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Commentary: Why Europe became a baby

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Hawkeye10

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Has Europe been infantilised? Is it now less capable than other regions or nations of determining its future with the force and strength required to preserve the coherent governance and relatively high standards of living that it’s shown since the last war? That war, devastating as it was, seemed to teach a series of lessons on how to avoid more war, grow economies and remain a centre – even, the centre – of world power

Were the lessons wrong? Here are some reasons for asking the question.

For most of the post-war period, the states of Europe, both the majority within the European Union and the few which have remained outside, have been covered by a security umbrella held over our heads by the United States. Earlier this week, a U.S. armoured brigade disembarked in the northern German port of Bremerhaven: it will base itself in Poland, and spread out eastwards next month to the Baltics, Romania and Bulgaria. The tiny Baltic states – Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania – border Russia; the coasts of Romania and Bulgaria are on the Black Sea, which Russia controls
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.Brexit, a shock all around, will combine with a Trump presidency to force the EU to put away childish things, and ask hard questions of itself. Infancy may be ending: always a hard transition.
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Commentary: Why Europe became a baby | Reuters

A really interesting idea here, and about more than this situation. A lot of the problem of Europe today could be said to be caused at root by bad American parenting, to include never wanting and then never allowing them to grow up. What if we had dissolved NATO after the fall of the soviets, forced them to do for themselves, to include paying their own way on defense? Would they be better able to navigate life today? Doesn't this also prove that victim culture in general and coddling in particular is not good for the coddled, that it is more an emotional generator for the one doing to coddling? Europe is a mess. America is a mess. Who won in the end and how much if this mess was caused by NATO?

Lots of great angles here, to include thinking about what a disaster helicopter parenting as been. And why we do it.
 
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Hawkeye10 said:
Commentary: Why Europe became a baby | Reuters

A really interesting idea here, and about more than this situation. A lot of the problem of Europe today could be said to be caused at root by bad American parenting, to include never wanting and then never allowing them to grow up. What if we had dissolved NATO after the fall of the soviets, forced them to do for themselves, to include paying their own way on defense? Would they be better able to navigate life today? Doesn't this also prove that victim culture in general and coddling in particular is not good for the coddled, that it is more an emotional generator for the one doing to coddling? Europe is a mess. America is a mess. Who won in the end and how much if this mess was caused by NATO?

Lots of great angles here, to include thinking about what a disaster helicopter parenting as been. And why we do it.
Click to expand...


The problem is America doesn't want to give up it's European bases. If America truly wants countries like Germany to stand up on their own then they should pull out US forces completely. But we both know this wont happen.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Commentary: Why Europe became a baby | Reuters

A really interesting idea here, and about more than this situation. A lot of the problem of Europe today could be said to be caused at root by bad American parenting, to include never wanting and then never allowing them to grow up. What if we had dissolved NATO after the fall of the soviets, forced them to do for themselves, to include paying their own way on defense? Would they be better able to navigate life today? Doesn't this also prove that victim culture in general and coddling in particular is not good for the coddled, that it is more an emotional generator for the one doing to coddling? Europe is a mess. America is a mess. Who won in the end and how much if this mess was caused by NATO?

Lots of great angles here, to include thinking about what a disaster helicopter parenting as been. And why we do it.
Click to expand...

It is an interesting mind game to play. What would have happened had Clinton closed NATO?

Hard to say. But cutting them free now would almost certainly increase the dangers we face. A number of Eu members are leaning towards Putin. The politicians fearful of Eu implosion are building a case of American undependability and thus the need for a military independent of NATO as a tool for saving the Eu. And Russia could easily become desirous of territory. It could be a nightmare and accelerate the probabilities of the situation getting out of hand.

If Obama had pushed ahead with a multilateral system of centralized international security, we might have been far enough to rearrange. But to give up the tight knit organization now would be crazy. We should demand the Europeans ramp up the capabilities they put in NATO or pay the shortfall in cash. But losing NATO would not improve our position at all.
 
Higgins86 said:
The problem is America doesn't want to give up it's European bases. If America truly wants countries like Germany to stand up on their own then they should pull out US forces completely. But we both know this wont happen.
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It could happen. It would be a good idea, actually.
 
