What is behind Trump’s travel ban executive order?[W:78]

Re: What is behind Trump’s travel ban executive order?

Reed95 said:

What is behind Trump’s travel ban executive order? If anyone believes it is the national security, he or she is kidding himself.

Without getting into details, we all know, there is no compelling reasons to impose such a sweeping ban on those groups of people to entry US, and on refugees overall. Not before, not at this time. Not for a short term, and definitely not for long run.

Why then the executive order? Because it’s Trump. It’s in his bone: fear mongering, intolerant, narrow- minded, and very much racist. Remember the birther lie Trump actively clung to for years against President Obama?

Trump also did it for political reasons. During election campaign, he called for a ban of Muslims entering US, to appeal to swaths of voters. In the first weeks after becoming the President, he rushed to sign this “no Muslim ban” travel ban, without much consideration of real consequences. Many Trump voters were pleased.

Click to expand...

The travel ban is a list of countries compiled by Obama and a travel ban identical to what Obama did at least twice. Obama stated in his first book he was born in Kenya, why not just take his word for it.

Re: What is behind Trump’s travel ban executive order?

Casca XV said:

The travel ban is a list of countries compiled by Obama and a travel ban

Click to expand...

A list of countries from which no terrorists attacked the USA.

Casca XV said:

identical to what Obama did at least twice.

Click to expand...

False, Obama never BANNED countries. He had strong vetting that slowed down immigration, but it's a lie to say he banned whole countries.

Casca XV said:

Obama stated in his first book he was born in Kenya, why not just take his word for it.

Click to expand...

That's the biggest lie on this whole message board. Completely false.

Damn!!! Wow.

Re: What is behind Trump’s travel ban executive order?

Moderator's Warning:

It's getting heated in here. Y'all need to dial it back a bit. Stop the baiting and personal comments.

Re: What is behind Trump’s travel ban executive order?

(this only answers a portion of @NotreDame's reply)

On it's face, 8 USC 1182 f (https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCOD...11-title8-chap12-subchapII-partII-sec1182.htm) gives the President this power:

Suspension of entry or imposition of restrictions by President

Whenever the President finds that the entry of any aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, he may by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or nonimmigrants, or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate. Whenever the Attorney General finds that a commercial airline has failed to comply with regulations of the Attorney General relating to requirements of airlines for the detection of fraudulent documents used by passengers traveling to the United States (including the training of personnel in such detection), the Attorney General may suspend the entry of some or all aliens transported to the United States by such airline.

Click to expand...

The arguments against this statute would be:

• The law is unconstitutional on its face because Congress can't delegate its Constitutional right to the President. If you accept that the Constitution grants Congress a say in pausing immigration (under Article 1 Section 8 and Article 2 Section 2 of the Constitution), they can't give up this right via statute. The Gramm-Rudman-Hollings balanced budget bill had the opposite problem: quoting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramm–Rudman–Hollings_Balanced_Budget_Act#Legacy
  
  

  The process for determining the amount of the automatic cuts was found unconstitutional in the case of Bowsher v. Synar, (478 U.S. 714 (1986)) as an unconstitutional usurpation of executive power by Congress

  Click to expand...

  
  which is why we'd need an amendment for balanced budgets, not just a law.
  
  You could argue 8 USC 1182 f usurps Congress' power to determine who can enter the country. In particular, the statute was passed in 1999, and today's Congress is made up of very different people, and the 1999 Congress can't force the 2017 Congress to give up its Constitutional right to determine who can enter the country.
  
  I believe this is what the 9th Circuit meant by a "congressionally enumerated standard": a law banning specific "enumerated" aliens would be Constitutional, but a law granting the President complete power on deciding which aliens are "banned" would not be.
  
  Of course, the President could "ban" a group of aliens temporarily as an emergency measure, but 90 days is a long time for an emergency measure, and it's hard to argue there was an actual emergency. Had the President immediately appealed to Congress to pass a law supporting his executive order and Congress had passed such a law, Trump would be on much firmer ground.
  
  
• The law is Constitutional in general, but can be applied unconstitutionally. I believe this is the argument the immigrants' lawyers were making. If the law is used to ban members of a single religion (which is what Trump claimed, even though it wasn't the actual effect of the EO), it could be considered as favoring or "establishing" all other religions.
  
  In a way, this argument seems weak: even if we ban one religion, there are still plenty of other religions, so banning Islam doesn't really "establish" any other religion.
  
