• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Should borders be open?

blackjack50

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 14, 2011
Messages
26,629
Reaction score
6,661
Location
Florida
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Conservative
I feel like the question that comes up with the trump immigration/refugee debate is notwhether or not we should let people in. I think that a lot of people feel the borders should just be open and we let everyone in. So what do you think? Do you think that should be the ultimate objective?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I haven't seen anyone on this forum support open borders. I think it's stupid to have open borders, and I'm glad that we don't.
 
I haven't seen anyone on this forum support open borders. I think it's stupid to have open borders, and I'm glad that we don't.

The idea is out there:

The Case for Getting Rid of Borders—Completely
No defensible moral framework regards foreigners as less deserving of rights than people born in the right place at the right time.


And while the benefits of cross-border movements are tremendous for the immigrants, they are also significant for those born in destination countries. Immigration unleashes economic forces that raise real wages throughout an economy. New immigrants possess skills different from those of their hosts, and these differences enable workers in both groups to better exploit their special talents and leverage their comparative advantages. The effect is to improve the welfare of newcomers and natives alike. The immigrant who mows the lawn of the nuclear physicist indirectly helps to unlock the secrets of the universe.
The Case for Getting Rid of Borders - The Atlantic

No, we would have swarms of human locusts descending on every place that was better than the rest, and destroying it before moving on to the next. This would be the end of any chance for civilization to succeed.
 
The idea is out there:

The Case for Getting Rid of Borders—Completely
No defensible moral framework regards foreigners as less deserving of rights than people born in the right place at the right time.



The Case for Getting Rid of Borders - The Atlantic

No, we would have swarms of human locusts descending on every place that was better than the rest, and destroying it before moving on to the next. This would be the end of any chance for civilization to succeed.

I know the idea is a real thing. I don't support it. I was replying primarily to the OP because they seemed to imply that anyone who doesn't support the refugee ban just wants open borders.
 
I know the idea is a real thing. I don't support it. I was replying primarily to the OP because they seemed to imply that anyone who doesn't support the refugee ban just wants open borders.

I can see the point, because when you look at the arguments at DP they so often imply that we are crap humans if we tell people from around the world that they should not come, will not come, that we dont want them. The arguments imply that we dont have a right to say no.
 
Ideally all countries would have open borders. And maybe that will be the case in the distant future. But it certainly would be ill advised to have open borders if rest of the countries aren't doing it as well. So at this point in humanity's evolution, no, we are not ready.
 
Ideally all countries would have open borders. And maybe that will be the case in the distant future. But it certainly would be ill advised to have open borders if rest of the countries aren't doing it as well. So at this point in humanity's evolution, no, we are not ready.

This can not possibly work without a global government to go with it.
 
How appropriate... I was just listening to this earlier today. I agree.

In short, I agree that open borders when possible is a good thing. I don't agree that open borders are possible in today's United States.

 
I haven't seen anyone on this forum support open borders. I think it's stupid to have open borders, and I'm glad that we don't.

Well who can be turned away from entering your country? Nobody?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I know the idea is a real thing. I don't support it. I was replying primarily to the OP because they seemed to imply that anyone who doesn't support the refugee ban just wants open borders.

Well that is one of the issues. Should we just take all refugees here in America? At what point can we turn them away? Why is it our duty to take them? If someone comes up with a reason not to take them...why are they awful? The idea that we should just "help them" is one thing as a matter of individuals. It is vastly different as a matter of foreign policy.

It is the same thing with immigration. At what point can we turn people away and why?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Well that is one of the issues. Should we just take all refugees here in America? At what point can we turn them away? Why is it our duty to take them? If someone comes up with a reason not to take them...why are they awful? The idea that we should just "help them" is one thing as a matter of individuals. It is vastly different as a matter of foreign policy.

It is the same thing with immigration. At what point can we turn people away and why?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

We aren't even talking about open borders at this point. We are talking about limited immigration, or acceptance of refugees, against allowing people who are processed through our vetting system to enter the country. My understanding of open borders is that it has no real vetting system in place, and it is essentially uncontrolled. I understand the fear people have of accepting refugees, but I believe that if they go through this nearly 2 year vetting process they should be able to enter the country. If you are upset that people think you are taking a morally questionable stance on the issue it is probably because it is a national security issue and a humanitarian issue. Our national security has checked off on it so in my opinion all that is left is to deal with humanitarian issue.
 
No we should not have open borders. I prefer that we be selective on who comes in to our country.
 
We shouldn't have open borders, but we're too much of ******s to keep anyone out though.
 
