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The Republican Congress look like idiots...

When a patient develops a tumor and that tumor is meshed with certain vital parts of the brain, it would be folly for a doctor to walk in and say "dont worry...we're going to snatch that sucker clean right out of there no problem." The reality is that the passage of the ACA is not unlike and enmeshed tumor. People have become dependent on it. Some love it. Some hate it. Some dont like parts of it. The GOP is going to be pretty much stuck with some form of moderation that will not kill the patient while removing the tumor. And they might have to eat a little pride. They MAY have to come down and say OK...we are going to keep THESE parts in-tact. For these other parts...we are going to make it better, some we are going to replace out right, and some we are going to straight up kill. Odds are....they arent going to be able to do it without the other parties support so at the end of the day...both parties will claim victory.
 
RAMOSS said:
That is demonstrably false, since if you look at the costs as a measure of GDP in health care of countries that have unisersal health care verses the USA, we pay a lot more and get a lot less for the more money.

US_spends_much_more_on_health_than_what_might_be_expected_1_slideshow.jpg
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Lie, health care is not nearly as good as you wish to believe. I have relatives in Canada, Holland, England and other places and they disagree with you 100 %

Sent from my SM-G920R4 using Tapatalk
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Remembering of course that Obama calculated that by the time he left office ObamaCare would be so deeply rooted that it could not be yanked out.....
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lol...yeah, it went from "repeal immediately" during the election to "could not be yanked out" on Jan 20. That Obama. He sure was a genius :roll:
 
WCH said:
Not even sure who's what in Congress anymore. A number of top Repubs would have just as soon Hillary won.
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Some of the most interesting conversations occur in the elevators of Congressional elevators.........;)
 
calamity said:
Yeah. i agree. if they really wanted to repeal it, they would have already.
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Exactly. A replacement was supposed to be ready on inauguration day. Folks tend to forget that is wasn't that long ago that Trump was a Democrat, and I believe that the son-in-law still may be. It wont be long for those old values to clash with the Republican establishment.
 
RAMOSS said:
But, it wsa legal before the ACA to reject someone with a pre-existing condition, because I know people who were rejected because of that. Indeed, it was the practice of some places to find reasons to drop people with cancer so they wouldn't have to pay for their treatment.. (illegally, but it was done) Insurers Revoke Policies To Avoid Paying High Costs : NPR
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We're kind of talking past each other. Your link, though, is one of the clearest I've seen explaining how insurance companies treat individuals who suddenly have health problems. I used to explain it as, when a sizeable claim is presented, the insurance company looks back at the application and underwrites it again looking for errors and omissions so they can cancel. It was done all the time.

And yes, before ACA, rejecting for pre-existing conditions was completely illegal. EXCEPT in group policies furnished by employers.
 
Visbek said:
Good question ;)

So, here's the problem. If you want to maintain a largely private system, and a private insurance system, and you want universal or near-universal coverage, the ACA is pretty much the only viable option.

Keep in mind that its origin was as a conservative plan. Almost every major component -- individual mandate, employer mandate, guaranteed issue, covering pre-existing conditions, Medicaid expansion, revoking coverage, kids staying on coverage until 26 -- was implemented by Mitt Romney, with the approval of the Heritage Foundation. The ACA even allows interstate insurance sales, at the discretion of individual states; few have taken them up on it.

For all the screeching that it is "socialism," the ACA is ultimately a free market solution. It keeps the system in private hands. Many of the new regulations are on Medicare; most of the rest relate to structures of the plans allowed in the ACA (and are still fairly loose). It avoids freeloaders.

As a result, it is finally dawning on many Republicans that if they outright repeal the ACA, they will be ending health care for 25 million or more people. Their patches (like HSAs) won't achieve universal coverage, and won't keep down premiums or health care costs.

Republicans are now subjected to the same rhetorical weapon they inflicted on Democrats for 7 years: Once you're responsible for health care, the public will blame you for anything and everything that goes wrong, or goes up in price.

To make things even more difficult, the Republicans are split. A handful of radicals want immediate repeal, regardless of the consequences. Others believe they must have a replacement. Trump, who is utterly clueless about the situation beyond calling it "awful," seems to want little more than to slap his name on a big health care plan.

So yes, this is ultimately a disaster of the Republicans' own making. They opposed a law that was based on conservative ideas, and pushed with the intent of appealing to conservatives. They vilified it, and have no other options. And if their new law doesn't bring down costs and/or throws millions of people off of their insurance, the public will not forgive them for it any time soon.
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Thanks for your post here. You consolidated a complex and nuanced topic succinctly.

