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4chan: The Skeleton Key to the Rise of Trump

Re: 4chan: The Skeleton Key to the Rise of 45

Then you weren't listening to the message, because this also wasn't about the damn election or how to win swing voters or whatever else. It wasn't even about Republicans or conservatives. Are you still buying that 45 is a damn conservative?

This is about a social phenomenon which is eventually going to be important, because eventually the Boomers will die, finally relinquishing their geriatric stranglehold on American society, and these people will make up a substantial proportion of America's most powerful demographic -- and they hate and are trying to destroy this society.

Why do you think it is young people vote so little, Goshin? Just curious.

You've asked me numerous times for thousands of my words about the way my generation -- your son's generation -- is being affected by the entropic environment in America, and here you are saying it doesn't matter. You and yours are fine with a little help from your older Millenial friends, so that's cool then?

Well, why are you here then?

Some of us are trying to figure out how to undo what's destroying our men and why they consequently try to destroy everything else. If you don't give a ****, then at least have the decency not to throw things around while we're trying to figure it out.

Because we're gonna have to keep living with this entropy long after you're dead. So will your son and his blighted friends.

There's no denying the Boomers are a failed generation: self-interested, entitled, angry, spoiled. They had a middle-class lifestyle handed to them, and they consumed with abandon, and they're leaving chaos and strife behind for the rest of us to clean up.

Now they've given us Trump.
 
Re: 4chan: The Skeleton Key to the Rise of 45

There's no denying the Boomers are a failed generation: self-interested, entitled, angry, spoiled.

That sounds like millennial's. lol.
 
Re: 4chan: The Skeleton Key to the Rise of 45

That sounds like millennial's. lol.

Yeah, that's just a Boomer projecting. I'm not a Millennial, but I respect them. They're the ones who are gonna have to rebuild. They're working hard, and they're getting nothing. They can't buy homes. They can't save. Their future looks like an economic black hole.

Boomers entered an economy with abundant jobs, abundant housing, pensions, social security -- a clear path to success. Millennials enter an economy with a giant barrier of entry, dwindling job prospects, lots of uncertainty. They're smart, they're educated, they're creative, and they're struggling. And now these old, entitled b**tards turn around and call them "snowflakes" and look down their noses at them?
 
Re: 4chan: The Skeleton Key to the Rise of 45

Yeah, that's just a Boomer projecting. I'm not a Millennial, but I respect them. They're the ones who are gonna have to rebuild. They're working hard, and they're getting nothing. They can't buy homes. They can't save. Their future looks like an economic black hole.

Boomers entered an economy with abundant jobs, abundant housing, pensions, social security -- a clear path to success. Millennials enter an economy with a giant barrier of entry, dwindling job prospects, lots of uncertainty. They're smart, they're educated, they're creative, and they're struggling. And now these old, entitled b**tards turn around and call them "snowflakes" and look down their noses at them?

I'm a millennial, you know. Millennials are not going to be the generation that rebuilds because they have all the same exact shortcomings of their parents.

Oh and yes, they're snowflakes. Milo is mean by calling a he a he, a manly unfunny woman an ape, and feminism cancer and they lose their ****.
 
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Re: 4chan: The Skeleton Key to the Rise of 45

Then you weren't listening to the message, because this also wasn't about the damn election or how to win swing voters or whatever else. It wasn't even about Republicans or conservatives. Are you still buying that 45 is a damn conservative?

This is about a social phenomenon which is eventually going to be important, because eventually the Boomers will die, finally relinquishing their geriatric stranglehold on American society, and these people will make up a substantial proportion of America's most powerful demographic -- and they hate and are trying to destroy this society.

Why do you think it is young people vote so little, Goshin? Just curious.

You've asked me numerous times for thousands of my words about the way my generation -- your son's generation -- is being affected by the entropic environment in America, and here you are saying it doesn't matter. You and yours are fine with a little help from your older Millenial friends, so that's cool then?

Well, why are you here then?

Some of us are trying to figure out how to undo what's destroying our men and why they consequently try to destroy everything else. If you don't give a ****, then at least have the decency not to throw things around while we're trying to figure it out.

Because we're gonna have to keep living with this entropy long after you're dead. So will your son and his blighted friends.