  However, allowing the President to ban immigration from one religion opens the door to banning immigration from other religions, until only one or two religions are left, effectively "establishing" them.
  
  It reminds me of the innocent sounding Supreme Court decision that natural-born American citizens of certain ancestry could be prohibited from entering certain locations. While you think it'd be used to stop people from entering buildings or whatever, it was, of course, the judgment to justify Japanese and German internment: the 'certain locations' was simply expanded to include 'all of the United States except these internment camps'.

Re: What is behind Trump’s travel ban executive order?

Astonished said:

Instead of spewing a ton of insults, read the link, learn how vetting works. If there are no records for the person, they fail the vetting process and are not allowed entry.

https://obamawhitehouse.archives.go...screening-process-refugee-entry-united-states

Click to expand...

And if the documents are forged?

There are MILLIONS of illegal aliens living in the US right this minute on forged documents that the system fails to identify.

CA Senate President Pro Tem Kevin De Leon (D-Los Angeles) decided to admit that “half of his family” is residing in the United States illegally and with the possession of falsified Social Security Cards and green cards. Here is the exact quote:


“…I can tell you half of my family would be eligible for deportation under [President Donald Trump’s] executive order, because if they got a false Social Security card, if they got a false identification, if they got a false driver’s license prior to us passing AB60, if they got a false green card, and anyone who has family members, you know, who are undocumented knows that almost entirely everybody has secured some sort of false identification.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that the DHS is able to cope with the flood of illegal immigration when the fact is they are not.

Of course none of the facts matter to you, because your agenda is to undermine the laws and principals of the United States to the demise of the American people.

Re: What is behind Trump’s travel ban executive order?

jdog said:

There are MILLIONS of illegal aliens living in the US right this minute on forged documents that the system fails to identify.

Click to expand...

This appears to be true, but most of them are from Mexico or other parts of Central/South America. The 7 country travel ban wouldn't have affected them. This thread is about the "Muslim ban", not immigration in general.

Of course none of the facts matter to you, because your agenda is to undermine the laws and principals of the United States to the demise of the American people.

Click to expand...

Well, the demise of SOME American people, that's for sure.

Re: What is behind Trump’s travel ban executive order?

barrycarter said:

This appears to be true, but most of them are from Mexico or other parts of Central/South America. The 7 country travel ban wouldn't have affected them. This thread is about the "Muslim ban", not immigration in general.



Well, the demise of SOME American people, that's for sure.

Click to expand...

Intelligence agencies claim their are sleeper cells of terrorists in almost every city in America, they all were admitted with false identification because they could not enter using their own identity.

Re: What is behind Trump’s travel ban executive order?

jdog said:

Intelligence agencies claim their are sleeper cells of terrorists in almost every city in America, they all were admitted with false identification because they could not enter using their own identity.

Click to expand...

OK, but the 7 country travel ban still wouldn't have affected them. If their false identification fooled ICE, they wouldn't be treated as though they were coming from the 7 "banned" countries. In fact, this is almost an argument that nation-specific "bans" don't really work.

Re: What is behind Trump’s travel ban executive order?

barrycarter said:

OK, but the 7 country travel ban still wouldn't have affected them. If their false identification fooled ICE, they wouldn't be treated as though they were coming from the 7 "banned" countries. In fact, this is almost an argument that nation-specific "bans" don't really work.

Click to expand...

You are missing the entire point of the ban. The ban is not to permanently stop immigration, it is to give ICE time to review and improve their vetting process. You would think that would be something every American would support as it is for their own protection.

Re: What is behind Trump’s travel ban executive order?

jdog said:

You are missing the entire point of the ban. The ban is not to permanently stop immigration, it is to give ICE time to review and improve their vetting process.

Click to expand...

But it would only pause immigration from those 7 countries. If someone faked id and appeared to be from a different country, the pause wouldn't delay them. That's the point you made: if dangerous people are getting in on fake credentials that don't come from those 7 countries, you'd have to pause ALL immigration and vette everyone claiming to be from ANY country on the off chance they were from a dangerous country but had faked documents.

You would think that would be something every American would support as it is for their own protection.

Click to expand...

I'm guessing you've never even visited America. This makes no sense:

• There's no reason to believe this pause makes us safer. It might even increase the risk of terrorism.
• Like all good Americans, I don't trust the government. If the government says "it's for your own good", that doesn't mean it is. Our government is the greatest source of terrorism, and we can't count on them to protect us from it.
• Freedom is more important that protection. Americans die for freedom. Traitors choose safety over freedom. Any American who supports this ban for purposes of protection over freedom deserves to be executed.

