Trump most business friendly President since the founding fathers

MaggieD said:

That's what the BOEING CEO said this morning after Trump's meeting with 25 titans of industry in a round table about jobs for Americans.

He went on to say that the POTUS understands the burden of needless regulation... of having to go through a half- dozen bureaucratic bodies to build a factory. And how businesses today have opted to build their new factories in other countries who roll out the red carpet instead of red tape.

PS...The carrier CEO said their sales are up considerably since the news came out they were saving 800 jobs thru Trump's initiative. He chalked the increased sales up to patriotism.


I don't have a link. With media bias we see, I doubt it would be reported so optimistically. I got this information by watching the live interviews and round table introductions.

Your thoughts?

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I can buy this. He's certainly taking a more domestic business friendly route than his recent predecessors.

MaggieD said:

He went on to say that the POTUS understands the burden of needless regulation... of having to go through a half- dozen bureaucratic bodies to build a factory. And how businesses today have opted to build their new factories in other countries who roll out the red carpet instead of red tape.

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I mean yea! Child labor, $1 a day wages, no environmental regulation, little workplace safety laws, no building inspections or regulations, its so ****ing great!

TheDemSocialist said:

I mean yea! Child labor, $1 a day wages, no environmental regulation, little workplace safety laws, no building inspections or regulations, its so ****ing great!

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So you're saying that when a major corporation builds a plant overseas they are fire traps, exploit children, pollute drinking water etc? Got any proof?

MaggieD said:

So you're saying that when a major corporation builds a plant overseas they are fire traps, exploit children, pollute drinking water etc? Got any proof?

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Got any proof of major corporations building plants overseas or using plants overseas that engage in many of these practices (Child labor, $1 a day wages, no environmental regulation, little workplace safety laws, no building inspections or regulations)... Uhhh ****ing yea.

"The 2013 Savar building collapse or Rana Plaza collapse was a structural failure that occurred on Wednesday, 24 April 2013 in the Savar Upazila of Dhaka, Bangladesh, where an eight-story commercial building named Rana Plaza collapsed. The search for the dead ended on 13 May 2013 with a death toll of 1,129.[2] Approximately 2,500 injured people were rescued from the building alive.[4] It is considered the deadliest garment-factory accident in history, as well as the deadliest accidental structural failure in modern human history.[5][6]
The building contained clothing factories, a bank, apartments, and several shops. The shops and the bank on the lower floors immediately closed after cracks were discovered in the building.[7][8][9] The building's owners ignored warnings to avoid using the building after cracks had appeared the day before. Garment workers were ordered to return the following day, and the building collapsed during the morning rush-hour.
The factories manufactured apparel for brands including Benetton,[13] Bonmarché,[14] the Children's Place,[10] El Corte Inglés,[15] Joe Fresh,[13] Monsoon Accessorize,[16] Mango,[17] Matalan,[17][18] Primark,[19] and Walmart." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Savar_building_collapse


http://www.globallabourrights.org/reports/document/1310-IGLHR-GapOldNavyinBangladesh.pdf

"The world's richest countries are increasingly outsourcing their carbon pollution to China and other rising economies, according to a draft UN report.
The problem stems from electronic devices such as smartphones, cheap clothes and other goods being made in China and other rising economies but consumed in the US and Europe."
Rich nations outsourcing pollution to China, says UN report | South China Morning Post