Dear and fluffy Cato the Elder...

Implied-Facepalm.jpg


This generation-gap thing has been going on since Leonidas was a pup. Elders thinking the younger generation is lazy and messed up and the destruction of society, youths thinking their elders understand nothing and struggling with existential despair and angst trying to find their place in the world.


Every generation thinks it is a new thing, and every generation is WRONG. It's been around in one form or another for millenia.


The Hipster Refuseniks are just a recycled version of the Hippies who were a retread of the Beatniks and whatnot. There are variations and details but the theme is fundamentally about the same.


Some generations its worse than others, but it is rarely ever the world-shattering drama those in it think it is.


You think it is harder to get a job or find a place in society today than it was in 1933? During the Great Depression?

You think the divide between the generations is wider than in 1968?


You can't see the forest for the trees.


Oh and btw...


Because we're gonna have to keep living with this entropy long after you're dead. So will your son and his blighted friends

That was an ugly thing to say, or certainly came across that way.
 
Re: 4chan: The Skeleton Key to the Rise of 45

I'm a millennial, you know. Millennials are not going to be the generation that rebuilds because they have all the same exact shortcomings of their parents.

Sorry to presume. If you're right, Henrin, then the county's as good as done for. The Milennials I've work with are industrious and proud and driven: They're extremely productive, and the Boomers are stealing all their productivity. The Boomers had it easy, so they own everything, and Millennials either live with their parents because they can't afford to move out or they turn over most of their paychecks in the form of rent.

I worked at a place that ran into this problem. Starting wage was $10/hour, and you couldn't even walk in the door without a college degree. Every new hire in the 7 years I was there was a kid right of college, saddled with student loan debt, and living with their parents. Every hire. We offered positions to others, but no one could afford to move there to take such a low-paying job, so they would turn us down. It meant we could pretty much only recruit from people who had grown up within a 30-mile radius.

These kids would come in, work hard, get no raises, make no economic progress, and eventually leave the industry all-together, usually for service jobs. F*&ing disheartening.
 
Re: 4chan: The Skeleton Key to the Rise of 45

Dear and fluffy Cato the Elder...

This generation-gap thing has been going on since Leonidas was a pup. Elders thinking the younger generation is lazy and messed up and the destruction of society, youths thinking their elders understand nothing and struggling with existential despair and angst trying to find their place in the world.


Every generation thinks it is a new thing, and every generation is WRONG. It's been around in one form or another for millenia.


The Hipster Refuseniks are just a recycled version of the Hippies who were a retread of the Beatniks and whatnot. There are variations and details but the theme is fundamentally about the same.


Some generations its worse than others, but it is rarely ever the world-shattering drama those in it think it is.


You think it is harder to get a job or find a place in society today than it was in 1933? During the Great Depression?

You think the divide between the generations is wider than in 1968?


You can't see the forest for the trees.

And one of the worst mistakes people make is failing to differentiate between normal coming of age, and shifts in society.

Goshin, we're not coming of age anymore. I'm a lot closer to 30 than 20, and so are most of us. We're already there. The kids coming of age now aren't even Millenials. We're all adults now, and the oldest of us are closing on in middle age.

This is not a coming of age. This is a change.

These men are the biggest group of terrorists in the US. They are chronically unemployed. They have astronomical suicide and overdose rates.

Just because you've never lived through one before doesn't mean it's impossible for it to be happening now. Society always changes eventually, and nearly everyone who lives for a good amount of time will see a change at some point in their life, because actually, changes are common. They happen every single century.

This is yours -- and mine, and your son's. Just because it didn't happen sooner doesn't mean it's impossible for it to be happening. Everyone who lives to see a change thinks it couldn't possibly happen to them, and yet it does.

It isn't just about how hard it is or isn't to have a job. It's about how hard it is to have a life. It's about the lack of the human need for community, and to see results from your labors. All the stuff that's in the article. I won't re-write it for you. This is a society where playing the system as it's intended only puts you further behind. What have I told you every time you've asked for my help on advising your son? Don't play by the rules. Don't EVER play by the rules, or you're trapped.

Does that sound like a healthy mood for society to exist in, for trusting society to be the worst thing you could do? Clearly not, but it's also true.

