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The political realities of "Truthful Hyperbole" and disconnect at play currently

Nilly said:
Fair enough. So you understand our quandry then.
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Oh, absolutely.

So we can criticize him, but if we do, it just means that we're peacocking.
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If you're criticizing him to simply express your displeasure, I can understand that. It's a cathartic type thing. If you're criticizing him in a fashion because it bothers YOU, again, I can understand that. But when you're making criticisms from some strange stand point of laughing at/mocking his supporters or indicating their "Suckers!"; yes, all you're doing is peacocking pointlessly. However, in none of those cases, are your criticisms really being impactful or persuasive by and large. That doesn't mean they're irrelevant or pointless...indeed, even peacocking serves a purpose, specifically to make one feel good...it just means they're irrelevant/pointless if one thinks they're actually persuasive in any worthwhile fashion.

A politician immune from criticism sounds positively North Korean in nature
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Then frankly I think you either grossly misunderstand what is going on in North Korea, have a absolutely warped sense of what's going on here, or are just expressing your point in an extremely poor hyperbolic manner (ironic, given the topic). There's a massive difference between a politician, of whom criticism towards largely is unsuccessful, and a politician whom criticism towards can potentially get you punished via the actual law.

Essentially, Trump isn't appealing to a specific ideal, he's appealing to what you think is ideal, without actually communicating what that ideal is. He may not be giving specifics, but that's our exact issue.
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Possibly true. And yet, a large segment of Trump's supporters seem to be all be interpreting and understanding a similar ideal, even if as you say he's not necessarily actually appealing to that specific ideal. So are all these people just suffering under some strange Mandela-effect type of delusion? Or is it possible that to those of a political mind to be attracted to Trump, the words and implications Trump is saying absolutely IS presenting a variety of ideals that are relatively consistency heard and viewed by those who support him?

Even as an outside observer, it's easily to look at much of what he's saying and understand what that underlying ideal or message that is being driven into his supporters heads. As it relates to the Wall, I already touched on it. We're going to take securing our border seriously, we're going to take significant action to stop the flow of illegal immigrants into the country, and we're going to stop making our illegal immigration problem be beneficial to Mexico.
 
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Critter7r said:
Actually, the TL/DR is more like, Trump speaks in broad terms that are so well-received by his supporters that the specifics of the plan (if there are any) don't really matter - even if they never materialize - because the general message resonates so well with supporters.
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Trump's plans have had far more specifics than "Hope and Change".
 
Nilly said:
EDIT: And I do want to be sincere here. I agree with what you're saying, I just think that if what you're saying is true, then that is a huge problem in and of itself. I'm frustrated, frankly.
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And while I may disagree with you on the extent of the problem, or who needs to be more worried/concerned about the problem, it definitely is problematic in some and varying degrees. The issue however is not whether or not it's a problem, the issue first is actually identifying that it IS a problem. Its incredibly difficult to fix a problem when you're not able to objectively and honestly identify it, because without being able to do that you can't take the first steps at really understanding it. And if you can't understand a problem, then the only way to "fix" it is to basically luck into a solution; which is a poor strategy.
 
Critter7r said:
Actually, the TL/DR is more like, Trump speaks in broad terms ideals that are so well-received by his supporters that the specifics of the plan (if there are any) don't really matter - even if they never materialize - because the general message resonates so well with supporters.
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DING DING DING - We have a TL;DR winner

The only other change to your TL;DR would be

"And as such, attacking the specifics will have zero negative impact on his supporters or their level of enthusiasm".
 
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Zyphlin said:
And while I may disagree with you on the extent of the problem, or who needs to be more worried/concerned about the problem, it definitely is problematic in some and varying degrees. The issue however is not whether or not it's a problem, the issue first is actually identifying that it IS a problem. Its incredibly difficult to fix a problem when you're not able to objectively and honestly identify it, because without being able to do that you can't take the first steps at really understanding it. And if you can't understand a problem, then the only way to "fix" it is to basically luck into a solution; which is a poor strategy.
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It's not a problem at all. A person would have to passionately hate this country to support Obama's demand that we give unlimited access of our resources to illegal immigrants. And to cap it off, he and his supporters accuse anyone who disagreed with his polices as racist.
 