Higgins86 said:
The problem is America doesn't want to give up it's European bases. If America truly wants countries like Germany to stand up on their own then they should pull out US forces completely. But we both know this wont happen.
Click to expand...

Nobody that doesn't want war in Europe would want the United States out of NATO and Europe. It probably will no longer be possible to prevent a real war anymore, but leaving NATO floundering would bring that date forward considerably.
 
I , personally , would like to see NATO disbanded or at least rehashed into a solely European affair regardless of whether the Europeans are seen as childlike in some quarters. The westward expansion it promised not to undertake after the fall of the Soviet Union has caused growing and understandable concerns in Moscow, leading to a huge rise in tensions between Europe and the Russians. The ringing of Russia with military bases and missile sites ( same with China too ) has created an even graver situation , with regards to Russian/European relations , than was the case during the Cold War.

My real concern is , however , that the horse has already bolted and we are just seeing the unstoppable march , headlong , into another widespread global conflict in the not too distant future that might see a Western coalition pitted against a Russian/Chinese alliance .

If the Americans ever decided that they had had enough of NATO membership and determined to cut themselves off from it , I for one , would welcome the move because I don't think the Russians really have a wish to overrun Europe or engage in military conflict with it.
 
joG said:
Nobody that doesn't want war in Europe would want the United States out of NATO and Europe. It probably will no longer be possible to prevent a real war anymore, but leaving NATO floundering would bring that date forward considerably.
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Oh I agree but the narrative that America is there with the sole purpose to defend central and Eastern Europe is massively flawed.
 
you people just arent getting it. we do not care about europe. we care about defending the US and that is best done on european dirt not our own. geopolitics 101
 
Higgins86 said:
The problem is America doesn't want to give up it's European bases. If America truly wants countries like Germany to stand up on their own then they should pull out US forces completely. But we both know this wont happen.
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If the "NATO is bad for Europe" idea gets traction it might well happen, already a lot of Americans dont want us there, as well as a lot of Europeans. Even if we cant, say because Europe has been ruined by NATO that they could never manage now without US aid we should still look into this idea, an idea that I point out runs very close to the argument that Democrats have ruined the black underclass by "helping" them too much. It is an argument against the effectiveness of liberalism, a serious argument.
 
joG said:
Nobody that doesn't want war in Europe would want the United States out of NATO and Europe. It probably will no longer be possible to prevent a real war anymore, but leaving NATO floundering would bring that date forward considerably.
Click to expand...

Because of how the world is now ya likely, but what if we had killed NATO 20 years ago? We looked at the idea of saying "Mission accomplished" and closing up shop but we went the other way. Sorta looks like a mistake.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
If the "NATO is bad for Europe" idea gets traction it might well happen, already a lot of Americans dont want us there, as well as a lot of Europeans. Even if we cant, say because Europe has been ruined by NATO that they could never manage now without US aid we should still look into this idea, an idea that I point out runs very close to the argument that Democrats have ruined the black underclass by "helping" them too much. It is an argument against the effectiveness of liberalism, a serious argument.
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Problem is the European bases are vital now to the US. They acted as vital FOB in the Afghanistan and Iraq wars and they extend Americas global influence.
 
Higgins86 said:
Problem is the European bases are vital now to the US. They acted as vital FOB in the Afghanistan and Iraq wars and they extend Americas global influence.
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Europe is only vital if we intend to try to maintain the role of global cop till China is ready to take up the job, which is by no means a sure bet. American Nationalism may well be in power for decades, if so America will likely only perform the service if fairly compensated, under the theory that fixing the homeland takes priority.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Europe is only vital if we intend to try to maintain the role of global cop till China is ready to take up the job, which is by no means a sure bet. American Nationalism may well be in power for decades, if so America will likely only perform the service if fairly compensated, under the theory that fixing the homeland takes priority.
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But you're basing that under the assumption that America has no ambition to run global affairs. America is the world's hedgemony and European bases are vital in order to keep that status.
 