"Gruelling workloads, humiliating punishments and battery-farm living conditions remain routine for workers assembling Apple's luxury electronics, according to one of the most detailed reports yet on life inside China's Foxconn factories.
The researchers claim that intimidation, exhaustion and labour rights violations "remain the norm" for the hundreds of thousands of Chinese iPhone workers, despite Apple redoubling its efforts to improve conditions.
Interviews with 170 workers and supervisors at Foxconn factories in the cities of Shenzhen and Zhengzhou from March to May this year found that punishments remain a key management tool.
The report, by the Hong Kong workers' rights group Students and Scholars Against Corporate Misbehaviour (Sacom), says workers at the world's 10th largest employer have been told to clean toilets, sweep lawns and write "confession letters", which are then pinned up on noticeboards or read out to colleagues.
Living conditions in Foxconn campus dormitories remain cramped, with 20 or 30 workers sharing three-bedroom flats, sleeping eight to a room in bunkbeds.
They are forbidden to use power-hungry electrical items such as kettles or laptops on pain of confiscation, says Sacom, which published the study to coincide with Foxconn's annual general meeting in Hong Kong on Thursday.
Where most assembly staff were previously forced to stand, stools have now been introduced for some workers. However, they are under instructions to sit on only a third of the seat, so that they remain "nimble" enough to do the work." https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2012/may/30/foxconn-abuses-despite-apple-reforms

tres borrachos said:

I honestly haven't shopped there since my kids were real little and in diapers. That's all I ever really bought there so I have to admit I never saw the banners, or didn't notice them anyway.

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When the "Ole man" was alive, the banners were hanging down from the rafters everywhere. He really believed in America and the products that were built here. Once he died, the kids brought in a "Mainstream" CEO and all of the changed.

TheDemSocialist said:

Got any proof of major corporations building plants overseas or using plants overseas that engage in many of these practices (Child labor, $1 a day wages, no environmental regulation, little workplace safety laws, no building inspections or regulations)... Uhhh ****ing yea.

"The 2013 Savar building collapse or Rana Plaza collapse was a structural failure that occurred on Wednesday, 24 April 2013 in the Savar Upazila of Dhaka, Bangladesh, where an eight-story commercial building named Rana Plaza collapsed. The search for the dead ended on 13 May 2013 with a death toll of 1,129.[2] Approximately 2,500 injured people were rescued from the building alive.[4] It is considered the deadliest garment-factory accident in history, as well as the deadliest accidental structural failure in modern human history.[5][6]
The building contained clothing factories, a bank, apartments, and several shops. The shops and the bank on the lower floors immediately closed after cracks were discovered in the building.[7][8][9] The building's owners ignored warnings to avoid using the building after cracks had appeared the day before. Garment workers were ordered to return the following day, and the building collapsed during the morning rush-hour.
The factories manufactured apparel for brands including Benetton,[13] Bonmarché,[14] the Children's Place,[10] El Corte Inglés,[15] Joe Fresh,[13] Monsoon Accessorize,[16] Mango,[17] Matalan,[17][18] Primark,[19] and Walmart." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Savar_building_collapse

http://www.globallabourrights.org/reports/document/1310-IGLHR-GapOldNavyinBangladesh.pdf

"The world's richest countries are increasingly outsourcing their carbon pollution to China and other rising economies, according to a draft UN report.
The problem stems from electronic devices such as smartphones, cheap clothes and other goods being made in China and other rising economies but consumed in the US and Europe."
Rich nations outsourcing pollution to China, says UN report | South China Morning Post

"Gruelling workloads, humiliating punishments and battery-farm living conditions remain routine for workers assembling Apple's luxury electronics, according to one of the most detailed reports yet on life inside China's Foxconn factories.
The researchers claim that intimidation, exhaustion and labour rights violations "remain the norm" for the hundreds of thousands of Chinese iPhone workers, despite Apple redoubling its efforts to improve conditions.
Interviews with 170 workers and supervisors at Foxconn factories in the cities of Shenzhen and Zhengzhou from March to May this year found that punishments remain a key management tool.
The report, by the Hong Kong workers' rights group Students and Scholars Against Corporate Misbehaviour (Sacom), says workers at the world's 10th largest employer have been told to clean toilets, sweep lawns and write "confession letters", which are then pinned up on noticeboards or read out to colleagues.
Living conditions in Foxconn campus dormitories remain cramped, with 20 or 30 workers sharing three-bedroom flats, sleeping eight to a room in bunkbeds.
They are forbidden to use power-hungry electrical items such as kettles or laptops on pain of confiscation, says Sacom, which published the study to coincide with Foxconn's annual general meeting in Hong Kong on Thursday.
Where most assembly staff were previously forced to stand, stools have now been introduced for some workers. However, they are under instructions to sit on only a third of the seat, so that they remain "nimble" enough to do the work." https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2012/may/30/foxconn-abuses-despite-apple-reforms

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You went to an extraordinary amount of work to compile this information. Thank you very much.

