all these slaves out of destitution, but the truth is not in that.

Much of Africa was, especially the coast and valley areas well established communities at least as well advanced as American "indians".

In any event it is shameful to de-sensitize abduction that separates families, reduces the person to animal status by suggesting they were in any way better off.

For as much as Americans talk about race and slavery, they sure as **** don't know squat when it comes to the truth of the situation.
 
tres borrachos said:
I already said in the many other threads on this subject that I'm a great admirer of Doctor Carson - always have been and always will be. Of course you wouldn't know that because everything is "You're a big meanie to the great Donald Trump!".

I think this was a very poor choice of words on Doctor Carson's part and apparently he thinks so as well since he spent the next 24 hours trying to clarify and restate and rephrase them. He meant nothing malicious by them in my opinion, and he remains the decent and honorable man I always believed him to be, which I also said repeatedly yesterday.

And "Obama did it too!" is about the weakest argument anyone can make.

But go on playing the victim and Trump protector.
Click to expand...


I'm not big on the guy. But, I have been around and traveling with politicians when they put their foot in it. As soon as I read about it I wa reminded of a Canadian provincial politician who I knew had not one racist bone in his body. Tired after a long day on the road, dealing with people face to face and speeches to small groups, he closed the day by saying Canada's natives were 'better off" with white people.

Many times before he had spoken about forgiveness, working together and always stressing that whites learned a lot from natives and vice versa...a them about recognizing the value of the human as opposed to the wrapping on the outside.
But that one night he said "better off".

It ended his career, even though native leaders went to bat for him.

As I say, I am not much for "Dr." Carson. The "dr" does not impress me, I know some very stupid doctors. I kind of understand what he is trying to say is that as a result of this 'horror' came opportunity...look at me, I'm a success"! A speech meant for one who can inspire with rhetoric, not a walking text book.

I do think for all his brilliance he is non-linear, a very poor speaker, and because of who is his boss, the current ramped political hostilities it's a coffin nail
 
Fearandloathing said:
That's where you are absolutely wrong.

It is the "White Man's" story that he brough all these slaves out of destitution, but the truth is not in that.

Much of Africa was, especially the coast and valley areas well established communities at least as well advanced as American "indians".

In any event it is shameful to de-sensitize abduction that separates families, reduces the person to animal status by suggesting they were in any way better off.

For as much as Americans talk about race and slavery, they sure as **** don't know squat when it comes to the truth of the situation.
Click to expand...

As advanced as American "Indians?"

You realize that a lot of those "Indians" weren't getting a reliable three square meals a day either, right?

You also realize that famine is devastating large areas in Africa right now? Much of Africa has always teetered on the brink of disaster and starvation.

While some African tribes were successful, many were struggling and some were failing and being wiped out by others. Even a little reading on that time period in Africa will reveal this.

It was rarely the strong tribes that were victimized by slavers.......indeed, some of them actually assisted the slavers in catching those of the weak tribes or even captured them for the slavers and sold them to the slavers.

As I said, this harassment of Carson is stupid and is indeed, an attempt to make something out of nothing.
 
Last edited:
Vox said:
As advanced as American "Indians?"

You realize that a lot of those "Indians" weren't getting a reliable three square meals a day either, right?

You also realize that famine is devastating large areas in Africa right now? Much of Africa has always teetered on the brink of disaster and starvation.

While some African tribes were successful, many were struggling and some were failing and being wiped out by others. Even a little reading on that time period in Africa will reveal this.

It was rarely the strong tribes that were victimized by slavers.......indeed, some of them actually assisted the slavers in catching those of the weak tribes or even captured them for the slavers and sold them to the slavers.

As I said, this harassment of Carson is stupid and is indeed, an attempt to make something out of nothing.
Click to expand...




AH, who **** in your cereal.

Let's start with you showing me in some form of historical means that the Incas were starving at the height of their empire. Incas had invented the circular screw, something the Romans did not Don't like Incas? How about Aztec's, Hopi.

You've watched too many cowboy movies.
 
humbolt said:
We're talking about immigration and not kidnapping
Click to expand...

Slaves weren't kidnapped by someone?

What kind of fresh horse**** is that?



I really don't understand the motive to defend Carson on this. It shouldn't have been an issue, until the knee-jerk and resolute defense of Carson made it one.
 
Mr Person said:
Slaves weren't kidnapped by someone?

What kind of fresh horse**** is that?
Click to expand...

Of course they were. They still ended up immigrants. They weren't taken and hidden somewhere for ransom. They were forcibly moved to a new land - an entirely new continent.



I really don't understand the motive to defend Carson on this. It shouldn't have been an issue, until the knee-jerk and resolute defense of Carson made it one.
Click to expand...

