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Easy way to deport illegals, but right wingers won't like it!!!!!!

Fledermaus said:
The problem is 60% or so of migrants coming into California have "documents".

Forged, but they have them.

The employers have to play detective with the documents.
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but a Federal thumb print registry, if i don't want the feds involved in the registry of firearms i certainly dont want them to have a Federal thumb print registry for the population

heavy fines and the lost of a license would be a good place to start, it may not take care all of the problem but it would be a good starting place, and we can go from there
 
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poweRob said:
I'm for that. But the problem is that employers always have the plausible deniability. "They showed me an SS card." I believe it was Arizona that put in place a law for employers enroll in e-verify to check if employees were legal. Almost none did. Right now employers can just play dumb as an out. They don't HAVE to e-verify so they simply say, "they showed me a SS card" then not e-verify it and say they didn't knowingly hire them.
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to solve the problem would might require the implementation of a number of steps, first be being fines and the the lost of a license, once we see how well we have achieved with those steps we can take further ones.
 
Mycroft said:
There is at least one person on the right who seems to support this:
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The Carter Administration seriously tried to enforce the laws prohibiting hiring of illegals. Those of us who were hiring people were required to acquire three forms of identification to confirm legal status--passport or birth certificate, another form of ID such as a driver's license, and a utility bill or something to prove they have a valid local address. It was a real pain, most especially when we needed a life guard or bridge instructor that very day. I'll admit we sometimes hired them, put them to work, and got the credentials later.

But the long range effect was that a cottage industry sprang up almost immediately to forge and provide documents to those who didn't have them. And with very lax enforcement of the laws, pretty soon we didn't much bother with compliance.

The laws should be enforced.

And we need a law specifying that nobody without legal status is entitled to ANY form of government benefit other than immediate emergency medical care and maybe bread and water before they are sent home. We also need a Constitutional amendment that specifies that only people born to at least one citizen of the USA will receive automatic citizenship and you have to have been born here and stayed here or live in the country for a period of five years before you are eligible for any government services or benefits.
 
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AlbqOwl said:
The Carter Administration seriously tried to enforce the laws prohibiting hiring of illegals. Those of us who were hiring people were required to acquire three forms of identification to confirm legal status--passport or birth certificate, another form of ID such as a driver's license, and a utility bill or something to prove they have a valid local address. It was a real pain, most especially when we needed a life guard or bridge instructor that very day. I'll admit we sometimes hired them, put them to work, and got the credentials later.

But the long range effect was that a cottage industry sprang up almost immediately to forge and provide documents to those who didn't have them. And with very lax enforcement of the laws, pretty soon we didn't much bother with compliance.
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Operative phrase: "lax enforcement".

Trump seems to consider enforcement of our laws to be very important.

It would be much easier to pass a law specifying that nobody without legal status was entitled to ANY form of government benefit other than immediate emergency medical care and maybe bread and water before they were sent home. We also need a Constitutional amendment that specifies that only people born to at least one citizen of the USA will receive automatic citizenship.
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I agree this would be a good thing, but we could...and should...do both.
 
Cephus said:
Well, it doesn't stop people who are coming here specifically for criminal activities, but for the rest, yes. Give businesses a three strikes system.
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Wow. Brilliant idea! Which is already in place.

First offenders can be fined $250-$2,000 per illegal employee.
For a second offense, the fine is $2,000-$5,000 per illegal employee.
Three or more offenses can cost an employer $3000-$10,000 per illegal employee. A pattern of knowingly employing illegal immigrants can mean extra fines and up to six months in jail for an employer.

Plus, the employer could face RICO charges.

Penalties for Employers Hiring Illegal Immigrants | LegalMatch Law Library


We need to have INS auditors, just like we have fire departments checking compliance and health inspectors checking compliance.
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The INS no longer exists. It's now ICE. They do have inspectors, and in the Bush 43 years they regularly conducted raids. Can you tell how effective it was, by how many unauthorized immigrants it drove out of the US?