I looked up Foxcon, and it appears to be a Taiwanese company. I don't recognize any of the others. It appears that Gap and Old Navy outsource which is where Trump's tax will come in if he can get it done. Also appears that Apple is the same. I'm not seeing that any of these are built by major corporations.

I remember Union Carbide, I think, building a hell hole that seriously contaminated an overseas location. India? But that was years ago.

Thank you for this information. It's very sad.

The tax Trump is promising makes good sense to me. Nike doesn't make one shoe in the United States. New Balance, OTOH, makes all of theirs here. It can be done.

MaggieD said:

You went to an extraordinary amount of work to compile this information. Thank you very much.

I looked up Foxcon, and it appears to be a Taiwanese company. I don't recognize any of the others. It appears that Gap and Old Navy outsource which is where Trump's tax will come in if he can get it done. Also appears that Apple is the same. I'm not seeing that any of these are built by major corporations.

I remember Union Carbide, I think, building a hell hole that seriously contaminated an overseas location. India? But that was years ago.

Thank you for this information. It's very sad.

The tax Trump is promising makes good sense to me. Nike doesn't make one shoe in the United States. New Balance, OTOH, makes all of theirs here. It can be done.

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Unless that tariff is like 500% I doubt it will do anything, you can't compete with those ****ty working conditions, except maybe robots. You will also most likely see all consumer goods increase in price.

Carjosse said:

Unless that tariff is like 500% I doubt it will do anything, you can't compete with those ****ty working conditions, except maybe robots.

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Well, then if the American people want jobs? They're going to have to pay more or become more socially responsible and start buying American again.

MaggieD said:

That's what the BOEING CEO said this morning after Trump's meeting with 25 titans of industry in a round table about jobs for Americans.

He went on to say that the POTUS understands the burden of needless regulation... of having to go through a half- dozen bureaucratic bodies to build a factory. And how businesses today have opted to build their new factories in other countries who roll out the red carpet instead of red tape.

PS...The carrier CEO said their sales are up considerably since the news came out they were saving 800 jobs thru Trump's initiative. He chalked the increased sales up to patriotism.


I don't have a link. With media bias we see, I doubt it would be reported so optimistically. I got this information by watching the live interviews and round table introductions.

Your thoughts?

Click to expand...

My thoughts are that Boeing must be considering moving some plants to other countries and is fishing for some tax breaks or other benefits to keep those jobs here. They probably want a Carrier-style deal (special treatment Pence pushed through to save 1,000 jobs).

You go on to speak about media bias. Why should the media make the big deal out of the fact that a particular CEO said Trump is "business-friendly" anyway?



However, he is wrong that Trump understands "needless regulation." Trump showed that with the EO about eliminating two regulations for every new one promulgated*. This is a problem that can generally be extended to most GOP politicians.

It is true that we have so ****ing many regulations, which are often poorly worded, hard to understand, and useless. (Hell, my economist wife spent a few years at VOLPE, and complained many times about how she'd do a cost-benefit analysis and recommend not passing a regulation because the costs were great and the benefit absurdly small.........and it would eventually get passed anyway because it felt or sounded good to pass).

The problem is their approach. There's virtually never a surgical approach recommended or taken. The problem is boiled down to twitter-generation proportions: regulation bad! SMASH REGULATION!

Which is stupid because there are good regulations too. Regulations preventing supermarkets from selling you rotten food disguised as fresh food, regulations to stop child labor, regulations to stop manufacturers from selling horribly defective goods, and on and on and on. Now, much of that stuff might indeed eventually be stopped by the so-called "free market", but that's only after a trail of needless damage. It really is better to address certain things with regulations.

