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Trump claims systemic privilege exists.

Groogrux said:
No I won't deny that. It's gotten better. But we really won't approach equal opportunity until we address the issues in students home environment. Going to the best schools and/or going to school with white kids isn't going to fix that or compensate for it.
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We're interested in equal opportunity not equal outcome. Besides, the home environment is largely dependent on the existence (or lack thereof) of equal opportunity regarding the previous generation. Again, let's not characterize blacks according to a statistically insignificant number of gang members in the sub-population.
 
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ludin said:
that is the bigger issue. most kids come from broken homes with only 1 parent. that parent usually works 2 or 3 jobs sometimes because they themselves don't have the education.
they can't usually help their kids with their home work or are too tired to help. that or they don't see an importance.

it is an issue that you cannot fix with money. it is a mindset that has to change culturally. that in and of itself is not easy to do.
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Unfortunately we don't have enough people that are willing to admit that because it destroys their agenda.
 
ecofarm said:
In a teacher-parent conference today, Trump said (and I quote, from Fox News video coverage of the conference): "it's [education initiatives] not working out and we're gonna change it around, ESPECIALLY for the African American communities. It's been very very tough and UNFAIR. I know that's a priority and certainly a priority of mine."

Claiming that blacks are treated unfairly in the educational system is clearly claiming that systemic privilege exists. A group being treated unfairly by the or a system is the definition of systemic privilege. Will conservatives (or perhaps more fairly, the conservative fringe) embrace his revelation and accept that systemic privilege exists?
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I would argue that the failure affects both black and white. The issue is crap schools in communities of high poverty, crime, and parental apathy. Black kids in my school district do fine. But, of course, we have none of the big three problems listed above.
 
calamity said:
I would argue that the failure affects both black and white. The issue is crap schools in communities of high poverty, crime, and parental apathy. Black kids in my school district do fine. But, of course, we have none of the big three problems listed above.
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Those problems are to some extent a result of a lack of equal opportunity, making the problem Trump identifies a cycle.
 
ecofarm said:
Those problems are to some extent a result of a lack of equal opportunity, making the problem Trump identifies a cycle.
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It's clearly a cycle. But, I'd argue that schools in the blackest parts of Chicago are no worse than those in white West Virginia's poorest counties. In fact, they may actually be better.
 
iguanaman said:
This is consistent with his populist rhetoric but his choice of dept. of Education head belies the message. She wishes to gut the public schools system in favor of private charter schools that will be segregated. Segregation was the most damaging policy of all to the education of blacks.
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Yet that very system of public education helped get us to the point that we live in a privileged society. Education was supposed to create that but it hasn't. Ergo, gut it,
 
Well, at this point it doesn't appear that any self-described conservatives have responded. But I would think you are right and most conservatives would agree with Trump. Contrary to the bigoted stereotype that conservatives are racists and deplorables most would understand that the country would be better off if everyone was educated and industrious. And most understand that public schools are terrible and are not educating most of their students.
BTW, Trump did not say, at least in your quote, anything about privilege existing. Just that African Americans were hurt by some government policies.
 
calamity said:
It's clearly a cycle. But, I'd argue that schools in the blackest parts of Chicago are no worse than those in white West Virginia's poorest counties. In fact, they may actually be better.
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Equal opportunity is a problem in more than just schools. Let's not pretend Trump has noted an isolated problem.

Eric7216 said:
BTW, Trump did not say, at least in your quote, anything about privilege existing. Just that African Americans were hurt by some government policies.
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Being treated unfairly, outside legal and institutional policy, is the definition of systemic privilege. Trump did not claim legal or institutional racism. Do you believe Trump claimed racism exists legally or institutionally?
 
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ecofarm said:
Equal opportunity is a problem in more than just schools. Let's not pretend Trump has noted an isolated problem.

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It depends on where you want to go with it. I mean, sure. We can all agree that racism exists, and we should all understand that there are some clear disadvantages to being Black in America. But, would I rather be a poor white schmuck in small-town West Virginia than Beyonce and Jayz? Hell no. Give me Lebron's life over my own any freaking day.
 
ecofarm said:
Incorrect. Systemic privilege does not require legal or institutional (policy) unjust discrimination. Systemic privilege is a sociological and not legal or policy concept. It merely requires that unfair treatment exists, socially, regardless of law or institutional policy. Trump has stated that unfair treatment exists, specifically regarding black communities; he was not referring to legal or policy unfairness (as that does not explicitly exist).

Are you claiming that Trump asserted legal or institutional policy unfairness exists for blacks?
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Blacks as a group have been the victim of centuries of systematic legal and institutional slavery and discrimination based solely on the color of their skin. If they can be discriminated and abused based solely on their skin color like that for so long, they can be helped for a little while based solely on their skin color. It's only fair.
 
calamity said:
It depends on where you want to go with it. I mean, sure. We can all agree that racism exists, and we should all understand that there are some clear disadvantages to being Black in America. But, would I rather be a poor white schmuck in small-town West Virginia than Beyonce and Jayz? Hell no. Give me Lebron's life over my own any freaking day.
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No one is claiming that blacks cannot succeed. No one is claiming that all blacks have a lower standard of living than all whites. Systemic privilege is about it being more difficult for blacks to succeed. This is why nonsense such as "but we had a black president!!", in regard to systemic privilege, is meaningless.


ataraxia said:
Blacks as a group have been the victim of centuries of systematic legal and institutional slavery and discrimination based solely on the color of their skin. If they can be discriminated and abused based solely on their skin color like that for so long, they can be helped for a little while based solely on their skin color. It's only fair.
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Well, affirmative action and other initiatives to correct societal wrongs is not based upon past events (although those events are relevant to the current situation). Equal opportunity initiatives are intended to address current, on-going, unjust discrimination that exists (systemic privilege).
 