There are somewhere around 18 million businesses in the US. 1800 have more than 10,000 employees. 10 million have 2-10 employees. We'd have to inspect nearly 50,000 businesses per day. We're gonna need lots of inspectors.

How much are you willing to pay to have constant ICE inspections? How does $10 billion per year sound -- not including the costs of detaining and deporting people? Are you OK with people going to jail because the federal government can't find someone's papers?


No business is going to employ illegals if they are facing millions of dollars in potential fines.
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Sure. We just have to set up a police state to make it happen.

Everybody's happy!
 
Visbek said:
Wow. Brilliant idea! Which is already in place.

First offenders can be fined $250-$2,000 per illegal employee.
For a second offense, the fine is $2,000-$5,000 per illegal employee.
Three or more offenses can cost an employer $3000-$10,000 per illegal employee. A pattern of knowingly employing illegal immigrants can mean extra fines and up to six months in jail for an employer.

Plus, the employer could face RICO charges.
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But we have no mechanism in place to actually find those people consistently, which is the point. And $250 is a slap on the wrist, especially to a big company, the fine has to seriously hurt the bottom line, such that even the thought of being caught is a deterrent to taking the chance. That's why we start with $10k per offense and go up from there. I'd be fine doing it as a percentage of the company's value too. It has to be something that hurts the first time and every time.

The INS no longer exists. It's now ICE. They do have inspectors, and in the Bush 43 years they regularly conducted raids. Can you tell how effective it was, by how many unauthorized immigrants it drove out of the US?
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Not regularly, occasionally. There are a lot of companies and every single one has to be hit, more in industries where illegal aliens are more common. And yes, that means we will need a lot of inspectors, but we have a lot of people who aren't exactly working at the moment and it can be funded solely out of the fines collected. A single inspector only has to find 4-5 illegals a year to pay their own salary. We already do this with other inspections, it isn't hard to do it again.

Sure. We just have to set up a police state to make it happen.

Everybody's happy!
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Well hell, let's just let people murder and rape at will! Better than having anyone enforce the law! :roll:
 
Master PO said:
why dont you just pass laws which prohibit the hiring of illegals, by placing very heavy fines first on business and if they repeat the offense take away their business license.

illegals will leave if they cannot get a job and support themselves, ....self deportation
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I'm pretty sure all they have to do is enforce EXISTING law...no new law needs to be passed.
 
Visbek said:
Wow. Brilliant idea! Which is already in place.

First offenders can be fined $250-$2,000 per illegal employee.
For a second offense, the fine is $2,000-$5,000 per illegal employee.
Three or more offenses can cost an employer $3000-$10,000 per illegal employee. A pattern of knowingly employing illegal immigrants can mean extra fines and up to six months in jail for an employer.

Plus, the employer could face RICO charges.

Penalties for Employers Hiring Illegal Immigrants | LegalMatch Law Library



The INS no longer exists. It's now ICE. They do have inspectors, and in the Bush 43 years they regularly conducted raids. Can you tell how effective it was, by how many unauthorized immigrants it drove out of the US?

There are somewhere around 18 million businesses in the US. 1800 have more than 10,000 employees. 10 million have 2-10 employees. We'd have to inspect nearly 50,000 businesses per day. We're gonna need lots of inspectors.

How much are you willing to pay to have constant ICE inspections? How does $10 billion per year sound -- not including the costs of detaining and deporting people? Are you OK with people going to jail because the federal government can't find someone's papers?



Sure. We just have to set up a police state to make it happen.

Everybody's happy!
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It is folly to think there would be an illegal immigrant round-up. As you said...all that needs to happen is the existing law needs to be enforced.
 
Master PO said:
to solve the problem would might require the implementation of a number of steps, first be being fines and the the lost of a license, once we see how well we have achieved with those steps we can take further ones.
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So, fining an entity that has no forensic staff to ascertain whether or not documents are legit.
 