My dad lived through 1968. And he was the right age too -- about 20. He died in 2014, but towards the end, he told me that things looked like they were going to be at least as bad as they were in his youth, and possibly worse. I'll take his word for that.

The last thing he ever asked of me was to not delay my plans to move to the UK due to his death. I kept that promise, but Jesus was it awful. But he was right. If I had moved later, I'd be losing my home again now.

I have felt guilty about thinking this, but there's a part of me that wonders if it isn't a mercy that he never knew what wound up happening in the US, and also in the UK where I am now living as an immigrant under a reactionary anti-immigrant government. He would be losing his mind with worry if he knew.

I do not know what this change is going to lead to. But I am pretty sure we are in one, and given that a substantial part of that change seems to include anti-society tones, it would be unbelievably stupid for us to not handle it with care if we want this change to not cause any huge disasters.

Oh and btw...

That was an ugly thing to say, or certainly came across that way.

I didn't mean it to. It's a thing that I think fails to be acknowledged when older people are doing stuff that is going to affect their children more than it ever affects them, was my point.

ETA: Do you mean what I said about his friends? That isn't personal. Every single one of us many, many blighted friends. They're just as intelligent and goodly as anyone else -- just unlucky, in many cases. Because our entire generation is suffering from blight.

Actually, in my wording I am continuing to be hopeful that your son won't personally be one of them. But there is no hope that he won't know them and watch them struggle. Let go of that pipedream. Not gonna happen.
 
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Re: 4chan: The Skeleton Key to the Rise of 45

And one of the worst mistakes people make is failing to differentiate between normal coming of age, and shifts in society.

Goshin, we're not coming of age anymore. I'm a lot closer to 30 than 20, and so are most of us. We're already there. The kids coming of age now aren't even Millenials. We're all adults now, and the oldest of us are closing on in middle age.

This is not a coming of age. This is a change.

These men are the biggest group of terrorists in the US. They are chronically unemployed. They have astronomical suicide and overdose rates.

Just because you've never lived through one before doesn't mean it's impossible for it to be happening now. Society always changes eventually, and nearly everyone who lives for a good amount of time will see a change at some point in their life, because actually, changes are common. They happen every single century.

This is yours -- and mine, and your son's. Just because it didn't happen sooner doesn't mean it's impossible for it to be happening. Everyone who lives to see a change thinks it couldn't possibly happen to them, and yet it does.

It isn't just about how hard it is or isn't to have a job. It's about how hard it is to have a life. It's about the lack of the human need for community, and to see results from your labors. All the stuff that's in the article. I won't re-write it for you. This is a society where playing the system as it's intended only puts you further behind. What have I told you every time you've asked for my help on advising your son? Don't play by the rules. Don't EVER play by the rules, or you're trapped.

Does that sound like a healthy mood for society to exist in, for trusting society to be the worst thing you could do? Clearly not, but it's also true.

My dad lived through 1968. And he was the right age too -- about 20. He died in 2014, but towards the end, he told me that things looked like they were going to be at least as bad as they were in his youth, and possibly worse. I'll take his word for that....edited for length.... include anti-society tones, it would be unbelievably stupid for us to not handle it with care if we want this change to not cause any huge disasters.



I didn't mean it to. It's a thing that I think fails to be acknowledged when older people are doing stuff that is going to affect their children more than it ever affects them, was my point.

ETA: Do you mean what I said about his friends? That isn't personal. Every single one of us many, many blighted friends. They're just as intelligent and goodly as anyone else -- just unlucky, in many cases. Because our entire generation is suffering from blight.

Actually, in my wording I am continuing to be hopeful that your son won't personally be one of them. But there is no hope that he won't know them and watch them struggle. Let go of that pipedream. Not gonna happen.




Smoke I'm not sure what to say to you.


You use the word "entropy" and expect it to continue unabated.


Entropy is a physics term referring to the movement of energy and its tendency to move from a higher state to a lower state. It doesn't really apply to human society because it is far more complex than any Stirling engine.


There are variations and details that differ, but things tend to move in cycles in society. The market and the economy go up and down, jobs go up and down, hell even skirts and beards go up and down (and their length has been correlated to economics remarkably enough).