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ecofarm said:
No one is claiming that blacks cannot succeed. No one is claiming that all blacks have a lower standard of living than all whites. Systemic privilege is about it being more difficult for blacks to succeed. This is why nonsense such as "but we had a black president!!" is meaningless.
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I don't see any argument worth making that denies it is more difficult for blacks, in general, to succeed. Of course it is.

Blacks are more likely to be born into poverty, experience violence, be incarcerated, live in homes which are headed by a single parent, go to schools which are in shambles and graduate fewer than half their freshmen, etc. They are less likely to inherit wealth, start businesses, have connections which can push them ahead or receive legacy points when applying to higher institutions of learning. So, of course, the statistical odds are stacked against them.

But, try to convince some toothless schlepp living in the hills of Kentucky that he has white privilege, and be sure to invite me so I can watch you try to sell that.
 
calamity said:
But, try to convince some toothless schlepp living in the hills of Kentucky that he has white privilege, and be sure to invite me so I can watch you try to sell that.
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The most difficult part is convincing said toothless that racism is at the heart of the matter.
 
ecofarm said:
The most difficult part is convincing said toothless that racism is at the heart of the matter.
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I don't know about that. Of course, racism exists, and it is exceptionally unfair. Even the super-achievers like Michael Jordan, Barack Obama, Larry Wilmore, Neil deGrasse Tyson, etc have all experienced said racism many times in their lives. It's a terrible thing which can cause deep pain. But, life is not fair. The guy born in the hills probably has less opportunity to climb out of it than does someone born in a crime infested inner city neighborhood.
 
calamity said:
I don't know about that. Of course, racism exists, and it is exceptionally unfair. Even the super-achievers like Michael Jordan, Barack Obama, Larry Wilmore, Neil deGrasse Tyson, etc have all experienced said racism many times in their lives. It's a terrible thing which can cause deep pain. But, life is not fair. The guy born in the hills probably has less opportunity to climb out of it than does someone born in a crime infested inner city neighborhood.
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The (white) guy born in the hills, committing exactly the same crime, has a far less chance of being imprisoned and, if imprisoned, will serve a far lesser sentence. He will not be racially discriminated against when trying to get a job or a house.

Equal treatment regarding the justice system, employment and housing does not exist and that privilege benefits whites.
 
ecofarm said:
The (white) guy born in the hills, committing exactly the same crime, has a far less chance of being imprisoned and, if imprisoned, will serve a far lesser sentence. He will not be racially discriminated against when trying to get a job or a house.

Equal treatment regarding the justice system, employment and housing does not exist and that privilege benefits whites.
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The white guy abusing prescription drugs will certainly face less consequence than the black one smoking crack; the white student in NowhereVille most definitely will not face nearly the same risk of being shot when walking to school as does the Black kid; the white guy who grabs a toy gun off the shelf at WalMart will not be killed by police as quickly as the black guy, and the white kid in a hoodie walking home from the 7-11 with a bag of Skittles will not end up with a George Zimmerman following him around, shooting him dead and getting off Scott-free.

Unlike Black folk, I'm sure the white guy will have no problem getting an apartment, a job or scholarship, even if he has a criminal record or spotty credit. Evidence does seem to suggest just that. And if a white guy commits some horrific crime, chances are pretty good no one will copy his mugshot and paste it all over social media along with snarky comments and racist innuendo like they do when a Black guy does same.

We agree in principle. Where we disagree is in just how much all this really plays a part in success or failure, as compared to other factors. For example, Asians who are also the target of much hate and racism seem to overachieve. As a group, they outperform whites. How come they can overcome all that systemic crap? I think it's because they have a culture which refuses to make or accept excuses. Instead, they demand excellence of their children and of themselves.
 
calamity said:
The white guy abusing prescription drugs will certainly face less consequence than the black one smoking crack; the white student in NowhereVille most definitely will not face nearly the same risk of being shot when walking to school as does the Black kid; the white guy who grabs a toy gun off the shelf at WalMart will not be killed by police as quickly as the black guy, and the white kid in a hoodie walking home from the 7-11 with a bag of Skittles will not end up with a George Zimmerman following him around, shooting him dead and getting off Scott-free.
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I was referring to cases of the same records and same crime. A mountain of statistical evidence proves blacks are more often convicted and receive longer sentences.

Unlike Black folk, I'm sure the white guy will have no problem getting an apartment, a job or scholarship, even if he has a criminal record or spotty credit. Evidence does seem to suggest just that.
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Even with clean records and identical education and resumes, blacks are not treated fairly as a group. Evidence does not merely suggest, it's mountainous and conclusive.

And if a white guy commits some horrific crime, chances are pretty good no one will copy his mugshot and paste it all over social media along with snarky comments and racist innuendo like they do when a Black guy does same.
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We see that right here plenty. I made a thread about it: https://www.debatepolitics.com/conspiracy-theories/191326-race-war.html

We agree in principle. Where we disagree is in just how much all this really plays a part in success or failure, as compared to other factors. For example, Asians who are also the target of much hate and racism seem to overachieve. As a group, they outperform whites. How come they can overcome all that systemic crap? I think it's because they have a culture which refuses to make or accept excuses. Instead, they demand excellence of their children and of themselves.
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There are as many or more Asian gang members than black. Asian organized crime and human trafficking is of unparalleled scale. You're ignoring a majority of Asians (including criminals and average citizens) in deference to a stereotype.
 
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