I really don't understand the motive to denigrate Carson over this, myself. It wouldn't have been an issue at all had the left not gone all hypocritical on it, which is precisely what denying the comparison to Obama is. Hypocrisy at it's finest. By all means carry on with it though. It still doesn't mean that today's blacks in this country aren't the descendants of immigrants. They are. If you happened to become shipwrecked here 400 years ago and remained because you had no way to return to your native country, you're still an immigrant.
 
tres borrachos said:
So was Obama stupid and therefore Carson is too? Or was Obama smart and therefore Carson is too?
Click to expand...
It was irrelevant when both Obama and Carson said it, but some people are choosing to make Carson's words an issue, while hypocritically ignoring/rationalizing Obama saying the same ****ing thing.
 
humbolt said:
Of course they were. They still ended up immigrants. They weren't taken and hidden somewhere for ransom. They were forcibly moved to a new land - an entirely new continent.

I really don't understand the motive to denigrate Carson over this, myself. It wouldn't have been an issue at all had the left not gone all hypocritical on it, which is precisely what denying the comparison to Obama is. Hypocrisy at it's finest. By all means carry on with it though. It still doesn't mean that today's blacks in this country aren't the descendants of immigrants. They are. If you happened to become shipwrecked here 400 years ago and remained because you had no way to return to your native country, you're still an immigrant.
Click to expand...

I didn't see much denigration. What I saw was a bunch of people going "errr...wtf?" and then a bunch of other people going "you stupid PC liberal ******s! If we ignore the sense and use of a word, "immigrant" is technically correct because google doesn't include "voluntary" in its definition!"

It became an issue only because it was argued about.





In other contexts, this is the kind of argument people cite in order to rag on lawyers. It's an "it depends on what the definition of "is" is" kind of defense.

Maybe it's suited for a journal on the philosophy of language, but give me a damn break. Someone sex-trafficks your wife to Mexico and kills her, we all know you wouldn't say she "immigrated." None of you would. You know it, I know it, and the rest is anonymous words on the internet.
 
Mr Person said:
I didn't see much denigration. What I saw was a bunch of people going "errr...wtf?" and then a bunch of other people going "you stupid PC liberal ******s! If we ignore the sense and use of a word, "immigrant" is technically correct because google doesn't include "voluntary" in its definition!"

It became an issue only because it was argued about.
Click to expand...

I really don't know the genesis of the problem here. I only know it's a silly point of contention. I know, as I mentioned in the preceding example I mentioned of a shipwreck survivor, voluntary doesn't enter into that equation either.





In other contexts, this is the kind of argument people cite in order to rag on lawyers. It's an "it depends on what the definition of "is" is" kind of defense.

Maybe it's suited for a journal on the philosophy of language, but give me a damn break. Someone sex-trafficks your wife to Mexico and kills her, we all know you wouldn't say she "immigrated." None of you would. You know it, I know it, and the rest is anonymous words on the internet.
Click to expand...

Yes, I think we can all agree that slavery is reprehensible. There is a proper time and circumstance in which we should look at every word spoken and the context and connotation conveyed. This isn't one of those times. I can't believe Carson meant to minimize anything surrounding how blacks were brought to this country and thus I don't believe he misspoke.
 
humbolt said:
Yes, I think we can all agree that slavery is reprehensible. There is a proper time and circumstance in which we should look at every word spoken and the context and connotation conveyed. This isn't one of those times. I can't believe Carson meant to minimize anything surrounding how blacks were brought to this country and thus I don't believe he misspoke.
Click to expand...

Well, nobody intends a mistake.

People don't seem to be arguing about whether or not he actually meant to denigrate anyone. People are arguing about whether or not it was a mistaken use of the term. That is why it is so absurd.




No matter what a person posts on the internet, I cannot believe that if that person's spouse was forcibly dragged to another country and was killed, that person would say that their spouse "emigrated."
 
Mr Person said:
Well, nobody intends a mistake.

People don't seem to be arguing about whether or not he actually meant to denigrate anyone. People are arguing about whether or not it was a mistaken use of the term. That is why it is so absurd.
Click to expand...

Terms are misused all the time by everybody. Grammer is atrocious. I'm guilty myself, and I have a masters in comparative literature. I concluded long ago that as long as the intent is clear, all is forgiven in general discussion. In technical matters such isn't the case.




No matter what a person posts on the internet, I cannot believe that if that person's spouse was forcibly dragged to another country and was killed, that person would say that their spouse "emigrated."
Click to expand...

I agree that slavery is extreme, but I don't find such events comparable. Maybe it's because we don't live in a country that allows slavery anymore, and I'm secure with the knowledge all humans in this country can enjoy the rights we ascribe to all humans everywhere. We might not do a great job of it at times, but we're trying.
 
Moon said:
It was irrelevant when both Obama and Carson said it, but some people are choosing to make Carson's words an issue, while hypocritically ignoring/rationalizing Obama saying the same ****ing thing.
Click to expand...

So in other words, Obama is as smart as Carson? Or Carson is as dumb as Obama?
 
How embarrassing for him and the idiots who think like him ... :lamo
 
tres borrachos said:
So in other words, Obama is as smart as Carson? Or Carson is as dumb as Obama?
Click to expand...
Who said anything about one being as smart or dumb as the other? This is an issue of team politics hypocrisy, nothing more.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom