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ANTIFA/Black Bloc Anarchists are not revolutionary leftists.

Fenton said:
Healthcare is not a " right ". Rights are limitations, protections not mandates on citizens to give up more of their income and give the Federal Govt more power.

If all those Veterans who languished on hidden waiting list for years without care had a " right " to healthcare, who's being held accountable for violating their rights ?

No one, not one person was held accountable for the VA scandal. The only good that came out of the VA scandal is it showed millions of Americans just how incompenent, corrupt and unaccountable Govt Healthcare can be.

If the US Govt treated our Vets like that, then how would they treat our children, parents, siblings, etc under a Single payer system ? And if something did happen to one of our family members, who would be held accountable ?
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It's not rocket science. There's different systems all over the developed world- pick one that works the way you want and copy it.
 
Fenton said:
Oh Cmon, you can do better than that.

The Conservatives I know can explain in detail why Socialized medicine and " free education " are horrible ideas without resorting to ridiculous hyperbole.

No, usually its Sanders and his supporters who in a attempt to misrepresent their opinions and position as mainstream draw ridiculous comparisons to some sinister Soviet example..as if that helps their argument.

And the existence of Socialism anywhere on the face of the earth doesnt justify applying it here.
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We should also provide free tuition to all public universities because its an investment in our society. Offer someone an opportunity to get an education and they take it. You think people like working crappy jobs? If you invest in the future it has a big return. The big return being an educated work force that has high paying jobs.. tax payers with better jobs is a good thing.

We should use a combination of a speculation tax on Wall St. and cutting the Defense budget to provide free college to our young people.
 
Winston said:
We should also provide free tuition to all public universities because its an investment in our society. Offer someone an opportunity to get an education and they take it. You think people like working crappy jobs? If you invest in the future it has a big return. The big return being an educated work force that has high paying jobs.. tax payers with better jobs is a good thing.

We should use a combination of a speculation tax on Wall St. and cutting the Defense budget to provide free college to our young people.
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We should end public universities, not pay for students to go there. People can also buy their own services if they want them. If they can't afford them then they can find people willing to help them. Stop trying to get unwilling parties to join your causes.

And why does liberal rhetoric always end with more taxes? You could have just stopped at higher paying jobs, but no, you just had to say how the government would benefit from it too.
 
Henrin said:
We should end public universities, not pay for students to go there. People can also buy their own services if they want them. If they can't afford them then they can find people willing to help them. Stop trying to get unwilling parties to join your causes.
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Are you not at all in favor of creating a robust force of educated, tax-paying Americans with great jobs?
 
Winston said:
Are you not at all in favor of creating a robust force of educated, tax-paying Americans with great jobs?
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I'm not in favor of having government involved in education. You might not realize this, but I want to go the opposite direction than you.
 
Henrin said:
I'm not in favor of having government involved in education. You might not realize this, but I want to go the opposite direction than you.
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Your solution is if you can't afford tough s***. You don't see how this sets a society up for continued failure. Politicians already don't know what to do to fight poverty. So, they build private prisons and criminalize the poverty. They turn what they don't understand into a profitable business.

If we invest in our communities by offering free university tuition it has a return by creating stronger tax payers.

It also saves people in the ghettos. It also saves people from working min. wage jobs through education. The same min. wage jobs that conservatives argue are not supposed to be careers but, conservatives are unwilling to raise the wage of those jobs and unwilling to provide education out of those jobs.
 
Winston said:
Your solution is if you can't afford tough s***. You don't see how this sets a society up for continued failure. Politicians already don't know what to do to fight poverty. So, they build private prisons and criminalize the poverty. They turn what they don't understand into a profitable business.

If we invest in our communities by offering free university tuition it has a return by creating stronger tax payers.

It also saves people in the ghettos. It also saves people from working min. wage jobs through education. The same min. wage jobs that conservatives argue are not supposed to be careers but, conservatives are unwilling to raise the wage of those jobs and unwilling to provide education out of those jobs.
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I don't think politicians should be fighting poverty. My idea is that the government should protect people from aggression and punish aggressors, while leaving things like this to the people.

Also, conservatives don't agree with minimum wage laws, so it's expected that they won't want to raise minimum wage.
 
Henrin said:
I don't think politicians should be fighting poverty. My idea is that the government should protect people from aggression and punish aggressors, while leaving things like this to the people.

Also, conservatives don't agree with minimum wage laws, so it's expected that they won't want to raise minimum wage.
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But, we are not going back to the pre-New Deal era of government. Sorry. It's not going to happen. Government is involved in our lives now. When FDR interpreted the elastic clause to include social spending, he opened the doors for a free college government spending program. If you are going to make a constitutional argument that the elastic clause creates unconstitutional government agencies. Then you have to disband the government agencies that interfere with the reserved powers. Law Enforcement is a great example of a reserved power that has a federal agency. If you argue that Law Enforcement is a power reserved to the states. Then you must be in favor of abolishing the FBI because it is a federal agency.

Sorry man, I'd love to establish a confederacy again but, I don't see it happening.
 
Fenton said:
Healthcare is not a " right ". Rights are limitations, protections not mandates on citizens to give up more of their income and give the Federal Govt more power.

If all those Veterans who languished on hidden waiting list for years without care had a " right " to healthcare, who's being held accountable for violating their rights ?

No one, not one person was held accountable for the VA scandal. The only good that came out of the VA scandal is it showed millions of Americans just how incompenent, corrupt and unaccountable Govt Healthcare can be.

If the US Govt treated our Vets like that, then how would they treat our children, parents, siblings, etc under a Single payer system ? And if something did happen to one of our family members, who would be held accountable ?
Click to expand...


Not where you live, no. Health care is NOT a right, but the ability to carry a weapon designed to slaughter hundreds is. Simply because Americans have their priorities so far up their digestive systems doesn't mean what America does is right. In fact, the US is the only developed nation that puts ownership of lethal weapons ahead of almost everything else.

Here, we have a right to health care, and doom will befall any politician who tries to change that.

You are alone in the world in your gun religion, but being alone like that is usually an indication you are out of step with the rest of the world. And you are...tearing up agreements, creating panic over terrorist attacks that never happened while the greatest death toll in the nation comes from Americans against Americans.

Just because you are big AND stupid does not make you right...in this case it makes you a ****ing joke...the greatest nation on earth killing itself with guns and drugs and blaming it on Muslims.

REMEMBER BOWLING GREEN!
 
I understand completely why now Collectivist Anarchy is beginning to seem more and more appealing. If Trump getting the Presidency is such a crisis flashpoint, then maybe the current problem is the Presidency itself - not Trump alone. The White House and Congress have been rogue factions of the United States Federal Government for a long time now, this didn't start with Trump winning the election.
 
Kurmugeon said:
Typical of the Left, use coercive force when you can't get a governing consensus.

-
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Well, just a moments thought would tell you that the governing consensus comes first. 'Course, that'd deprive you of the chance to be snide and nasty and grossly partisan and who knows, once started, thinking might become a habit. Couldn't have that.
 
Winston said:
The American left is pathetic. Single-payer health care and free college considered "far left, pie-in-the-sky radicalism" in American politics would be considered moderate/centrist positions in Europe. But, right wingers are trained to think that National Healthcare brings us 1 step closer to the Bolshevik revolution. After WWII, the U.S.S.R. controlled half of Europe while fascism had pummeled the Western side. Europe was in shambles. Our politicians were preparing for a decades long fight of capitalism against communism. The FBI and CIA's primary purpose was to stop Communism from spreading. American anti-communist propaganda, so poisoned the political canon against leftists, that someone like Bernie Sanders is considered a radical. A leftist would look at Bernie's campaign as "cute" as they thumbed through a dusty copy of Karl Marx's Das Capital.

The right's attempt to link ANTIFA to the left is tenuous at best. ANTIFA's stated objectives are: "To fight fascism, xenophobia, and racism" Expect them to show up if Bannon give a speech somewhere. Or, if Jeff Sessions does something xenophobic as AG. Expect them to be a thorn in Trump's side whenever he governs in a way that disenfranchises minorities. But, don't link them to the left politically. People out there rioting and setting trash cans on fire, aren't doing it to achieve a political objective. They're wannabe freedom fighters.

Radical left organizations dissolved in the 1980s. The last one to push for leftist politics were the Weather Underground, a radical sect of the SDS. Their objective was to overthrow the government and implement a Marxist "dictatorship of the proletariat. March 1st. 1971. the Capitol building is bombed by the Weather Underground. May 19. 1972 The Pentagon is bombed. Putting ANTIFA on the level of the Weather Underground is effective propaganda. It fits the right's narrative of dissent against Trumpian politics is violent and dangerous.

The history of the SDS is interesting and ensconced in radical leftist politics. America recognized a threat in the Weather Underground and they were imprisoned and dissolved by the 1980's. The right's attempt to put ANTIFA on a level of violence as a radical leftist organization such as them, allows the right to condemn protests and demonstrations against Trumpian politics.
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even as rants go, that sucks.

Hey, did you know that the Exited States is the ONLY industrialized nation that has no national health care?

But you do have the highest murder rate.

That's what I call great leadership
 
Winston said:
But, we are not going back to the pre-New Deal era of government. Sorry. It's not going to happen. Government is involved in our lives now. When FDR interpreted the elastic clause to include social spending, he opened the doors for a free college government spending program. If you are going to make a constitutional argument that the elastic clause creates unconstitutional government agencies. Then you have to disband the government agencies that interfere with the reserved powers. Law Enforcement is a great example of a reserved power that has a federal agency. If you argue that Law Enforcement is a power reserved to the states. Then you must be in favor of abolishing the FBI because it is a federal agency.

Sorry man, I'd love to establish a confederacy again but, I don't see it happening.
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Then I have no reason to give you anything either. What I want is to undo the new deal and I have zero interest to continue giving you anything, period.
 
Fearandloathing said:
Not where you live, no. Health care is NOT a right, but the ability to carry a weapon designed to slaughter hundreds is. Simply because Americans have their priorities so far up their digestive systems doesn't mean what America does is right. In fact, the US is the only developed nation that puts ownership of lethal weapons ahead of almost everything else.
Click to expand...

Guns are property and last time I checked property is a right. Frankly the second amendment isn't even needed since property is already a right.
 
Winston said:
We should also provide free tuition to all public universities because its an investment in our society. Offer someone an opportunity to get an education and they take it. You think people like working crappy jobs? If you invest in the future it has a big return. The big return being an educated work force that has high paying jobs.. tax payers with better jobs is a good thing.

We should use a combination of a speculation tax on Wall St. and cutting the Defense budget to provide free college to our young people.
Click to expand...

First, nothing is free, stop being naive, second youre just repeating Sanders talking points, which always seem to lack depth and substance.

As if substantial tax increases on the Middle class to pay every High Schools gaduates tuition and increased Govt authority to intervene in the private sector economy would translate to a booming economy filled with highly educated workers and new streams of Govt revenue.
Socialist have little concept of how Free market economies function let alone what grows those economies leading to " High paying " jobs.
Sanders has no idea what he's talking about.
Next, low income students already have access to grants and subsisidies and College isnt for everyone. Believe it or not some kids go directly into the workforce and do quite well.

Next, Universities aroud the Nation seem to be more interested in exposing their students to Left wing propaganda and Social justice narratives than emphasizing the Socratic method so its no surprise Sanders advocates pushing as many kids as possible into some of these Schools.
 
Fearandloathing said:
even as rants go, that sucks.

Hey, did you know that the Exited States is the ONLY industrialized nation that has no national health care?

But you do have the highest murder rate.

That's what I call great leadership
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:roll: People killing each other is not the governments fault. The government is responsible for things it does, not what some random thug does in some liberal city somewhere. If you want to place blame for the murder rate then place it on the murderers.
 
Fenton said:
First, nothing is free, stop being naive, second youre just repeating Sanders talking points, which always seem to lack depth and substance.

As if substantial tax increases on the Middle class to pay every High Schools gaduates tuition and increased Govt authority to intervene in the private sector economy would translate to a booming economy filled with highly educated workers and new streams of Govt revenue.
Socialist have little concept of how Free market economies function let alone what grows those economies leading to " High paying " jobs.
Sanders has no idea what he's talking about.
Next, low income students already have access to grants and subsisidies and College isnt for everyone. Believe it or not some kids go directly into the workforce and do quite well.

Next, Universities aroud the Nation seem to be more interested in exposing their students to Left wing propaganda and Social justice narratives than emphasizing the Socratic method so its no surprise Sanders advocates pushing as many kids as possible into some of these Schools.
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Nothing is free... Okay.. What you don't understand is tax money is OUR money. It's a collective agreement to use government spending to benefit society. And nice try - painting me as one of Bernie Sanders sheep. There's nothing wrong with getting your talking points from Bernie Sanders by the way. He's right on most issues.

But, I got this particular thinking on government tax policy and spending programs from Mark Blyth.

Mark Blyth basically says UK welfare and American welfare are enacted in such different ways that the results are dissimilar. Americans use welfare to allow giant corporations to make huge profits by the tax payers subsidizing their labor cost. And UK uses welfare to invest in society that creates a stronger force of educated tax payers that have better jobs that pay more. It's an agreement that I will pay for your schooling because when you're done with your education, you will get a great job that will pay for my health care.
 
Winston said:
Nothing is free... Okay.. What you don't understand is tax money is OUR money. It's a collective agreement to use government spending to benefit society. And nice try - painting me as one of Bernie Sanders sheep. There's nothing wrong with getting your talking points from Bernie Sanders by the way. He's right on most issues.

But, I got this particular thinking on government tax policy and spending programs from Mark Blyth.

Mark Blyth basically says UK welfare and American welfare are enacted in such different ways that the results are dissimilar. Americans use welfare to allow giant corporations to make huge profits by the tax payers subsidizing their labor cost. And UK uses welfare to invest in society that creates a stronger force of educated tax payers that have better jobs that pay more. It's an agreement that I will pay for your schooling because when you're done with your education, you will get a great job that will pay for my health care.
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What if I want to pay for my own healthcare and schooling? Aka...not use people to get me things. I wonder if you can see how your post is actually promoting selfishness and legal plunder.
 
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Winston said:
The American left is pathetic. Single-payer health care and free college considered "far left, pie-in-the-sky radicalism" in American politics would be considered moderate/centrist positions in Europe. But, right wingers are trained to think that National Healthcare brings us 1 step closer to the Bolshevik revolution. After WWII, the U.S.S.R. controlled half of Europe while fascism had pummeled the Western side. Europe was in shambles. Our politicians were preparing for a decades long fight of capitalism against communism. The FBI and CIA's primary purpose was to stop Communism from spreading. American anti-communist propaganda, so poisoned the political canon against leftists, that someone like Bernie Sanders is considered a radical. A leftist would look at Bernie's campaign as "cute" as they thumbed through a dusty copy of Karl Marx's Das Capital.

The right's attempt to link ANTIFA to the left is tenuous at best. ANTIFA's stated objectives are: "To fight fascism, xenophobia, and racism" Expect them to show up if Bannon give a speech somewhere. Or, if Jeff Sessions does something xenophobic as AG. Expect them to be a thorn in Trump's side whenever he governs in a way that disenfranchises minorities. But, don't link them to the left politically. People out there rioting and setting trash cans on fire, aren't doing it to achieve a political objective. They're wannabe freedom fighters.

Radical left organizations dissolved in the 1980s. The last one to push for leftist politics were the Weather Underground, a radical sect of the SDS. Their objective was to overthrow the government and implement a Marxist "dictatorship of the proletariat. March 1st. 1971. the Capitol building is bombed by the Weather Underground. May 19. 1972 The Pentagon is bombed. Putting ANTIFA on the level of the Weather Underground is effective propaganda. It fits the right's narrative of dissent against Trumpian politics is violent and dangerous.

The history of the SDS is interesting and ensconced in radical leftist politics. America recognized a threat in the Weather Underground and they were imprisoned and dissolved by the 1980's. The right's attempt to put ANTIFA on a level of violence as a radical leftist organization such as them, allows the right to condemn protests and demonstrations against Trumpian politics.
Click to expand...

If you really think that every violent protester who wears a black mask is ANTIFA, you're seriously deluded. Most of these people are just rock solid Clinton supporters hiding behind a black mask and some convenient "plausible deniability" for the DNC.
 
After Trump the Left embraced violence to suffocate free speech to a shocking degree, that was always going to bring back memories of lefty violence.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
After Trump the Left embraced violence to suffocate free speech to a shocking degree, that was always going to bring back memories of lefty violence.
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This is classic psychological manipulation. Trump fumes that millions protested his presidency exercising their 1st amendment rights. Conservatives point to a minority of violent activists and say, "look here they hate free speech." You all who are giving Trump the middle finger hate free speech. Time to get a job freedom hater. Classic.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Winston said:
This is classic psychological manipulation. Trump fumes that millions protested his presidency exercising their 1st amendment rights. Conservatives point to a minority of violent activists and say, "look here they hate free speech." You all who are giving Trump the middle finger hate free speech. Time to get a job freedom hater. Classic.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I will tell you the same thing I tell Muslims....If I dont hear public condemnations of violence from you then you do no support my values, because those who claim to speak for you clearly do embrace violence, you are honor bound to disown the claim.

The Left has been damn silent on violence of late.

Sometimes we get some Milquetoast "Violence is not the most effective means" to which I say **** YOU!

Those who think that physical violence has a place in either the arena for the combat of ideas or in politics are bad Americans, FULL STOP.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
I will tell you the same thing I tell Muslims....If I dont hear public condemnations of violence from you then you do no support my values, because those who claim to speak for you clearly do embrace violence, you are honor bound to disown the claim.

The Left has been damn silent on violence of late.

Sometimes we get some Milquetoast "Violence is not the most effective means" to which I say **** YOU!

Those who think that physical violence has a place in either the arena for the combat of ideas or in politics are bad Americans, FULL STOP.
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I've never pushed for violence at protests or rallies. Make love not war. Drop beats not bombs. But, I seem to recall Trump telling his supporters to punch people out.


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Winston said:
I've never pushed for violence at protests or rallies. Make love not war. Drop beats not bombs. But, I seem to recall Trump telling his supporters to punch people out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Trump is 70 years old, with almost nothing in his permanent record record to indicate a violent nature (he might have once made physical contact in anger with a wife, though she never wanted to make a deal of it so I dont either)....that was clearly part of the WWE TRUMP SHOW.
 
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