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Sam Harris: Islamic Terrorism and the Election

LowDown

LowDown

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Transcribed from a talk. Any errors are my fault:

"The thing that worried me the whole time was the left’s failure to speak honestly about Islamism, terrorism, and the refugee crisis in Europe. This, I think, was decisive. It’s at least one of the things that, had it gone the other way, would have given us a different result. Polls showed that people who said their primary concerns were terrorism and immigration voted for Trump. It wasn’t just economics and it wasn’t just poor whites who supported Trump. The median income of Trump voters was 72,000. In this election concern about terrorism and immigration boiled down to concern about Islamism and the fear and distrust provoked by liberal lies about it. The fact that we had a president who wouldn’t even use the phrase “Islamic extremism”, and would even say things like “terrorism has less to do with Islam than any other religion” (yea, right) And the fact that Clinton seemed to embrace this delusion? That was a problem. And the fact that she and her husband had accepted millions of dollars from the Saudis and other Islamist regimes didn’t help. Couple this with the unexplained desire to increase Syrian refugees by 530% without ever acknowledging what is going on in Europe. This was a deal breaker for many people. People are right to be worried about Islamism and jihadism, and all the left has offered on this point have been lies and sanctimony and charges of racism and bigotry. Worrying about Islam at this particular moment is not a sign of racism or bigotry. Muslims themselves should be worried about Islamism at this point. It’s basic human sanity, and people know it. But Clinton was the sort of politician who, in the immediate aftermath of the Orlando massacre, talked about gun control and the threat of islamophobia when we had just suffered another tragedy at the hands of Islamic radicals. This was unforgivably stupid. It was the sort of stupidity that paved the way for Trump. It would have been so easy to make sense on this issue and to differentiate a sane understanding of jihadism from bigotry against Muslims in general. But Clinton couldn’t do it. She wouldn’t do it.
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It think that the economy was a bigger factor than Harris apparently thinks. I think that people were feeling like they were not doing as well economically as they should be doing and saw plenty of people in their communities who were not doing well at all. The fact that there were able bodied men sitting at home drinking beer and playing video games would wanted to work but were no longer even being counted as unemployed grated on people tremendously. But I think Harris has a point about the way the Democrats refused to even address the looming issue of Islamic terrorism. If Harris is right this is an issue that snuck up on the Democrats because they refused to even talk about it. Although we got news about the problems in Europe and news about reactions here to refugees there wasn't very much intelligent discussion about how this would affect the election. Most of the time the news media just dismissed criticism of the refugee policy as racism, and the racists, we all knew, were destined for a severe drubbing in the election when Clinton won.

Elsewhere in this same talk Harris discusses just how much people appreciated their concerns being dismissed as racism and being called racists all the time.
 
LowDown said:
Transcribed from a talk. Any errors are my fault:



It think that the economy was a bigger factor than Harris apparently thinks. I think that people were feeling like they were not doing as well economically as they should be doing and saw plenty of people in their communities who were not doing well at all. The fact that there were able bodied men sitting at home drinking beer and playing video games would wanted to work but were no longer even being counted as unemployed grated on people tremendously. But I think Harris has a point about the way the Democrats refused to even address the looming issue of Islamic terrorism. If Harris is right this is an issue that snuck up on the Democrats because they refused to even talk about it. Although we got news about the problems in Europe and news about reactions here to refugees there wasn't very much intelligent discussion about how this would affect the election. Most of the time the news media just dismissed criticism of the refugee policy as racism, and the racists, we all knew, were destined for a severe drubbing in the election when Clinton won.

Elsewhere in this same talk Harris discusses just how much people appreciated their concerns being dismissed as racism and being called racists all the time.
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IMO: Trump told anxious, uneducated people what they wanted to hear. Now he is going to have to deliver. The test starts January 20, 2017. It's him and a GOP Congress. Lets see him go to work on day #1. ;)
 
Bob N said:
IMO: Trump told anxious, uneducated people what they wanted to hear. Now he is going to have to deliver. The test starts January 20, 2017. It's him and a GOP Congress. Lets see him go to work on day #1. ;)
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And the other party failed to mobilize its voter base to the same level as the previous election.
 