Cephus said:
But we have no mechanism in place to actually find those people consistently, which is the point. And $250 is a slap on the wrist
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$250 per employee. With escalations, possible jail time, and RICO charges.


Not regularly, occasionally. There are a lot of companies and every single one has to be hit, more in industries where illegal aliens are more common. And yes, that means we will need a lot of inspectors, but we have a lot of people who aren't exactly working at the moment and it can be funded solely out of the fines collected. A single inspector only has to find 4-5 illegals a year to pay their own salary. We already do this with other inspections, it isn't hard to do it again.
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Or, you're living in a fantasy world.

Does the SEC pay its bills in fines? Or the IRS? Should we have the IRS audit every adult, and pay for the increased agents with tax penalties? The idea that we will raise $10 billion in fees from this scheme is ludicrous.

You think no one will pay under the table? Figure out how to bribe an inspector? Hack the database? Game the system? It'll be harder, but the idea that you can chase out 11 million people that way is ridiculous.

We currently spend $3 billion on immigration enforcement. You want to quadruple this, and command government agents to walk into every single business in the US, and do what? Fingerprint every employee? Demand to see your papers? Did I mention that this would require turning the US into a police state?


Well hell, let's just let people murder and rape at will! Better than having anyone enforce the law! :roll:
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I've got a better idea. Let's cover every single inch of the United States with cameras and tracking devices, and implant a GPS tracker in every arm. We can then use the data to completely eliminate all crime, because we will know exactly where every person is at every time.

bigbrotheriswatchingyou.jpg
 
Visbek said:
$250 per employee. With escalations, possible jail time, and RICO charges.
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Which isn't as much as $10k plus all of that.

Or, you're living in a fantasy world.
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You're just looking in a mirror.
 
independentusa said:
I have said this before, but will say it again, there is an easy way to deport illegals. It takes only two things, a national or state Id card and a Federal thumb print registry. To get a job, rent or buy a place to live, to bank, to get a credit card or a loan, to buy a vehicle, anything to be able to live in this country you would have to show your ID card and them place your thumb on a finger print reader. The readers are relatively cheap and if the registry knows which print it is looking for, it can identify the person in question. Without the ability to get a job or find a place to live, the 11 million illegals in this country would just have to go to their original home. We could insure by law that the thumb print registry could only be used for limited indentification purposes and be off limits to law inforement or any other goverment agency. This would be a cheap way of deporting illegals, but it will never happen. that is because neither party actually wants to deport the illegals. It is a great issue for both parties, kind of like abortion.
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That goes way too far though, heck people whine about voter id in places like texas, but they accept many alternate forms of id. Now if everything was off a single id and you lose it, it is like being in europe and losing your passport, sure you will probably not end up in jail, but you will be stuck at your countries embassy waiting a long time for them to confirm you are who you are to send you a passport to go home.

Simply put using a single id card is a bad idea, our system works off multiple forms of id, and fingerprints can easily change over time, making that unreliable as well. Why not simply punish those who hire illegals, or even better why not enforce the existing laws against illegals, we make such a fuss about new ways of making a law, when we barely enforce the old ones.
 
ocean515 said:
I completely agree Captain. However, as an employer burdened with the task of playing ICE enforcer, a simple, robust system to check legal to work status is critical. In order to protect employers like myself from the fraud illegals commit on a regular basis via stolen identities, etc., an E-Verify system must be part of this effort.

If E-Verify signals no issue, at least a legitimate employer can demonstrate they did everything they could to hire legal workers.

After that, I would like to see draconian penalties levied against employers who knowingly hire illegal workers. The fines should be dramatic, and cumulative. They should not be dischargeable via bankruptcy, etc.. They should include asset forfeiture of personal property regardless of business structure, meaning they should be able to pierce the Corporate Shield. Mandatory jail time should also be part of the penalty, and should be cumulative based on each case where conviction resulted from the actions.
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Mason66 said:
I would change that to "knowingly" hires an illegal.