Higgins86 said:
But you're basing that under the assumption that America has no ambition to run global affairs. America is the world's hedgemony and European bases are vital in order to keep that status.
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I am making the statement that most Americans have had enough...I am talking about the ones who have been here for awhile, not the last generation of immigrants.

But even they can be convinced that globalism has failed, that we are going to look after ourselves first and always from now on.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
I am making the statement that most Americans have had enough...I am talking about the ones who have been here for awhile, not the last generation of immigrants.

But even they can be convinced that globalism has failed, that we are going to look after ourselves first and always from now on.
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You already did that when America turned its back on the League of Nations.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
What was old is new again.
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And the result was global instability and the greatest war in the history of man. America can't walk away from this and not expect it to hurt them in the long run.
 
Higgins86 said:
And the result was global instability and the greatest war in the history of man. America can't walk away from this and not expect it to hurt them in the long run.
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When one is dying anyways such threats dont get you where you expect to get.

SORRY!
 
Hawkeye10 said:
I am making the statement that most Americans have had enough...I am talking about the ones who have been here for awhile, not the last generation of immigrants.

But even they can be convinced that globalism has failed, that we are going to look after ourselves first and always from now on.
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Gee, because that worked out soo well last time we tried it. :roll:

How many American servicemen ended up dying in the Second World War again?
 
Tigerace117 said:
Gee, because that worked out soo well last time we tried it. :roll:

How many American servicemen ended up dying in the Second World War again?
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America took over the world AFTER WW2.

Clearly your education has problems.

Sucks 2 B you.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
America took over the world AFTER WW2.

Clearly your education has problems.

Sucks 2 B you.
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The irony of somebody whining about my "education" and then using chatspeak is hilarious.

America didn't take over the world until about fifty years after World War Two ended.

So clearly you aren't as smart as you seem to think you are.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Because of how the world is now ya likely, but what if we had killed NATO 20 years ago? We looked at the idea of saying "Mission accomplished" and closing up shop but we went the other way. Sorta looks like a mistake.
Click to expand...

What if, I'm not sure. It probably would not have been as good as putting on more pressure to push Europeans to grow up and do the right things.
 
joG said:
It is an interesting mind game to play. What would have happened had Clinton closed NATO?

Hard to say. But cutting them free now would almost certainly increase the dangers we face. A number of Eu members are leaning towards Putin. The politicians fearful of Eu implosion are building a case of American undependability and thus the need for a military independent of NATO as a tool for saving the Eu. And Russia could easily become desirous of territory. It could be a nightmare and accelerate the probabilities of the situation getting out of hand.

If Obama had pushed ahead with a multilateral system of centralized international security, we might have been far enough to rearrange. But to give up the tight knit organization now would be crazy. We should demand the Europeans ramp up the capabilities they put in NATO or pay the shortfall in cash. But losing NATO would not improve our position at all.
Click to expand...

Clinton would no more close NATO than he would have vetoed the repeal of Glass-Steagall.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
I am making the statement that most Americans have had enough...I am talking about the ones who have been here for awhile, not the last generation of immigrants.

But even they can be convinced that globalism has failed, that we are going to look after ourselves first and always from now on.
Click to expand...

Judging from the anti-NATO and anti-American protests in Bremerhaven last week as US tanks came ashore, a fair portion of the German people have also had enough.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Commentary: Why Europe became a baby | Reuters

A really interesting idea here, and about more than this situation. A lot of the problem of Europe today could be said to be caused at root by bad American parenting, to include never wanting and then never allowing them to grow up. What if we had dissolved NATO after the fall of the soviets, forced them to do for themselves, to include paying their own way on defense? Would they be better able to navigate life today? Doesn't this also prove that victim culture in general and coddling in particular is not good for the coddled, that it is more an emotional generator for the one doing to coddling? Europe is a mess. America is a mess. Who won in the end and how much if this mess was caused by NATO?

Lots of great angles here, to include thinking about what a disaster helicopter parenting as been. And why we do it.
Click to expand...

At the end of WWII, the last thing anyone wanted was to leave Germany alone and unsupervised to build up its military unchecked again.
 
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