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Trump and 25th Amendment

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haymarket

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After the Trump press conference of Thursday and his tweet going to war against the news media on the following day, we started to hear about something that is rarely discussed in politics - the 25th Amendment as a tool to remove a president.

To be quite blunt about it - people wonder if Trump is mentally unstable due to mental illness and that illness threatens the nation and its people.

Here is an article about it:

Why the 25th Amendment is suddenly getting so much attention | MSNBC

Reflecting on recent events, the New York Times’ David Brooks’ latest column noted, “I still have trouble seeing how the Trump administration survives a full term. Judging by his Thursday press conference, President Trump’s mental state is like a train that long ago left freewheeling and iconoclastic, has raced through indulgent, chaotic and unnerving, and is now careening past unhinged, unmoored and unglued.” This is not an uncommon sentiment. During Donald Trump’s press conference yesterday, a variety of reporters in the room were overheard whispering among each other about the “insane” nature of president’s performance. There was a similar reaction on Capitol Hill: NBC News’ Kasie Hunt said lawmakers from both parties watched the event with their “jaws on the floor.”

Earlier in the week, the Washington Post’s E.J. Dionne Jr. asked a question many have pondered, but few have spoken aloud: “What is this democratic nation to do when the man serving as president of the United States plainly has no business being president of the United States?” His colleague, Dana Milbank, recently conceded, “My worry is the president of the United States is barking mad.”
Ordinarily, conversations along these lines lead to questions about possible impeachment proceedings and congressional options for removing a president from office. But if my email inbox is any indication, there’s growing interest in the options available through the 25th Amendment – which has a Wikipedia page that’s apparently being referenced more and more all the time. In fact, The Atlantic’s David Frum joked after the election, “Twenty-Fifth Amendment to the Constitution. Article 4. We’re all going to be talking a lot more about it in the months ahead.”
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The President of the USA as the subject for a modern version of THE MADNESS OF KING GEORGE coming soon to a theater near you.

We already have seen how Trump fits the textbook definition and all nine out of nine signposts for extreme narcissism disorder. That seems beyond dispute. Now we have a president who goes even beyond that and appears to live in his own reality.... to not be able to tell the difference between truth and lies ..... and whose overall mental health is now a nation topic of speculation and conversation.

When Dana Milbank worries out loud that the President of the USA might be "barking mad" - its time for action that we have never seen before.
 
Here is the narcissism material

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM - 5, Cluster B) for “Narcissistic Personality Disorder” by The American Psychiatric Association (APA)

Here, according to The APA, are the 9 criteria for “Narcissistic Personality Disorder”. If an individual has 5 out of the 9 they have a confirmed diagnosis of this illness. Many individuals have “traits” of narcissism but only about 1% of the population has clinical NPD.

“Summary : A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

1. Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
2. Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love.
3. Believe that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with other special or high-status people (or institutions)
4. Requires excessive admiration
5. Has a sense of entitlement
6. Is interpersonally exploitative
7. Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
8. Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her.
9. Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.”
 
This is alarming. A letter from 33 mental health professionals all expressing concern about the mental health of Trump. They conclude that Trump cannot safely serve as president of the USA due to his mental instability.

Lance M. Dodes, M.D. - Letter To The Editor, NYT

To The Editors of the New York Times
To the Editor:

Charles M. Blow (column, nytimes.com, Feb. 9) describes Donald Trump’s constant need “to grind the opposition underfoot.” As mental health professionals, we share Mr. Blow’s concern. Silence from the country’s mental health organizations has been due to a self-imposed dictum about evaluating public figures (the American Psychiatric Association’s 1973 Goldwater Rule). But this silence has resulted in a failure to lend our expertise to worried journalists and members of Congress at this critical time. We fear that too much is at stake to be silent any longer.

Mr. Trump’s speech and actions demonstrate an inability to tolerate views different from his own, leading to rage reactions. His words and behavior suggest a profound inability to empathize. Individuals with these traits distort reality to suit their psychological state, attacking facts and those who convey them (journalists, scientists). In a powerful leader, these attacks are likely to increase, as his personal myth of greatness appears to be confirmed. We believe that the grave emotional instability indicated by Mr. Trump’s speech and actions makes him incapable of serving safely as president.
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The letter is signed by the following mental health professionals

Lance Dodes, M.D.

Joseph Schachter, M.D., Ph.D.

Susan Radant, Ph.D.

Judith Schachter, M.D.