The employer does not have at his disposal the manner in which to verify if the documents he was given are authentic.

If the IRS was concerned about this they would red flag very quickly any number that has multiple payment being made to it and send out a team to investigate, but they don't.
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poweRob said:
I'm for that. But the problem is that employers always have the plausible deniability. "They showed me an SS card." I believe it was Arizona that put in place a law for employers enroll in e-verify to check if employees were legal. Almost none did. Right now employers can just play dumb as an out. They don't HAVE to e-verify so they simply say, "they showed me a SS card" then not e-verify it and say they didn't knowingly hire them.
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And any employer who tries to use the loophole of not enrolling in E-Verify, gets fined, a certain amount of money, per day.
 
woodsman said:
Some of the current fines are pretty hefty, that said, If the enforcement branch has It’s hands tied by an administration that doesn’t wish to enforce current laws what is the point? Directives and pressure has been brought against Boarder control agencies to “look the other way”. There is also the false identity market, for less than a hundred dollars you can get basic ID’s that meet the stipulations for employment.

I personally loath the idea of a big brother type ID but aren’t we being pushed into this direction? The mismanagement of our immigration policies have been going on for decades and no one political party has clean hands with this.

Having punitive fines is great, I agree, but if you don’t have the staff/agencies to enforce it what is the point. If you have the staff but have directives not to cross certain lines with enforcement, again, what is the point.
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See, I have no issue with some sort of National ID card. If done right, it could create a bit of simplicity in this scenario.
 
Fledermaus said:
So, fining an entity that has no forensic staff to ascertain whether or not documents are legit.
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do you want a Federal thumb print registry?

my idea dealt with results of willfully hiring illegals, those businesses who break the law.

when someone is hired a company does ask for documents of proof being able to working America

that company can make a file of any documents, whether or not they are real or fake the company when would have something to backup its argument of not facing a fine, or losing a license.

the only way illegals are going to leave America is to deny them work, walls will not do it and rounding people up is not going to happen and nor should it.

but i don't want the government infringing on my rights via the process of making it harder for illegal to get jobs, in other words i don't want to trade my liberty for the government promising security.

solving the problems of illegals working in American is not going to be an overnight process, it going to have to be a series of steps

dealing with companies who hire people without any documentation all can be that first step.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
And any employer who tries to use the loophole of not enrolling in E-Verify, gets fined, a certain amount of money, per day.
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Not using E-Verify ought to be like refusing to follow OSHA laws. Your business gets shut down, you lose your business license until you comply.
 
Master PO said:
do you want a Federal thumb print registry?

my idea dealt with results of willfully hiring illegals, those businesses who break the law.

when someone is hired a company does ask for documents of proof being able to working America

that company can make a file of any documents, whether or not they are real or fake the company when would have something to backup its argument of not facing a fine, or losing a license.

the only way illegals are going to leave America is to deny them work, walls will not do it and rounding people up is not going to happen and nor should it.

but i don't want the government infringing on my rights via the process of making it harder for illegal to get jobs, in other words i don't want to trade my liberty for the government promising security.

solving the problems of illegals working in American is not going to be an overnight process, it going to have to be a series of steps

dealing with companies who hire people without any documentation all can be that first step.
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Apologies.

Mea culpa.

Knowingly hiring is what I mised.

Yes, hammering businesses will impact illgal workers in a business environment.
 
Master PO said:
why dont you just pass laws which prohibit the hiring of illegals, by placing very heavy fines first on business and if they repeat the offense take away their business license.

illegals will leave if they cannot get a job and support themselves, ....self deportation
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We already have those.
 
Cephus said:
Not using E-Verify ought to be like refusing to follow OSHA laws. Your business gets shut down, you lose your business license until you comply.
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So what happens if you sign up for e-verify, and pay a bunch of your employees under the table?
 
Visbek said:
So what happens if you sign up for e-verify, and pay a bunch of your employees under the table?
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Then when they come to check your business, you're going to jail.
 
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