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reinoe said:
It's not a problem at all. A person would have to passionately hate this country to support Obama's demand that we give unlimited access of our resources to illegal immigrants. And to cap it off, he and his supporters accuse anyone who disagreed with his polices as racist.
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It's definitely a problem to Democrats and their supporters, who would like to see their politicians and policies in place. It's definitely a problem to Republicans who would prefer a more fiscally and/or traditionally conservative individual in power as opposed to a more populist and protectionist type as it relates to Donald Trump. "Problem" is relative to who's being discuss, thus why I stated that one of the variables in where I may be disagreeing with Nilly is in terms of WHO needs to be concerned/worried about it as a "problem".
 
"Truthful Hyperbole.

Or, to be a bit more nuanced, truthful hyperbole mixed with such disdain for the typical political norms that they’ve stopped applying them to Donald Trump."

The first time I asked a couple of Trump supporters about one of his more extreme flip-flops /self-contradictions, the response I got was, "We don't care." I subsequently started seeing that "we don't care" meme in various comments by his supporters on the 'net.

To me, what Trump is doing is BS-ing. "truthful hyperbole" is what I call BS. That there are a great number of people that willingly eat it up or simply want to give the finger to the "establishment" so bad that they support Trump despite knowing that they are being fed a grossly exaggerated load of crap says much about our system and what we are as a society.
 
Zyphlin said:
Back during the election cycle I heard a phrase in reference to Trump that caused something in my mind to click and suddenly better understand the situation as it relates to him, his supporters, and his detractors. That phrase was “truthful hyperbole”. A notion from “The Art of the Deal”; something the book describes as “an innocent form of exaggeration – and a very effective form of promotion.”.

Now, there’s a lot been made about the fact the book was ghost written for Trump. His ghost writer has even claimed to have coined that phase himself to describe how Trump functioned. In either case, the origins of it isn’t of any great import; rather, the meaning behind it is. It is this idea of truthful hyperbole that truly confounds Trump’s biggest critics, and why he was able to succeed where so may others would’ve failed.

First, let’s agree on a basic premise to begin this conversation: Donald Trump is incredibly polarizing. Those who truly support him do so with gusto that is perhaps only approached by the gusto in which his detractors loathe him. This is not a man who many people feel milquetoast about.

Much of the attacks on Trump leading up to the election, and even following the election, were regarding his insincerity and his lies.


Perhaps the greatest example of this is with regards to “the Wall”. Part way through the election cycle, Democrats saw what appeared to them to be back peddling, as Trump shifted to discussing a fence or other means to do the border.

They laughed and pointed with haughty derision, declaring “see! We told you he was lying”. Despite this, Trump supporters largely gave it a shrug. Now, we are seeing Trump suggesting that Congress authorize money to begin construction of the wall; and yet again, here are the Democrats with smugness etched across their lips, pointing and going “he lied to your face once again”. Still, his supporters remain undaunted.

Why?

Truthful Hyperbole.

Or, to be a bit more nuanced, truthful hyperbole mixed with such disdain for the typical political norms that they’ve stopped applying them to Donald Trump.

We live in a world where, strangely enough, we actually expect politicians to be truthful. I know, this sounds crazy when I first say it, because the notion that “politicians lie” is far from a foreign one. However, the onetime people tend to not treat a politician lying is when they take a clear, definitive, absolute stance on something. This is because in our evolved, nuanced political world, almost every comment and sound bite is carefully crafted and cached in enough vagueness to allow the politician dozens of “outs”. This kind of wiggle room is so frequent, that people just assume a politician is lying or “playing politics.” But when they give you a “read my lips” type of moment, where they’re saying something that sounds like a definite absolute, the expectation is that they are being honest and serious. More important, it is those instances where politicians most often have their feet held to the fire if they fail to live up to it.

It’s from this prism that Trump’s detractors are trying to come at him; to hold his feet to the fire. The issue is that such a thing works within the traditional game of politics, but Donald Trump isn’t playing that game. Instead, he’s playing his own version of Calvinball, where the rules are fluid and made up by him as they go. It’s from here that his truthful hyperbole provides him an asset.

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I think I am a typical trump supporter and I knew from Day One that a "wall" did not mean what the anti trumpsters assumed it meant

It could be a wall in some places or a fence in other places or no visible barrior at all

Merely electronic or video survielence is fine at many points along the border

So hysterical attacks on trump had no affect as long as he appears go be keeping his promise to seal the border
 
Zyphlin said:
Back during the election cycle I heard a phrase in reference to Trump that caused something in my mind to click and suddenly better understand the situation as it relates to him, his supporters, and his detractors. That phrase was “truthful hyperbole”. A notion from “The Art of the Deal”; something the book describes as “an innocent form of exaggeration – and a very effective form of promotion.”.