Re: What is behind Trump’s travel ban executive order?

barrycarter said:

But it would only pause immigration from those 7 countries. If someone faked id and appeared to be from a different country, the pause wouldn't delay them. That's the point you made: if dangerous people are getting in on fake credentials that don't come from those 7 countries, you'd have to pause ALL immigration and vette everyone claiming to be from ANY country on the off chance they were from a dangerous country but had faked documents.


I'm guessing you've never even visited America. This makes no sense:

• There's no reason to believe this pause makes us safer. It might even increase the risk of terrorism.
• Like all good Americans, I don't trust the government. If the government says "it's for your own good", that doesn't mean it is. Our government is the greatest source of terrorism, and we can't count on them to protect us from it.
• Freedom is more important that protection. Americans die for freedom. Traitors choose safety over freedom. Any American who supports this ban for purposes of protection over freedom deserves to be executed.

Click to expand...

This has to be some of the most inbred reasoning I have ever heard. OK let's have it your way and just open the borders to everyone and not vet anyone. That will make the country much safer. :slapme:

Re: What is behind Trump’s travel ban executive order?

jdog said:

OK let's have it your way and just open the borders to everyone and not vet anyone. That will make the country much safer. :slapme:

Click to expand...

Just to clarify for the hard-of-reading, I support equal vetting for all immigrants: as you yourself pointed out, many "terrorist cell" immigrants come (or appear to come) from countries other than those seven. I also support requiring immigrants to support themselves (or have someone already in the USA support them). My overall feeling is that refugees tend not to like the country they're leaving, and more wealthy immigrants tend to use money and political power (not terrorism) to further their goals (not necessarily better, but still not terrorism).

Re: What is behind Trump’s travel ban executive order?

barrycarter said:

Just to clarify for the hard-of-reading, I support equal vetting for all immigrants: as you yourself pointed out, many "terrorist cell" immigrants come (or appear to come) from countries other than those seven. I also support requiring immigrants to support themselves (or have someone already in the USA support them). My overall feeling is that refugees tend not to like the country they're leaving, and more wealthy immigrants tend to use money and political power (not terrorism) to further their goals (not necessarily better, but still not terrorism).

Click to expand...

And how do you vet a immigrant from a failed state?

Re: What is behind Trump’s travel ban executive order?

jdog said:

And how do you vet a immigrant from a failed state?

Click to expand...

Wikipedia does have a page defining the concept of a "failed state" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failed_state and even some criteria for what constitutes one, but the criteria are subjective (even when you use a quantitative calculation) and there's no accepted definition of what a "failed state" is or which sovereign entities constitute "failed states".

If you accept the list at The Fragile States Index 2015 | The Fund for Peace (and there's no reason you should), you'll see it different considerably from Trump's 7 country list.

Re: What is behind Trump’s travel ban executive order?

jdog said:

This has to be some of the most inbred reasoning I have ever heard. OK let's have it your way and just open the borders to everyone and not vet anyone. That will make the country much safer. :slapme:

Click to expand...

This 7 nation exclusion from entree is just the beginning od Trump's Make America Great Again Agenda.

The Democrats have been importing foreigners and promising citizenship in exchange for political support.
They are crapping their pants now because they did not foresee a Republican president that wasn’t beholden
to cheap labor interests. They were unwilling to compromise because they thought they could get everything
they wanted as long as they let the establishment Republicans pretend to oppose amnesty for a few years.
Now there’s no room for compromise as they’ve labeled everyone who isn’t in favor of unrestricted immigration a
“racist, fascist, nazi”. So they are backed into a corner, expect them to act accordingly.

Re: What is behind Trump’s travel ban executive order?

barrycarter said:

Wikipedia does have a page defining the concept of a "failed state" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failed_state and even some criteria for what constitutes one, but the criteria are subjective (even when you use a quantitative calculation) and there's no accepted definition of what a "failed state" is or which sovereign entities constitute "failed states".

If you accept the list at The Fragile States Index 2015 | The Fund for Peace (and there's no reason you should), you'll see it different considerably from Trump's 7 country list.

Click to expand...

Really? You need Wikipedia to tell you that it is damn near impossible to vet someone when the country is blown to crap, all the records have been destroyed, and there is no government to speak of?