The job market has been down since before you had any reason to pay any attention to it. That doesn't mean it will stay down forever... at least it never has before. Cycles.

I also remember the job market getting better and jobs easy to come by.

There's societal turmoil for a while and then things settle down for a while, and then there's turmoil again.

I'm 51. That might sound gawd-awful old to you, but I remember being 22, being 30. I remember being young in an iffy job market and wondering how the hell you were supposed to get any experience when every employer wanted 2-5 years experience for everything. I remember being 30 and renting a crappy little shack and trying to support a wife and new baby on a low-end cop salary.

And btw, I don't like being spoken of as if I have one foot in the grave. If I live as long as half my relatives I could be around another 30-40 years, so assuming I don't care about the future is incredibly wrong.


But back to the OP... the OP, and the article referenced, WERE about Trump and 'how did we get Trump' and I originally answered on that basis and from that perspective, because that's how it was presented.
 
Warning, this is a very interesting but extremely dense read on the explanation behind the deplorables/Trump connection as well as a history behind the rise and persistence of their political movement.

Make some tea and get comfy, because you're not going to buzz through this in a couple minutes. I'm very curious to hear what Democrats, liberals and otherwise anybody on the Left and Center have to say in response to the points made by Dale Beran.

https://medium.com/@DaleBeran/4chan-the-skeleton-key-to-the-rise-of-trump-624e7cb798cb#.2a90rxbwv

This is a great piece. Thanks for posting.

[4Chan young]Men who have retreated to video games and internet porn can now characterize their helpless flight as an empowered conscious choice to reject women for something else. In other words, it justifies a lifestyle which in their hearts they previously regarded helplessly as a mark of shame.

...It was almost as if all these disaffected young men were waiting for a figure to come along who, having achieved nothing in his life, pretended as though he had achieved everything, who by using the tools of fantasy, could transmute their loserdom (in 4chan parlance, their “fail”), into “win”.

And then, along came Trump.
 
And, that from above is summed up nicely here:

...Chinaski and Manny are flush with money, not from working for the $1.25 an hour at the warehouse or even making smart bets themselves, but from taking the money of the other workers and not betting it. That is after all, why those same men handing over their bets work in the factory; they are defined by their bad decisions, by the capacity for always getting a bad deal. Their wages and their bets are both examples of the same thing.

Trump, of course, has made his fortune in a similar manner, with casinos, correspondence courses, and pageants, swindling money out of aspiring-millionaire blue collar workers, selling them not a bill of goods, but the hope of a bill of goods, the glitz and glamour of success, to people who don’t win...

In other words, if we are to understand Trump supporters, we can view them at the core as losers — people who never ever bet on the right horse — Trump, of course, being the signal example, the man obsessed with “losers” who, seemingly was going to be remembered as one of the biggest losers in history — until he won.
 
Apparently you folks still don't get it.


It is right in front of your nose and you can't seem to accept it.




Trump won because the alternative was Hillary. Her corruption scandals were a big part of it; rejection of her politics and agenda were another. That phrase you so love: "basket of deplorables" clinched it. Calling people deplorable is no way to win friends.


The continuing HYSTERIA and general bad behavior and appalling rhetoric over your loss is causing Trump supporters to double-down in their support, and even swinging parts of the middle around towards Trump-support out of disgust for the above. I personally know libertarians and moderates who did not vote for Trump saying they feel they have to defend a man they despise because the opposition to him is acting NUTS.


Nevermind, back to your regularly scheduled echo-chamber....

It is the Political Correctness mindset.

They've been using the social Cudge of "You're a Racist" and "Climate Denier" for so long, and at least among the Intimidatable on Campus, to success, that they know no other way...

And they THINK it will work for them with Working White Americans, the way it does with College Students.

The Far-Lefties honestly believe that they can "Socially Shame" people into dropping, or at least never admitting, their support for President Trump.

But the Working Whites have been called Bubba, Racists, Skin Heads, "Deplorables", Neo-Cons, ... You name it, for so long, we not only don't feel the slightest Guilt or Shame, We've chosen to wear our "outcast" from the Far-Lefties as a badge of honor!