And, of course, there are tons of pointlessly costly, stupid, and unnecessary ones. It could take a lifetime to simply read every regulation on the books. So I don't really have any answers myself. One would need an army of people of various backgrounds (law, economy, sociology, etc) to identify the bad ones and fix the good ones that are written poorly. But really, the underlying problem is that we cannot function as a country without administrative agencies (congress simply cannot become experts in every area an agency deals with and then pass laws specifically targeting the problems; they don't really do their job as it is), yet those agencies seem to be exercising legislative power despite being unelected. The Supreme Court long ago came up with some fancy words to distinguish the two, but it never sat well with me.

So I think we need agencies and we need regulations. If we're going to fix this mess, it is going to take a tremendous and honest effort by a lot of people. And somehow my post turned into a mini-treatise, so I'll stop...


...in a moment. Back to the CEO. Of course, a CEO is going to want to have less regulation. No matter whether a given regulation is good or bad for the people, passes a reasonable cost-benefit analysis, etc., businesses want less regulations because regulations are a pain in any case. So I cannot take that portion of his statement, even with a grain of salt.







*I haven't read the EO, but I do hope he considered the possibility that agencies would simply merge two regulations together and call it the elimination of one regulation....

Mr Person said:

My thoughts are that Boeing must be considering moving some plants to other countries and is fishing for some tax breaks or other benefits to keep those jobs here. They probably want a Carrier-style deal (special treatment Pence pushed through to save 1,000 jobs).

You go on to speak about media bias. Why should the media make the big deal out of the fact that a particular CEO said Trump is "business-friendly" anyway?

However, he is wrong that Trump understands "needless regulation." Trump showed that with the EO about eliminating two regulations for every new one promulgated*. This is a problem that can generally be extended to most GOP politicians.

It is true that we have so ****ing many regulations, which are often poorly worded, hard to understand, and useless. (Hell, my economist wife spent a few years at VOLPE, and complained many times about how she'd do a cost-benefit analysis and recommend not passing a regulation because the costs were great and the benefit absurdly small.........and it would eventually get passed anyway because it felt or sounded good to pass).

The problem is their approach. There's virtually never a surgical approach recommended or taken. The problem is boiled down to twitter-generation proportions: regulation bad! SMASH REGULATION!

Which is stupid because there are good regulations too. Regulations preventing supermarkets from selling you rotten food disguised as fresh food, regulations to stop child labor, regulations to stop manufacturers from selling horribly defective goods, and on and on and on. Now, much of that stuff might indeed eventually be stopped by the so-called "free market", but that's only after a trail of needless damage. It really is better to address certain things with regulations.

And, of course, there are tons of pointlessly costly, stupid, and unnecessary ones. It could take a lifetime to simply read every regulation on the books. So I don't really have any answers myself. One would need an army of people of various backgrounds (law, economy, sociology, etc) to identify the bad ones and fix the good ones that are written poorly. But really, the underlying problem is that we cannot function as a country without administrative agencies (congress simply cannot become experts in every area an agency deals with and then pass laws specifically targeting the problems; they don't really do their job as it is), yet those agencies seem to be exercising legislative power despite being unelected. The Supreme Court long ago came up with some fancy words to distinguish the two, but it never sat well with me.

So I think we need agencies and we need regulations. If we're going to fix this mess, it is going to take a tremendous and honest effort by a lot of people. And somehow my post turned into a mini-treatise, so I'll stop...


...in a moment. Back to the CEO. Of course, a CEO is going to want to have less regulation. No matter whether a given regulation is good or bad for the people, passes a reasonable cost-benefit analysis, etc., businesses want less regulations because regulations are a pain in any case. So I cannot take that portion of his statement, even with a grain of salt.







*I haven't read the EO, but I do hope he considered the possibility that agencies would simply merge two regulations together and call it the elimination of one regulation....