Much of the opposition to the ACA is condensed Republican anger over the presidency of Barack Obama. If Congress passed the ACA and it went to McCain's desk in 2010, do you think Sean Hannity would be devoting hours of his show to disparaging it it? Come on, Republicans, look me in the eyes and tell me he would.

Republican solutions to rising premiums, Trump's solution specifically, allowing insurance to compete across state lines, is a flailing attempt to fix a problem, that they are bound by campaign donations to let alone. Capitalists and proponents of the free market, clamor around the encouraged competition of cross state insurance bidding wars. If the free market is the solution, then allow Medicare to wield it's purchasing power in the pharmaceutical market. Or how about we include a public option to create a two tier system that is proven to drive down costs... No?

Republicans can't get around their closest ally the free market.. covering people with preexisting conditions is expensive. In a profit motivated private insurance based market, how are republicans going to simultaneously guarantee everyone has insurance and premiums will be low? ~ One of Trump's promises..

They don't know what to do. HSA's, Continuous Coverage, Tax Credits, these are focus grouped solutions that cost a million dollars to invent and won't solve the billion dollar problem of the retirement of Boomers who need more coverage for a cheaper price.
 
MaggieD said:
We're kind of talking past each other. Your link, though, is one of the clearest I've seen explaining how insurance companies treat individuals who suddenly have health problems. I used to explain it as, when a sizeable claim is presented, the insurance company looks back at the application and underwrites it again looking for errors and omissions so they can cancel. It was done all the time.

And yes, before ACA, rejecting for pre-existing conditions was completely illegal. EXCEPT in group policies furnished by employers.
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I think you meant 'rejecting for pre-existing conditions was completely legal'


Money Won?t Buy You Health Insurance - The New York Times
 
calamity said:
lol...yeah, it went from "repeal immediately" during the election to "could not be yanked out" on Jan 20. That Obama. He sure was a genius :roll:
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If this is news to you I am sorry.
 
Porkuloss said:
True, as did the GOP with the tax cuts (nice, but they are debt without spending cuts that match them), Medicare-D and the doubling of defense spending that occurred under Bush.
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Which of course adds to the imperative to get these things as close as we can to right the first time, something that Obama never gave two ****s about, competent government near as I can tell is not something that he considers to be important.

Which goes far towards explaining why Trump is here.
 
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Maggie your post is on the mark. What people WANT is "magic" health car. Low cost , high quality.

The other guys promised that and didn't deliver ( of course they couldn't no such thing exists)

and now they're going to be shocked the Republican can't deliver it either.
 
KLATTU said:
Maggie your post is on the mark. What people WANT is "magic" health car. Low cost , high quality.

The other guys promised that and didn't deliver ( of course they couldn't no such thing exists)

and now they're going to be shocked the Republican can't deliver it either.
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We have long refused to pick and choose, to accept that we cant have everything our heart desires, in many cases while expecting someone else to pay for our wants.
 
tres borrachos said:
The ACA insurance costs were/are way too high, and the ACA didn't do enough to contain the actual costs of healthcare. That's why it was a bad plan. Whatever Trump and the GOP propose will also be a bad plan unless it actually addresses the costs of healthcare, which it probably won't. The government isn't exactly the resident expert on removing waste from processes and containing costs.
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That is why we need to stop lining the pockets of our lawmakers. They (left and right) get elected with the money (we should be able to call it what it is - bribery)Doesn't matter that it is laundered through PACs and SuperPACs. They are still giving favor and expecting favors in return.
 
MaggieD said:
For what? Six or seven years? The Republicans voted like sixty times to repeal Obamacare. Of course they knew it wasn't going to pass, and if it had by some miracle, that the President would have never signed it. So we have that.

Now we have a Republican majority and a Republican in The White House. And there's no plan. After, let's call it, six years, there should have been a perfect plan. Perfectly smooth transition. Done and done.

Republicans are going to pay for this.

What do you think?