Is this true?

Very few Americans want open borders or even easy immigration.

The Media, controlled by the globalists elite, makes it look as though there are massive protests calling for practically open borders.

It's an illusion. The media has a profound effect on people who are easy to deceive.
 
The idea is out there:

The Case for Getting Rid of Borders—Completely
No defensible moral framework regards foreigners as less deserving of rights than people born in the right place at the right time.



The Case for Getting Rid of Borders - The Atlantic

No, we would have swarms of human locusts descending on every place that was better than the rest, and destroying it before moving on to the next. This would be the end of any chance for civilization to succeed.
Your opinion is a pretty good illustration of the divide.

One side says it harms sucess and ultimately deystroys it, which i agree with to a certain extent.

The opposition says it benefits the greater good because it elevates the poor.

Im personally in the middle of these two ideas. I think of it in terms of you dont jump into the water to save a drownig person because chances are you will both end up drowning together. What you do is offer them a pole to grab onto.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
 
Is this true?

Very few Americans want open borders or even easy immigration.

The Media, controlled by the globalists elite, makes it look as though there are massive protests calling for practically open borders.

It's an illusion. The media has a profound effect on people who are easy to deceive.

It is a fair question to ask as people will flock to the far ends of the position just to counter what the perceive as the opposite to their own views. If you agree there is a line...then the question becomes where?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I feel like the question that comes up with the trump immigration/refugee debate is notwhether or not we should let people in. I think that a lot of people feel the borders should just be open and we let everyone in. So what do you think? Do you think that should be the ultimate objective?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think that, at some point for the sake of the future, that yes, borders must become open, at least to labor.

Here is what I mean:

Contrary to popular opinion, the US manufacturing industry didn't take a nose dive because immigrants came in and took our jobs. First of all, you cannot "take" a job. Jobs are given, by employers. If you lose your job to a immigrant, THEY didn't take your job, your employer took your job and gave it to them, but that's another discussion. Back on track: our labor market went tits up not because foreigners came here to the jobs, it is because companies sent the job to foreigners. We lost out jobs to automation, and to China, that is where they went, not to immigrants here.

Now, here is the problem: Capital is not restrained by immigration rules. Capital is free to move around the world seeking the cheapest labor, the most profitable regulatory environment, etc. Your job can pick up and move to Mexico or to China or to Taiwan, but you cannot pick up and follow it, at least not without enormous effort in most cases, and depending on where you are trying to move to/from, sometimes not at all.

And that is the problem. If capital is able to move freely, but labor is not, then prosperous nations will always lose jobs to poor nations where desperate people will accept wages and conditions that people in prosperous nations will not.

So how do you prevent this from happening? How do you get jobs to stay in prosperous nations and keep companies from moving their work to where the labor is cheaper? Well one solution is to just start paying your people in your prosperous nation as little as the people in the poor nation are paid. You bet your butt that if US workers would work 12 hour shifts for $1.75 an hour, a TON of jobs would move back here, but then your nation wouldn't stay prosperous long.

Another option is to force companies to manufacture in the nation they sell to, or at least within the same trade alliance of economically similar nations. A law saying "you can't sell it here unless it was made here" would certainly get the job done, but knowing what I know of business and politics, that will never happen.

Another option is duties and taxes. You can tax companies on goods they sell here but manufacture elsewhere to the point that it is no longer profitable to manufacture elsewhere, and they move the production back here. That also would get the job done.

And lastly, back to the real subject of this thread, you can allow labor to be as fluid as capital. You allow any person to move anywhere they want, and they can stay so long as they get work within say, 12 months of moving and remain employed. Now I know that the initial reaction is "wont that just bring down US wages since these workers will be willing to work for less" and the answer is absolutely yes. In the short term there would be some serious adjusting to do, but in the longer term, what you end up with, when you make labor and capital equally mobile, is a world where there is no incentive to move labor to China, why? Because people in china will no longer work for $1.75 an hour, because they know they can go to Australia or Europe or the USA and make better money. Any company wanting to move their manufacturing to another nation would have to be willing to pay those people enough that they would be willing to stay and not simply move to where wages were better.

Let's just take the Harrier plant that moved to Mexico. If all of those Mexican workers had the option of either taking these $4/hr Harrier jobs, or taking a busride across the border and making at least $10 and hour or more, they will give that harrier plant the finger and move across the border. So in order to actually get workers in Mexico, Harrier has to pay them as much as they would pay in the US, which would probably convince them to just not even move the plant in the first place and keep it in the US.
 
Back
Top Bottom