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No, great post. Thank you.

I hardly want to tell you I was mistaken. It wasn't Boeing, it was Dow Chemical. I posted a correction, but it's a ways back. My bad.

Re: 45 most business friendly President since the founding fathers

SmokeAndMirrors said:

It's not that we can't. It's that we have to do it with some basic consideration for the well-being of the citizens who live there. And no, we shouldn't reduce regulations. Even the regulations we have now aren't enough to stop these problems. America is already plenty "business friendly." It's the biggest economy on earth and home to many of the richest people on earth. This idea that business is fleeing America is just absurd scare-mongering propaganda pushed by billionaires who won't be happy until they have people working for free.

Why should we be willing to kill our poor just so a CEO can make a few extra pennies? Is that all that millions of Americans are worth?

There's no conflict. Just do it well, rather than forcing this false dichotomy between doing it badly and not doing it at all.

But beyond that, manufacturing jobs are not the future for any developed nation. It's a waste of time to spend our energy on it.

Manufacturing is automating, and that's good for everyone, CEO's and workers alike. They weren't desirable jobs anyway. They've always been low-paid, dangerous, and bad for health. It's GOOD that they're automating. And in another 10 or 20 years, most of these jobs won't require any human involvement at all.

The only problem is that our economy is refusing to adapt to this reality. Automation is not a problem. Abandoning the infrastructure of formerly industry-based communities is the problem.

Automation is great. Conceivably, that frees up a bunch of people who used to have poor prospects to do work that serves their own human needs better. That gives us the opportunity as a society to focus more on human happiness and accomplishment, because we don't require people to work long and low-paid hours anymore. And that's desperately needed; weirdly enough, people in the developed world have more isolation and mental illness than just about anywhere, and America is suffering from that even worse than most. Americans now work more hours than the Japanese, well beyond what we know to be the healthy limit, and even young people are starting to suffer from stress-related diseases.

We're long overdue for a post-industrial social renaissance, and we absolutely have the economic ability to have one. Technology means that living with this sort of lifestyle is completely unnecessary. Furthermore, it's economically stupid to keep going like this. You can only pad your economy with business majors who do nothing but push papers around for so long.

The problem is not that the manufacturing jobs are disappearing. The problem is that our economy is refusing to modernize because the powers that be just can't stand the idea of the hoi polloi not having to beg for their scraps the way they did in the industrial age.

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America is already business friendly? Have you owned a mid-sized business, or run one from an administrative position? I deal with it daily. The Administrative burden is astounding. Taxes, reporting, the PPACA reporting requirements, permits and inspections, licensing, the record keeping... all the things a consumer doesn't see. No, America is not currently 'business friendly'.

So, if manufacturing jobs are 'not the future of any developed nation', exactly how do you intend on clothing yourself? A vehicle to drive? a basket to cart your personal belongings, since manufacturing also has a hand in home construction? Equipment to maintain the infrastructure, plow the snow off the roads? I don't think you comprehend the enormity of what you said. Since you also don't want to see children of foreign lands to be exposed to toxins and get sick and die, where do you suggest all these goods come from?

And this automation of which you speak. Exactly where do you think those machines come from? What are they made of? Who fuels them, maintains them? Who creates the replacement parts when something breaks?

You automatically make an assumption that a CEO is 'willing to kill our poor just so a CEO can make a few extra pennies'. Seriously, such drama is not necessary, nor is it necessarily true. Are there some out there who only see the money? Yes there are, but they are more few and far between than you would admit.

Just to push it a bit further, food for your thought, that those extra pennies you speak of.... fuel the retirement funds of the teachers, the firemen, the middle class workers....

You seem to want it both ways... a prosperous society, who work little, with little to no manufacturing, and what there might be must be done on a strict adherence overseen by an agency that attempts to claim dominion on PRIVATE PROPERTY. And you don't see a problem with all of this.

A true society is a balance between the material needs, and the maintaining of the environment.

Social renaissance? Isn't that what Friday and Saturday nights are for?