Can Conservatives and Liberals have some agreement in this thread? Whatcha' think?
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sorry Maggie, you and yours don't hold them accountable. the more they failed in their promises and the harder it was to deny you and yours were lied to and pandered to, you simply got mad at the system. Until you hold them accountable and stop believing every lie, nothing is going to change.
 
as far as Obamacare is concerned, if conservatives could stop thinking of facts as a partisan attack, they’d realize there is only two ways to get rid of the “pre-existing condition” exclusion, single payer or mandates. Mandates are cheaper to the govt. that’s exactly why republicans came up with them in the first place. And also because they were ideologically opposed to single payer ie “big government”. But they spent the last 7 years attacking mandates. It was not only easy but fun. And of course they convinced their base that Obamacare was big govt. So there is absolutely nothing they can come up with that will be cheaper and better. Nothing. Maybe better but not cheaper. and I'll go out on a limb and say neither cheaper nor better.

I know its going to be hard but you’re just going to have accept that you have been lied and pandered to the last 7 years about Obamacare. There is no magic plan out there.
 
Vern said:
sorry Maggie, you and yours don't hold them accountable. the more they failed in their promises and the harder it was to deny you and yours were lied to and pandered to, you simply got mad at the system. Until you hold them accountable and stop believing every lie, nothing is going to change.
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Vern said:
as far as Obamacare is concerned, if conservatives could stop thinking of facts as a partisan attack, they’d realize there is only two ways to get rid of the “pre-existing condition” exclusion, single payer or mandates. Mandates are cheaper to the govt. that’s exactly why republicans came up with them in the first place. And also because they were ideologically opposed to single payer ie “big government”. But they spent the last 7 years attacking mandates. It was not only easy but fun. And of course they convinced their base that Obamacare was big govt. So there is absolutely nothing they can come up with that will be cheaper and better. Nothing. Maybe better but not cheaper. and I'll go out on a limb and say neither cheaper nor better.

I know its going to be hard but you’re just going to have accept that you have been lied and pandered to the last 7 years about Obamacare. There is no magic plan out there.
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I've always thought the ACA merely needed tweaking. There's really no magic about pre-existing conditions. Insurance companies have been insuring for pre-existing conditions since employers started providing health insurance for their employees. Group policies must, by law, take all comers. No exclusions allowed. And they make plenty of money off those group policies or they wouldn't sell them.
 
RAMOSS said:
When it comes to the individual mandate. The reason for it is that without that pool of 'healthy' people to help pay for the ones that aren't, then it is an economic disaster.

There are a few things that I do not mind socialized... education for one, and healthcare for another. I think that big pharma needs to be regulated. There is too much price gouging in the field in the USA.. for medicines that the customers don't have access to it, they are dead. There should be a balance between making a profit, and holding people's lives for ransom.
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Take a look at big pharma

Yes, there are excesses....and price gouging....I agree with those statements

But tell me what other country is coming up with the new drugs like we are? Who is even close? No one....

Because we have the profit motive here, we also have the r&d here....take away the profit and there is less reason to do research

That is the issue...there are some that go into medicine and research because it is their calling

Most do it because of the profit potential....less potential, less people willing to take risks gambling on research
 
MaggieD said:
For what? Six or seven years? The Republicans voted like sixty times to repeal Obamacare. Of course they knew it wasn't going to pass, and if it had by some miracle, that the President would have never signed it. So we have that.

Now we have a Republican majority and a Republican in The White House. And there's no plan. After, let's call it, six years, there should have been a perfect plan. Perfectly smooth transition. Done and done.

Republicans are going to pay for this.

What do you think?

Can Conservatives and Liberals have some agreement in this thread? Whatcha' think?
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When you look like an idiot, to an idiot, that is a good thing......
 
MaggieD said:
For what? Six or seven years? The Republicans voted like sixty times to repeal Obamacare. Of course they knew it wasn't going to pass, and if it had by some miracle, that the President would have never signed it. So we have that.

Now we have a Republican majority and a Republican in The White House. And there's no plan. After, let's call it, six years, there should have been a perfect plan. Perfectly smooth transition. Done and done.

Republicans are going to pay for this.

What do you think?

Can Conservatives and Liberals have some agreement in this thread? Whatcha' think?
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I haven't read through this whole thread so someone might have mentioned this, but the reason Congress is operating the way they are in respect to Obamacare can be explained by understanding the concept of the "UnParty". There is really much too much involved with this concept to describe it here, but you can get a good understanding at this link: https://theconservativetreehouse.co...-obamacare-remember-the-uniparty-supports-it/
 
Mycroft said:
I haven't read through this whole thread so someone might have mentioned this, but the reason Congress is operating the way they are in respect to Obamacare can be explained by understanding the concept of the "UnParty".
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It could also be explained by the "concept" that they simply cant come up with a plan that is better and cheaper after 7 years. just so you know, republicans came up with the idea of mandates because it was cheaper than single payer. Sometimes the easiest explanation is the right one.
 