<snip>
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Great post Zephlin, thanks for the effort!

Yeah I think you're right-on here, in describing the Trump phenomenon. The problem is: "While it's a great description, it still makes for a ****ty President"!

Now that's my opinion, and I realize 60M Americans disagree with me. So be it. The P.T. Barnum fast talking BS spewing salesman personality may work for some, but not everyone. In fact, some despise it.
 
Zyphlin said:
<snipped for character count. Not sure yet by my post might end up long too, so I might need those characters>
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OK, there is alot going on here, and I want to address some of it anyway. First and foremost, the reason to "attack" Trump and his (sorry, but gotta call it like I see it) disinterest in the truth is not to convince Trump supporters. As we have seen throughout my lifetime, and probably long before, the very partisan will always find ways to justify what they want to believe. Right now, Trump supporters want to believe in Trump, so they are not going to be convinced no matter how many (sorry, but it is what it is) lies he tells. This is not something unique to Trump supporters, it is human nature. So going after Trump based on his words vs his actions to sway his supporters would be a waste of time. However, those are not the people I am looking to sway when talking about Trump. Hardcore Trump supporters are not enough to win him an election in 4 years, and there is another coming up in less than 2 that does not have Trump up for election, but is still important. Pounding the people who lean towards Trump(especially those who where simply anti-Clinton moreso than pro-Trump) with facts, showing what Trump said vs what Trump does, the effects of what Trump does, those sow the seeds of future victories for liberals, progressives and democrats. I cannot effect what will be done by Trump and congress, but by making sure the truth is known(even if only to a few here at DP), maybe I can sway a few people to vote for people other than Trump in the future(yes, my hubris knows no bounds).

Based on that, I simply cannot allow to go unchallenged the notion that what Trump did was something other than lie, less than flip-flopping, less than not taking actual positions. The truth is always important, and supporting those you believe in, and opposing those you do not is not something you should just let slide because you cannot convince every one. I realize that is not exactly what you meant to do, but it read for too much like it, so I want to get it out there. You are right, no one is going to convince a Trump supporter that his claims about what he would do are lies, even as he does otherwise. However, that does not mean we should not call Trump out when he does other than he claims.

I would also argue (to shift to another point in your OP) that Trump really is not that polarizing, at least not in comparison to other politicians of the modern era. Let's look at a list of other polarizing political figures: John McCain, the gentleman in my sig, Lindsay Graham, Reed, Pelosi, Ryan, Paul(both young and old), McConnel, Schumer, Clinton(all three of them), Bush the younger, Reagan, Carter, anyone with the Kennedy surname....seeing a pattern there? I do not like Trump, but to be fair, he is hardly more polarizing than any other national political figure. And the problem there is not so much with Trump, but with us. We have become polarized, to the point where we no longer can agree on not just what is true or not, but even what truth is. When one group gets it's information of events from one source, and another group gets it from completely different sources, then those sources are going to clearly, for the sake of their profits, emphasize what it's readers or viewers want to hear, and we end up with two groups who do not even live in the same reality. There are Reigns fans, and Reigns haters, and people like me who just change the channel when he is on. That is not his fault.

I have more I want to say on this, but I got to get a few things done. Maybe later.
 
reinoe said:
TL/DR...Trump talks like a human being and liberals are used to dealing with pre-programmed poli-bots who regurgitate talking point. It looks like Trump haters have lost all ability to communicate with human beings which is why there's been nothing but protests since Trump won the election in a landslide. They cannot communicate in any fashion so they resort to destroying things and having temper tantrums nationwide.
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And here we have a perfect example of people doing anything they can to justify what they want to believe. It is all the fault of others that what Trump says has little to no bearing on what Trump does.
 
Chomsky said:
Great post Zephlin, thanks for the effort!

Yeah I think you're right-on here, in describing the Trump phenomenon. The problem is: "While it's a great description, it still makes for a ****ty President"!

Now that's my opinion, and I realize 60M Americans disagree with me. So be it. The P.T. Barnum fast talking BS spewing salesman personality may work for some, but not everyone. In fact, some despise it.
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Trump has been given a chance to address the problems that those voters care about.

If he succeeds he's a hero

If he fails he's bum

And trump knows it
 
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