MaggieD said:

Well, then if the American people want jobs? They're going to have to pay more or become more socially responsible and start buying American again.

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Or realize that America has moved on from a manufacturing based economy.

Carjosse said:

Or realize that America has moved on from a manufacturing based economy.

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Then we're going to have to find good jobs for people who, for one reason or another, aren't suited for a service or tech economy.

Re: 45 most business friendly President since the founding fathers

GottaGo said:

America is already business friendly? Have you owned a mid-sized business, or run one from an administrative position? I deal with it daily. The Administrative burden is astounding. Taxes, reporting, the PPACA reporting requirements, permits and inspections, licensing, the record keeping... all the things a consumer doesn't see. No, America is not currently 'business friendly'... (clipped for length)

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Do you think other places in the world don't have those things, and in many cases even more?

Yeah, running a large business is work. And?

Machines will be mostly capable of doing all of those things quite soon, and in some cases they already can. I suspect stuff like construction is still a ways away from being automated, but yeah, most of those things will be no problem in the near future. We already have fully automated warehouses, dude.

There's no reason we can't build these facilities in a way that doesn't cause people to get sick and die. The reason we don't is because some places don't have any regulations telling them that we have to, and corporations don't care. It's that simple.

A lot of that stuff, re: maintaining automation, is actually about engineering. I mean, if our machines can build an entire car (and yes, we're getting close to that), you obviously don't need human manufacturers to make replacement cogs for another machine. You just need an engineer to design it, and probably some repair people to fix it as need be.

It's not drama. It's exactly what's happening in places like China, and it's exactly what was happening in America. I mean, do you know what the life expectancy of factory laborers was before regulations? Abysmal. People dying of lung disease in their 30's and 40's in some cases. And with some of the stuff we make now, like certain computer parts, unregulated exposure can kill you even faster. Like I said, kids dying before their teens.

CEO's have been perfectly happy to continue killing people this way. They've gone out of their way to find places that don't mind if they kill people through negligent businesses practices, or pay them next to nothing. That's the entire point of outsourcing. There's literally no other reason to do it. So it's not an assumption. It's exactly what they're doing.

They don't fuel anyone's retirement fund, because those people are losing their retirements at a startling rate. This is trickle-down bull**** at its finest, and it's an absolute lie. Hell, half of these CEO's don't even pay any taxes. And for your information, their tax rates were twice as high in America's best economic years in the mid-20th century. If you'd told a 1950's Republican that we now tax some of the mega-rich less than 25%, and a lot of the time they don't even pay that much, he would have keeled over of a heart attack. Back then, the tax rate was in excess of 50%. And yet America was leading the world economically. Gee, what a mystery! I thought taxing business owners was supposed to be a sin akin to genocide!

There's no problem with it because the "work week," pay rates, and even money itself are just fiat. They don't exist, dude. They're not real. We can do whatever we want with them.

Technology results in us having to completely reformat our fiat economies on an occasional basis. And we are coming up on one of those occurrences now, with the the advent of automation, just like we did in the industrial revolution with the advent of manufacturing.

Here's the reality: it's going to happen whether you like it or not. Those manufacturing jobs are going to disappear, because it makes better fiscal sense to automate them. There is NOTHING you can do about that.

So then it just becomes a question of whether you want to just leave the rest of the system how it is and condemn millions of people to destitution and starvation, or whether you want to adapt the system for that new reality.

I think the latter is a better solution. And I honestly don't give a **** if it makes some trust fund babies have a pout.

Its not just international markets. Businesses have abandoned states that have continued to heap the burden for their failed policies onto the backs of businesses for states with more favorable tax environments. Those moves involve jobs...and jobs are SO MUCH more valuable to the states than corporate taxes.

MaggieD said:

Then we're going to have to find good jobs for people who, for one reason or another, aren't suited for a service or tech economy.

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That is a problem, but insane tariffs and skyrocketing consumer prices in a hopeless attempt to bring jobs back is not the answer. It is like trying to burn your house to get rid of house fly.