I'm a PROUD to be a member of the Deplorables who are going to Drain the Swamp, and shove the Lefties out of every position of power and authority we can find!

We are the single largest voting Demographic group! So large, we can dominate American Politics just with our own, no coalition needed, and the "Deplorables" attitude has united U.S. like never before in American History!

Everytime I hear a Leftie using the "Deplorables" term, I harden my resolve, and renew my vigor for the fight to see them shoved so far away from any authority, they'll have to permission in triplicate from U.S. just to beg for a handout!

There is a reckoning coming for the Far-Left, and it cannot come too soon, or be too harsh!

-
 
Re: 4chan: The Skeleton Key to the Rise of 45

Smoke I'm not sure what to say to you.


You use the word "entropy" and expect it to continue unabated.


Entropy is a physics term referring to the movement of energy and its tendency to move from a higher state to a lower state. It doesn't really apply to human society because it is far more complex than any Stirling engine.


There are variations and details that differ, but things tend to move in cycles in society. The market and the economy go up and down, jobs go up and down, hell even skirts and beards go up and down (and their length has been correlated to economics remarkably enough).

The job market has been down since before you had any reason to pay any attention to it. That doesn't mean it will stay down forever... at least it never has before. Cycles.

I also remember the job market getting better and jobs easy to come by.

There's societal turmoil for a while and then things settle down for a while, and then there's turmoil again.

I'm 51. That might sound gawd-awful old to you, but I remember being 22, being 30. I remember being young in an iffy job market and wondering how the hell you were supposed to get any experience when every employer wanted 2-5 years experience for everything. I remember being 30 and renting a crappy little shack and trying to support a wife and new baby on a low-end cop salary.

And btw, I don't like being spoken of as if I have one foot in the grave. If I live as long as half my relatives I could be around another 30-40 years, so assuming I don't care about the future is incredibly wrong.


But back to the OP... the OP, and the article referenced, WERE about Trump and 'how did we get Trump' and I originally answered on that basis and from that perspective, because that's how it was presented.

Oh come on, Goshin. It's called a metaphor. Obviously I am aware we are not discussing actual physics.

This isn't about the economy. Things can go south even when the economy isn't that terrible. There is more to life and politics than GDP.

You're not being attention. Either to the article, or anything I'm saying, or to the social mood.

That's easy to do where you are. Things change slowly. Conflict is always somewhere else.

It's not easy to do where I am. It's not easy to do in the places where the attacks are happening, where the police presence and armament is getting intense even in this anti-gun country, where people I know have been attacked when a good old boy heard their foreign accent.

I was here 10 years ago, when I was ACTUALLY coming of age. When I would have thought it was badass to get to be involved in a fight. It wasn't like this. And Minneapolis wasn't how I remembered it either, in 2014.

51 doesn't sound old to me. It sounds middle-aged. Hell, I didn't see my dad as being "old" either, and he had a good amount of years on you. He was young of mind. "Spry," I think you old-timers call it. Sometimes change takes a while to happen. Sometimes there's a big, long rumble before it actually does. The rupture often happens quickly, but it's rarely without a couple decades of build-up. We might still be in the build-up. I don't know.

I felt the way you describe about 5 to 10 years ago, during the recession proper. That iffy, free-fall sort of feeling.

That isn't the feeling I have now. That isn't the feeling my dad had in 2014 -- someone who actually lived through the last American change (and if you want to make everything about age, then let me just remind you that you haven't). The feeling I have now is a lot more unstable than that.

This is important for us to get right. This matters. And you want to pretend it's not happening so you can feel more in control of it, or so you can win a debate by talking down to someone merely for being younger than you. You and every other person from every era of history who just couldn't believe things won't always be exactly the way they've always been. And every one of you has been wrong, every single generation in all of history.

I don't think my generation going to be some sort of savior, Goshin. Actually, I think we're gonna be the bad guys. I think today's kids are gonna have to fix us. That's my sense.

And you can ignore it and wave it off because the sky still looks blue where you are, miles away from where this stuff is actually happening. But you understand that if there's one thing I know -- and I'm pretty bad at most things in life, to be honest -- I know social winds.

That's why you ask me for advice on that topic even though I'm half your age. We all have our talents.
 
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