Jules Kerman, M.D., Ph.D

Jeffrey Seitelman, M.D., Ph.D.

Henry Friedman, M.D.

Babak Roshanaei-Moghaddam, MD

David Cooper, Ph.D.

Dena Sorbo, LCSW, BCD

Joseph Reppen, Ph.D.

Ernest Wallwork, Ph.D.

Judith E. Vida, M.D.

Richard Reichbart, J.D., Ph.D.

Joseph Abrahams, M.D.

Leslie Schweitzer-Miller, M.D.

Cheryl Y. Goodrich, Ph.D.

Lourdes Henares-Levy, M.D.

Alexandra Rolde, M.D.

Dr. med. Helen Schoenhals Hart

Eva D. Papiasvili, Ph.D.

Mali Mann, M.D.

Phyllis Tyson, Ph.D.

Era A. Loewenstein, Ph.D.

Marianna Adler, Ph.D.

Henry Nunberg, M.D.

Marc R. Hirsch, Ph.D.

Lora Heims Tessman, Ph.D.

Monisha Nayar-Akhtar, Ph.D.

Victoria Schreiber, M.A., L.M.S.W.

Penny M Freedman, Ph.D.

Merton A. Shill, JD. LLM., PhD.

Helen K. Gediman, Ph.D.

Michael P. Kowitt, Ph.D.

Leonard Glass, M.D.
 
If this kind of crap keeps up the Democrat party really may off itself.

I can understand these crackpot theories popping up on internet message boards and such but when I see them brought up by major media outlets I just have to shake my head.
 
Lutherf said:
If this kind of crap keeps up the Democrat party really may off itself.

I can understand these crackpot theories popping up on internet message boards and such but when I see them brought up by major media outlets I just have to shake my head.
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thoe 33 mental health medical professionals would disagree.
 
I remember the way I felt when I first heard something from a "truther". I was embarrassed, Disturbed and discouraged. It was alarming to realize that people could fill themselves with such ridiculous ideas just because of the bias they have politically. And it was embarrassing to think that people that share some of my political viewpoint we're going to take that ridiculous route to try to tear down the president of the United States.

This logic being presented here in this thread actually makes me feel slightly sicker. The level of intolerance required to say this stuff about people whose worldview it's different is painfully large.

This is truly the straw man of Straw Men. It is attacking someone psychological being because one disagrees with him. To be honest I think it's a little crazy. And yes I do see what I did there.
 
haymarket said:
thoe 33 mental health medical professionals would disagree.
Click to expand...
eye roll. Appeal to Popularity.

These threads since ~Jan 1 should be sent to medical professionals.
 
MACS-24 said:
eye roll. Appeal to Popularity.

These threads since ~Jan 1 should be sent to medical professionals.
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Argumentum ad Populum is used to show that since the experts think like me - I am right. That is NOT why I introduced the letter so your criticism fails.
 
cAPSLOCK said:
I remember the way I felt when I first heard something from a "truther". I was embarrassed, Disturbed and discouraged. It was alarming to realize that people could fill themselves with such ridiculous ideas just because of the bias they have politically. And it was embarrassing to think that people that share some of my political viewpoint we're going to take that ridiculous route to try to tear down the president of the United States.

This logic being presented here in this thread actually makes me feel slightly sicker. The level of intolerance required to say this stuff about people whose worldview it's different is painfully large.

This is truly the straw man of Straw Men. It is attacking someone psychological being because one disagrees with him. To be honest I think it's a little crazy. And yes I do see what I did there.
Click to expand...

It's not a worldview. It's his behavior.
 
haymarket said:
Argumentum ad Populum is used to show that since the experts think like me - I am right. That is NOT why I introduced the letter so your criticism fails.
Click to expand...

:lamo Okay, sure. It was not you, then, that posted this
haymarket said:
The President of the USA as the subject for a modern version of THE MADNESS OF KING GEORGE coming soon to a theater near you.

We already have seen how Trump fits the textbook definition and all nine out of nine signposts for extreme narcissism disorder. That seems beyond dispute. Now we have a president who goes even beyond that and appears to live in his own reality.... to not be able to tell the difference between truth and lies ..... and whose overall mental health is now a nation topic of speculation and conversation.