Carjosse said:

Which is odd because Carrier's parent company is at odds with with Trump over foreign plants.

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This guy is also at odds with Trump over foreign plants.

Carjosse said:

That is a problem, but insane tariffs and skyrocketing consumer prices are not the answer.

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You know, that's an argument many use to argue for illegals. We need them to keep our cauliflower cheap. Our grass cutting cheap. Our cleaning lady cheap, etc. We just may have to pay more to provide jobs for our fellow Americans. And those manufacturers who choose to mfgr. overseas may just have to earn less money for their shareholders.

Brewdog said:

This guy is also at odds with Trump over foreign plants.

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Gotta support the local small businessman.

Re: 45 most business friendly President since the founding fathers

SmokeAndMirrors said:

Do you think other places in the world don't have those things, and in many cases even more?

Yeah, running a large business is work. And?

Machines will be mostly capable of doing all of those things quite soon, and in some cases they already can. I suspect stuff like construction is still a ways away from being automated, but yeah, most of those things will be no problem in the near future. We already have fully automated warehouses, dude.

There's no reason we can't build these facilities in a way that doesn't cause people to get sick and die. The reason we don't is because some places don't have any regulations telling them that we have to, and corporations don't care. It's that simple.

A lot of that stuff, re: maintaining automation, is actually about engineering. I mean, if our machines can build an entire car (and yes, we're getting close to that), you obviously don't need human manufacturers to make replacement cogs for another machine. You just need an engineer to design it, and probably some repair people to fix it as need be.

It's not drama. It's exactly what's happening in places like China, and it's exactly what was happening in America. I mean, do you know what the life expectancy of factory laborers was before regulations? Abysmal. People dying of lung disease in their 30's and 40's in some cases. And with some of the stuff we make now, like certain computer parts, unregulated exposure can kill you even faster. Like I said, kids dying before their teens.

CEO's have been perfectly happy to continue killing people this way. They've gone out of their way to find places that don't mind if they kill people through negligent businesses practices, or pay them next to nothing. That's the entire point of outsourcing. There's literally no other reason to do it. So it's not an assumption. It's exactly what they're doing.

They don't fuel anyone's retirement fund, because those people are losing their retirements at a startling rate. This is trickle-down bull**** at its finest, and it's an absolute lie. Hell, half of these CEO's don't even pay any taxes. And for your information, their tax rates were twice as high in America's best economic years in the mid-20th century. If you'd told a 1950's Republican that we now tax some of the mega-rich less than 25%, and a lot of the time they don't even pay that much, he would have keeled over of a heart attack. Back then, the tax rate was in excess of 50%. And yet America was leading the world economically. Gee, what a mystery! I thought taxing business owners was supposed to be a sin akin to genocide!

There's no problem with it because the "work week," pay rates, and even money itself are just fiat. They don't exist, dude. They're not real. We can do whatever we want with them.

Technology results in us having to completely reformat our fiat economies on an occasional basis. And we are coming up on one of those occurrences now, with the the advent of automation, just like we did in the industrial revolution with the advent of manufacturing.

Here's the reality: it's going to happen whether you like it or not. Those manufacturing jobs are going to disappear, because it makes better fiscal sense to automate them. There is NOTHING you can do about that.

So then it just becomes a question of whether you want to just leave the rest of the system how it is and condemn millions of people to destitution and starvation, or whether you want to adapt the system for that new reality.

I think the latter is a better solution. And I honestly don't give a **** if it makes some trust fund babies have a pout.

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Since you apparently believe you know it all about business, then no doubt you are absolutely correct.

Automation will come, some things are already done with full automation. But many things aren't nor will ever be, unless you plan on not eating meat, veggies or dairy.

No one is talking about 'trust fund babies', though it makes for good drama. I've been talking about the average person, which you have lost grip on.