Bob N said:
IMO: Trump told anxious, uneducated people what they wanted to hear. Now he is going to have to deliver. The test starts January 20, 2017. It's him and a GOP Congress. Lets see him go to work on day #1. ;)
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Considering most of the people who voted for him are too stupid and oblivious to reality to notice he's already backed out of most of his promises, I doubt there will be any accountability whatsoever.
 
Bob N said:
IMO: Trump told anxious, uneducated people what they wanted to hear. Now he is going to have to deliver. The test starts January 20, 2017. It's him and a GOP Congress. Lets see him go to work on day #1. ;)
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How is that any different than what Obama did in 2008 and 2012 ?

Or in every election since by the Democrat candidate ?? After 8 years of Obama pandering to idiots is all text Democratic party has left

I didn't see one Trump supporterror claim they didn'the have to worry about their mortgage payment because they had Trumps back.
 
Van Basten said:
And the other party failed to mobilize its voter base to the same level as the previous election.
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Said and done. Moving on... :shrug:
 
Fenton said:
How is that any different than what Obama did in 2008 and 2012 ?

Or in every epection since by the Democrat candidate ?? After 8 years of Obama pandering to idiots is all text Democratic party has left

I didn'the see one Trump supporterror claim they didn'the have to worry about their mortgage payment because they had Trumps back.
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In away you're right. 2008, he had a number of DINOS not working with him at all the way he wanted. I suspect Trump is going to see a repeat in 2017. ;)
 
LowDown said:
Transcribed from a talk. Any errors are my fault:



It think that the economy was a bigger factor than Harris apparently thinks. I think that people were feeling like they were not doing as well economically as they should be doing and saw plenty of people in their communities who were not doing well at all. The fact that there were able bodied men sitting at home drinking beer and playing video games would wanted to work but were no longer even being counted as unemployed grated on people tremendously. But I think Harris has a point about the way the Democrats refused to even address the looming issue of Islamic terrorism. If Harris is right this is an issue that snuck up on the Democrats because they refused to even talk about it. Although we got news about the problems in Europe and news about reactions here to refugees there wasn't very much intelligent discussion about how this would affect the election. Most of the time the news media just dismissed criticism of the refugee policy as racism, and the racists, we all knew, were destined for a severe drubbing in the election when Clinton won.

Elsewhere in this same talk Harris discusses just how much people appreciated their concerns being dismissed as racism and being called racists all the time.
Click to expand...


Bernies supporters gave the election to Trump by staying home. Clinton was a lousy candidate. Some whites were pissed because a black is in the WH. A class war has developed between those that had their jobs exported over seas or automated and those that were upstairs doing the exporting. Working class were democrats traditionally and the democrats are complicit is sending their own bases jobs over seas. No one was smart enough to see the connection between blue collar job loss and things like urban blight, crime and drugs and do something about it.
 
Bob N said:
In away you're right. 2008, he had a number of DINOS not working with him at all the way he wanted. I suspect Trump is going to see a repeat in 2017. ;)
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Not working with him ? Pelosi stacked the FY2009 budget with massive new spending in the hopes Obama would win.

He got his stimulus, ObamaCare, his green jobs initiative.
 
Fenton said:
Not working with him ? Pelosi stacked the FY2009 budget with massive new spending in the hopes Obama would win.

He got his stimulus, ObamaCare, his green jobs initiative.
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Sucked when it came to that health plan; that's not the one Obama originally wanted.

The stimulus? Seems like it's doing pretty good to me. Oh, wait. Trump said today that he is taking credit for that until the jobs go down and then we'll hear him sing a different tune. :violin
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Considering most of the people who voted for him are too stupid and oblivious to reality to notice he's already backed out of most of his promises, I doubt there will be any accountability whatsoever.
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I'd say most people who vote for most politicians are stupid. Because politics anymore rewards liars, and because most people are just stupid.

I don't think there is anything especially stupid about Trump supporters, but the attacks on his supporters perfectly echo and mimic the blanket attacks on democrats and democrat politician supporters. Saying Trump supporters are stupid sounds just like when Clinton supporters are called lazy and on the dole, wanting their government handouts and safe spaces.

Lots of people in both camps have lots of reasons.
 