MaggieD said:
For what? Six or seven years? The Republicans voted like sixty times to repeal Obamacare. Of course they knew it wasn't going to pass, and if it had by some miracle, that the President would have never signed it. So we have that.

Now we have a Republican majority and a Republican in The White House. And there's no plan. After, let's call it, six years, there should have been a perfect plan. Perfectly smooth transition. Done and done.

Republicans are going to pay for this.

What do you think?

Can Conservatives and Liberals have some agreement in this thread? Whatcha' think?
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Of course the republicans will fail. They plan to replace obamacare. Anything that leaves government managing health insurance will fail miserably. We already know that. Yes they will pay for it at the polls.
 
MaggieD said:
For what? Six or seven years? The Republicans voted like sixty times to repeal Obamacare. Of course they knew it wasn't going to pass, and if it had by some miracle, that the President would have never signed it. So we have that.

Now we have a Republican majority and a Republican in The White House. And there's no plan. After, let's call it, six years, there should have been a perfect plan. Perfectly smooth transition. Done and done.

Republicans are going to pay for this.

What do you think?

Can Conservatives and Liberals have some agreement in this thread? Whatcha' think?
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It will be very difficult to please everyone , there will be those opposed to taxpayers footing the bill for over 48% of the population . It will be hard to please the very young who rather pay the penalty than buy the insurance and in order for any plan to work the very young need to buy in ! Making sure children under 26 are covered by their parents and pre-existing conditions along with caring for the very old are extremely costly . Hospital costs are skyrocketing and having to provide care for the 20 million illegals with Third World diseases we cured 40 years old adds to the problem . The democrats killed thousands of trees writing Obamacare and 90% voted for it without even reading it ! Price has a plan and there are a few republicans that may have trouble with it as it stands but I'm sure they are trying to make it bullet proof so they wont hear the democrats whine for the next 50 years !
 
MaggieD said:
For what? Six or seven years? The Republicans voted like sixty times to repeal Obamacare. Of course they knew it wasn't going to pass, and if it had by some miracle, that the President would have never signed it. So we have that.

Now we have a Republican majority and a Republican in The White House. And there's no plan. After, let's call it, six years, there should have been a perfect plan. Perfectly smooth transition. Done and done.

Republicans are going to pay for this.

What do you think?

Can Conservatives and Liberals have some agreement in this thread? Whatcha' think?
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A couple of things. First we know that Republicans have planS, so the issue isn't that they don't have a plan, but have not agreed on a single one. It took democrats over a year to pass the junk they did, shouldn't we be a little more patient than a month?

The task is pretty hard. There are a couple of things that most people like. Pre-existing conditions being the biggie for most people. Expanded Medicare for the working poor. Plus there were a bunch of non healthcare related taxes to pay for this so repealing ACA also means loss of revenues.

So this is a large task. ACA has proven to be a disaster. I think Democrats understood this, thus put the popular things first and when the **** hit the fan expected to redo it, probably with single payer. Thus the loss of Hillary was so devastating to Obama.

I hope these folks take a little more time and get something closer to correct this time.
 
washunut said:
A couple of things. First we know that Republicans have planS, so the issue isn't that they don't have a plan, but have not agreed on a single one. It took democrats over a year to pass the junk they did, shouldn't we be a little more patient than a month?

The task is pretty hard. There are a couple of things that most people like. Pre-existing conditions being the biggie for most people. Expanded Medicare for the working poor. Plus there were a bunch of non healthcare related taxes to pay for this so repealing ACA also means loss of revenues.

So this is a large task. ACA has proven to be a disaster. I think Democrats understood this, thus put the popular things first and when the **** hit the fan expected to redo it, probably with single payer. Thus the loss of Hillary was so devastating to Obama.

I hope these folks take a little more time and get something closer to correct this time.
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I do agree with you, but the point is that they've had seven years. I always wondered why they didn't use Medicare for the pre-existing conditions model. That's what Medicare is after all. It makes no difference what pre-existing conditions one has. When one hits 65, they are automatically on Medicare.

But I do mostly agree with you on where we are now.
 
fmw said:
Of course the republicans will fail. They plan to replace obamacare. Anything that leaves government managing health insurance will fail miserably. We already know that. Yes they will pay for it at the polls.
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No we don't know that there are many examples that show your statement to be false
 
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