When Dana Milbank worries out loud that the President of the USA might be "barking mad" - its time for action that we have never seen before.
Click to expand...
sounds like thinks alike too me.
 
haymarket said:
Here is the narcissism material

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM - 5, Cluster B) for “Narcissistic Personality Disorder” by The American Psychiatric Association (APA)

Here, according to The APA, are the 9 criteria for “Narcissistic Personality Disorder”. If an individual has 5 out of the 9 they have a confirmed diagnosis of this illness. Many individuals have “traits” of narcissism but only about 1% of the population has clinical NPD.

“Summary : A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

1. Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
2. Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love.
3. Believe that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with other special or high-status people (or institutions)
4. Requires excessive admiration
5. Has a sense of entitlement
6. Is interpersonally exploitative
7. Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
8. Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her.
9. Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.”
Click to expand...


that has tRump written all over it but we already knew that ........
 
I'll wait until a medical professional examines him personally, before I give this any sort of serious consideration.

And honestly, I think this is all just meaningless hoopla.
 
MACS-24 said:
:lamo Okay, sure. It was not you, then, that posted this
sounds like thinks alike too me.
Click to expand...

Why do you invoke the label of Argumentum ad Popular and then prove that you do not even understand what it means or how it is used?
 
haymarket said:
Why do you invoke the label of Argumentum ad Popular and then prove that you do not even understand what it means or how it is used?
Click to expand...
What difference would it make? You'd just post a new haymarket twisted definition to show it wrong. :roll:

33 unprofessional quacks give unsolicited opinion so it must be true. Your other thread doing this didn't work well so you try again?
 
MACS-24 said:
What difference would it make? You'd just post a new haymarket twisted definition to show it wrong. :roll:

33 unprofessional quacks give unsolicited opinion so it must be true. Your other thread doing this didn't work well so you try again?
Click to expand...

read and learn

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."
Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
 
I only found out about 2 months ago how the 25th Amendment came to be. The government added it only after the assassination of JFK, and the excuse was that the succession of LBJ had somehow been imperfect, thus the need for the 25th. Probably specious, all things considered.

But it certainly provides a vehicle by which a POTUS can be deposed without being impeached.

My bet is they will employ this tool against Trump, for he has threatened the Deep State in a serious way.
 
MACS-24 said:
Predictable :roll:

:2wave:
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Yes - using an authoritative definition to prove my point is indeed predictable. Every person engaged in collegiate debate does the exact same thing.
 
Thoreau72 said:
I only found out about 2 months ago how the 25th Amendment came to be. The government added it only after the assassination of JFK, and the excuse was that the succession of LBJ had somehow been imperfect, thus the need for the 25th. Probably specious, all things considered.

But it certainly provides a vehicle by which a POTUS can be deposed without being impeached.

My bet is they will employ this tool against Trump, for he has threatened the Deep State in a serious way.
Click to expand...

They need to use it against Trump. However I would guess that there would have to be disastrous 2018 election results before Republicans want any part of that.
 
My position is: Maybe he is not that bad, and if it is so bad then know that it will eventually pass, and you guys should take it from him throughout his grip of the oval office until then.
 
haymarket said:
After the Trump press conference of Thursday and his tweet going to war against the news media on the following day, we started to hear about something that is rarely discussed in politics - the 25th Amendment as a tool to remove a president.

To be quite blunt about it - people wonder if Trump is mentally unstable due to mental illness and that illness threatens the nation and its people.

Here is an article about it:

Why the 25th Amendment is suddenly getting so much attention | MSNBC



The President of the USA as the subject for a modern version of THE MADNESS OF KING GEORGE coming soon to a theater near you.

We already have seen how Trump fits the textbook definition and all nine out of nine signposts for extreme narcissism disorder. That seems beyond dispute. Now we have a president who goes even beyond that and appears to live in his own reality.... to not be able to tell the difference between truth and lies ..... and whose overall mental health is now a nation topic of speculation and conversation.

When Dana Milbank worries out loud that the President of the USA might be "barking mad" - its time for action that we have never seen before.
Click to expand...
Someone should get those whiners a waahburger, french cries and a whiniken.
whaburger french cries and whinekin.jpg
 
If the 25th amendment passes and Trump resigns on psychological disability grounds, then maybe psychological checks or even an upper age limit may be in order for future candidates to have prior to competing for the POTUS job.
 
DDD said:
Over-reactive for complaining about what Trump did in just one month you mean? You think this is how they feel?

I Cant GIF - Find & Share on GIPHY
Click to expand...

When republicans accused Obama of being a narcissist, communist,socialist and dictator the left dismissed them. When some fringe loonies accused Obama of not having real birth certificate the left, republicans and the main stream media dismissed them.
 
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