Bob N said:
Sucked when it came to that health plan; that's not the one Obama originally wanted.

The stimulus? Seems like it's doing pretty good to me. Oh, wait. Trump said today that he is taking credit for that until the jobs go down and then we'll hear him sing a different tune. :violin
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ObamaCare allows any State in the union to opt out of the law IF they set up their own single payer plan.

One State tried and in 2011 Vermont passed it's very own single payer plan. Signed into law and everything. What happened to VT's single payer plan ??

Now I think people that think Single payer is a better alternative to what we had before to be uneducated. That MORE Govt intervention is what's needed to repair the ACA.

That just because a state couldn't make it work we as a nation could. That what happened to Vermont single payer initiative is somehow a outlier, a anomaly and all that's needed is all printing press aND a sovereign currency to make it work
 
LowDown said:
Transcribed from a talk. Any errors are my fault:



It think that the economy was a bigger factor than Harris apparently thinks. I think that people were feeling like they were not doing as well economically as they should be doing and saw plenty of people in their communities who were not doing well at all. The fact that there were able bodied men sitting at home drinking beer and playing video games would wanted to work but were no longer even being counted as unemployed grated on people tremendously. But I think Harris has a point about the way the Democrats refused to even address the looming issue of Islamic terrorism. If Harris is right this is an issue that snuck up on the Democrats because they refused to even talk about it. Although we got news about the problems in Europe and news about reactions here to refugees there wasn't very much intelligent discussion about how this would affect the election. Most of the time the news media just dismissed criticism of the refugee policy as racism, and the racists, we all knew, were destined for a severe drubbing in the election when Clinton won.

Elsewhere in this same talk Harris discusses just how much people appreciated their concerns being dismissed as racism and being called racists all the time.
Click to expand...

As usual, Harris makes calm and mostly well-reasoned points. His scathing assessment of the Democrats is probably as accurate as his utterly damning assessment of Trump. (Full 30 minute podcast here, for any who are interested.)

I don't know what his nuanced perspective on mainstream and radical Islam is: I would guess that he is very well aware that there are also radical Christians and Jews who believe that a penultimate global war centered on the Middle East is a precondition for the return of their Messiah, so hopefully he is careful to avoid some of the broad-brushed and aggressive rhetoric we occasionally see. Hopefully he is also well aware that the majority of terrorism worldwide is of a nationalist, rather than religious nature. But it's still certainly true that ignoring an issue doesn't make it go away, and conscientiously avoiding the words "terrorist" and "Islam" in close proximity simply draws attention to the elephant in the room - and the cowards on each side who either ignore its existence, or turn it into a scapegoat, respectively.
 
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Bob N said:
IMO: Trump told anxious, uneducated people what they wanted to hear. Now he is going to have to deliver. The test starts January 20, 2017. It's him and a GOP Congress. Lets see him go to work on day #1. ;)
Click to expand...
I don't think Trump has to fear any accountability from his more rabid supporters..

He's filled their heads with so much bull****, then flipped it around and spun it around sideways, until they're so dizzy they don't know nor care anymore. And they will tell you that! They say it on this board, right here. They're in love with the guy, and it doesn't matter what he says or does. He's the only one that talked to them and embraced them in decades, and for that they're blindly and madly in love.

The good news is there's only a limited number of Trump followers. Trump's danger is not losing his guys, but rather the danger is in the other guys better mobilizing next time.
 
Bob N said:
IMO: Trump told anxious, uneducated people what they wanted to hear. Now he is going to have to deliver. The test starts January 20, 2017. It's him and a GOP Congress. Lets see him go to work on day #1. ;)
Click to expand...

I expect that a lot of left wingers agree with you on that, and that's why we will be having many more Republican victories in the future.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Considering most of the people who voted for him are too stupid and oblivious to reality to notice he's already backed out of most of his promises, I doubt there will be any accountability whatsoever.
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Trump's skill is manipulating the willfully ignorant and he will continue with deflections and tweets and jumping topics and repackaging and promoting himself.
The alt right who was his base will dig in while Trump orchestrates his kingdom.

The oligarchy begins ...
 