What do you plan for the less then stellar person who isn't geared towards a service or tech job, but still fully capable to work? The person who needs a little extra cash in addition to the income from his service or tech job?

There's no problem with it because the "work week," pay rates, and even money itself are just fiat. They don't exist, dude. They're not real. We can do whatever we want with them.

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I have absolutely no idea what you are saying here. I unfortunately get the idea that you are thinking far beyond your natural life span.

Re: 45 most business friendly President since the founding fathers

It doesn't matter how good for America Trump is or how much good he does for Americans.....many on the left are simply haters of freedom and haters of America.

What I want to know is why there are so may haters in this great country? So many like Bruce A.H. Springsteen.

Carjosse said:

That is a problem, but insane tariffs and skyrocketing consumer prices in a hopeless attempt to bring jobs back is not the answer. It is like trying to burn your house to get rid of house fly.

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I hate to tell you, but my partner and I saw grocery and clothing prices soaring under Obama

As far as tariffs, those are mostly aimed at dealing with China which is a totally hedonistic, self-interested bully nation.....do nothing and they will dominate eventually.

Re: 45 most business friendly President since the founding fathers

GottaGo said:

Since you apparently believe you know it all about business, then no doubt you are absolutely correct.

Automation will come, some things are already done with full automation. But many things aren't nor will ever be, unless you plan on not eating meat, veggies or dairy.

No one is talking about 'trust fund babies', though it makes for good drama. I've been talking about the average person, which you have lost grip on.

What do you plan for the less then stellar person who isn't geared towards a service or tech job, but still fully capable to work? The person who needs a little extra cash in addition to the income from his service or tech job?

I have absolutely no idea what you are saying here. I unfortunately get the idea that you are thinking far beyond your natural life span.

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Actually we can grow meat in a lab now, and it will be hitting the market in the next couple years. You were saying? :lol:

Well, fact is that due to the failure of trickle-down, most rich people in America were born that way, and social mobility has dramatically declined to the point where America is now one of the worst in the developed world. And that's why I don't give a damn about their whining that we're not letting them subjugate the poor enough.

Guy-who-wants-extra-income should do whatever suits him. I mean, do you think that narrow set of mainstream jobs is the only way to live, even now? I haven't been in the mainstream job market in years. There's millions of us, and we're fine. Your head is really stuck in the rut of "things as they are right now, in the particular mode of work that I personally exist in." There's millions of other choices, and if we decide to adjust to automation correctly, those choices will be accessible to more and more people.

What I'm saying is that the way we balance work and money, and even the existence of money itself, has no basis in objective reality. They're arbitrary, invented human tools. That's why we've had so many different systems over time.

Therefore, there is no "limitation" on what we can do with it. Our current system is just our current system, and nothing more. We can change it any time we want, into whatever we want. Saying "we can't do X because things are currently Y, and X isn't compatible with Y" isn't a real reason because we can change Y anytime we want.

Not necessarily. The last big economic system shift occurred in just a few decades. And times move much quicker now than they did then.

MaggieD said:

You know, that's an argument many use to argue for illegals. We need them to keep our cauliflower cheap. Our grass cutting cheap. Our cleaning lady cheap, etc. We just may have to pay more to provide jobs for our fellow Americans. And those manufacturers who choose to mfgr. overseas may just have to earn less money for their shareholders.

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I don't think, you a solid grasp on macroeconomics, those are minor things that would have a very minor impact on the overall price level, taxing imports at ludicrous levels WILL drastically increase the overall price level, you will see massive inflation. What would do if you woke up tomorrow and found almost all of the goods you buy are suddenly double or even triple what they used to cost?

NoLeftNoRight said:

I hate to tell you, but my partner and I saw grocery and clothing prices soaring under Obama

As far as tariffs, those are mostly aimed at dealing with China which is a totally hedonistic, self-interested bully nation.....do nothing and they will dominate eventually.

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Inflation has still stayed at a manageable level, however high tariffs on imports will see price levels skyrocket. Food is also one of those things that fluctuates rather severely.