LowDown said:
I expect that a lot of left wingers agree with you on that, and that's why we will be having many more Republican victories in the future.
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Good luck with that. For a guy that was fought tooth and nail by his own party before he even won the nomination, I only wonder what's in store for Trump after he's sworn in. :yt
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Considering most of the people who voted for him are too stupid and oblivious to reality to notice he's already backed out of most of his promises, I doubt there will be any accountability whatsoever.
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Trump has already done more than he needs to do for those people to have their everlasting loyalty even before he's taken office. As one fellow put it, Trump is the only politician in his lifetime that has ever even brought up the issues he and his neighbors care about such as trade and offshoring taking jobs away, illegal immigrants getting all the jobs, and so on. That, he said, is more than any Democrat has ever done for them, and this guy lives in Michigan. And on top of that Trump already is getting companies to establish jobs here or move them back from overseas.

I don't usually have much use for Michael Moore, but at least he went out and talked to people in his old stomping grounds around Flint, MI, and found out why they are attracted to Trump, and at least he was able to relate that information accurately. Most of these left wingers don't even seem to regard them as being human, much less talk to them. I was never a Trump supporter, but have absolutely no regard for most of his opponents whatsoever. They are trading in self serving lies and distortions about their fellow Americans. If they were capable of feeling shame at all I'd say they ought to be ashamed of themselves.
 
Chomsky said:
I don't think Trump has to fear any accountability from his more rabid supporters..

He's filled their heads with so much bull****, then flipped it around and spun it around sideways, until they're so dizzy they don't know nor care anymore. And they will tell you that! They say it on this board, right here. They're in love with the guy, and it doesn't matter what he says or does. He's the only one that talked to them and embraced them in decades, and for that they're blindly and madly in love.

The good news is there's only a limited number of Trump followers. Trump's danger is not losing his guys, but rather the danger is in the other guys better mobilizing next time.
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I don't know about that Chomsky. The GOP lawmakers are already disagreeing with Trump about the Russian involvement with our elections and Trump hasn't even been sworn in yet. Those lawmakers--and I don't care which side they're on--have to get reelected, so those folks listen to a different tune than a president is going to hear.
 
LowDown said:
And on top of that Trump already is getting companies to establish jobs here or move them back from overseas.
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Really? Do you have links that can prove beyond the shadow of the doubt that that is what is going to happen substantially? Has contracts been signed? Where's the guarantees?
 
Bob N said:
I don't know about that Chomsky. The GOP lawmakers are already disagreeing with Trump about the Russian involvement with our elections and Trump hasn't even been sworn in yet. Those lawmakers--and I don't care which side they're on--have to get reelected, so those folks listen to a different tune than a president is going to hear.
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I've seen signs of that you describe above, and I agree.

What I was speaking about were the hard-core Trump voters - those best represented by the one's that go to his rallies.
 
The Democrats have simply become a party of group labels rather than standing up the working class and others that are the non elite. When your party is more concerned over safe spaces, twitter outrage, and gender pronouns, a lot of the people that thought you stood for them will go to whoever can make them feel important. Trump did that this time around. Maybe if the democrats can get back to at least pretending that they want to help the average person rather than telling the average person they are racist, homophobic, sexist, or a bigot because they have a different view of the world, they wouldn't have lost to Donald Trump. There are huge issues with Islam right now. The Democrats continue to the deny the issues. They care more about group labels than protecting the safety of our citizens.
 
Bob N said:
Really? Do you have links that can prove beyond the shadow of the doubt that that is what is going to happen substantially? Has contracts been signed? Where's the guarantees?
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Trump supporters aren't nearly as picky as you.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Considering most of the people who voted for him are too stupid and oblivious to reality to notice he's already backed out of most of his promises, I doubt there will be any accountability whatsoever.
Click to expand...

It sounds like the people in Europe that elected generations of social democratic policies and the parties using purely populist arguments and false information. There probably will be no accountability there either. Read my lips.
;)
 
Chomsky said:
I've seen signs of that you describe above, and I agree.

What I was speaking about were the hard-core Trump voters - those best represented by the one's that go to his rallies.
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And there is the fact that, while only about thirty percent voted against Trump only 25 percent actually gave him their vote. His basis of legitimacy is not very strong
 
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