• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Approx. 3.09 Million Non-Citizens Are Registered To Vote! How Many Voted?!

Non-citizens voted in the 2016 U.S. general election to the degree that:

  • Donald Trump will actually end up winning the popular vote.

    Votes: 7 36.8%

  • Hillary Clinton will still end up winning the popular vote.

    Votes: 1 5.3%

  • Who cares -- the EC won't change .. it's just really bad that non-citizens voted.

    Votes: 7 36.8%

  • No, actually Trump might have won more states if non-citizens hadn't voted!

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Conspiracy theory, conspiracy theory!!!

    Votes: 4 21.1%

  • I'm sorry, our country is too great -- there's no way non-citizens could ever vote.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    19
Orly? said:
Not just a recount, oh no..

Nationwide investigation into the legality of all the votes cast..

So we can fix it for future elections..
Click to expand...

Works for me.
 
Orly? said:
Is very similar to this one with the registering process..

Judge Andrew Napolitano says that “if you are an illegal alien in California, get a driver’s license, register to vote, you can vote in local, state, and federal elections in California and those votes count.”

On “Fox & Friends” Tuesday, host Steve Doocy explained, “The state of California has passed legislation that will automatically register eligible voters when they obtain or renew a driver’s license. Governor Jerry Brown says it’s a way to increase voter turnout, but critics warn the measure could add millions of illegal people to the rolls because the state allows undocumented aliens to get driver’s licenses.”

FALSE: California Passed a Law Allowing Undocumented Immigrants to Vote in Federal Elections : snopes.com

Increase turnout alright..



Is that not enough evidence?
Click to expand...
Are you debunking your own posts here?
 
Paperview said:
Are you debunking your own posts here?
Click to expand...

It contains relevant information alongside the official subject of the article..

Did they pass a law to make it legal for illegals to vote? No, false..

They just made it extremely easy and safe to do.. Not technically legal but the same deal with immigration, they don't enforce federal law..
 
Orly? said:
It contains relevant information alongside the official subject of the article..
Click to expand...

It shows undocumented immigrants aren't allowed to vote under the MVA in Cali, and calls hogwash on the Fox propagandee.

"While critics of the New Motor Voter Act fear that undocumented people may slip through the loopholes and get registered to vote, it's false to say that California has made it legal for undocumented people to vote. In fact, California Secretary of State Alex Padilla said that the new law is actually more secure:

The way automatic registration works is relatively simple: Eligible citizens are registered to vote when they show up at a Department of Motor Vehicles office to obtain a driver's license or state ID. The DMV gives the eligible voter a chance to opt out if they prefer not to register. If the person does not opt out, the DMV electronically transfers their voter registration information to the Secretary of State's office, rather than making election officials enter data by hand from paper registration forms...

"... Automated voter registration is actually a more secure way of doing things," California Secretary of State Alex Padilla told HuffPost in September. Potential voters "have to demonstrate proof of age, the vast majority of time people are showing a birth certificate or a passport, which also reflects citizenship. That's arguably more secure than someone checking a box under penalty of perjury," Padilla said.

While it's true that undocumented people in California can obtain a driver's license, the state has not passed any laws which also gives them the right to vote. The New Motor Voter Act was passed in an effort to improve voter turnout, and while this law does automatically register citizens to vote when obtaining or renewing a driver's license, this only applies to citizens who are already eligible to vote."

FALSE: California Passed a Law Allowing Undocumented Immigrants to Vote in Federal Elections : snopes.com

[h=2]What is California AB-60?[/h] California Assembly Bill 60 ( AB-60) is a bill passed into law that, in effect, allows illegal immigrants to the United States to apply for a California driver's license with the CA Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV).
Previous to this bill, driver's licenses were only issued to California residents who could prove their legal presence in the United States, usually by providing a Social Security number. Per AB-60, a California resident who cannot prove their legal presence in the U.S. can still apply for a driver's license as long as they can prove their identity AND California residency, as well as pass all required tests for an original driver's license.
This is a special driver's license that:



  • May NOT be used for identification purposes.
  • MAY be used to drive anywhere throughout the state of California.
  • Has a distinguishing feature and notice on the front of the license indicating that it is for driving purposes only, per the AB-60 law (i.e. “DP" instead of “DL").

California AB-60 Driver's License | DMV.org
 
Casper said:
One second Polls are BS and now they are fact. The nonsense just keeps coming.
Click to expand...
Your statement here is idiosyncratically nondescript .. and thus meaningless.
 
Paperview said:
It shows undocumented immigrants aren't allowed to vote under the MVA in Cali, and calls hogwash on the Fox propagandee ...
Click to expand...
Regarding the OP-presented topic ..

.. Did you answer the poll?

Also, how many non-citizens do you think voted in the election?
 
Ontologuy said:
Your statement here is idiosyncratically nondescript .. and thus meaningless.
Click to expand...

Translation: I pick and chose what polls are worthy of belief, those that support my POV.
 
Orly? said:
Is very similar to this one with the registering process..

Judge Andrew Napolitano says that “if you are an illegal alien in California, get a driver’s license, register to vote, you can vote in local, state, and federal elections in California and those votes count.”

On “Fox & Friends” Tuesday, host Steve Doocy explained, “The state of California has passed legislation that will automatically register eligible voters when they obtain or renew a driver’s license. Governor Jerry Brown says it’s a way to increase voter turnout, but critics warn the measure could add millions of illegal people to the rolls because the state allows undocumented aliens to get driver’s licenses.”

FALSE: California Passed a Law Allowing Undocumented Immigrants to Vote in Federal Elections : snopes.com

Increase turnout alright..



Is that not enough evidence?
Click to expand...

That is absolutely not enough evidence. Those illegally here are allowed to get different licenses in California than those here legally. People getting those licenses are not affected by that voter registration act at all.

It also doesn't allow legal non-citizens to vote. To be eligible to be automatically registered they have to provide documentation proving they are an eligible voter such as a birth certificate. Those who only provide documentation that also allows for a drivers license like a green card or consular IDs but does not prove citizenship will not be allowed to register to vote.
 
Casper said:
Translation: I pick and chose what polls are worthy of belief, those that support my POV.
Click to expand...
Yes, by virtue of obvious projection, you certainly do!
 
Ontologuy said:
Yes, by virtue of obvious projection, you certainly do!
Click to expand...

Obviously you have no clue what you are talking about, oh by the way your poll is four years old and in California which was going Blue no matter who voted. Sorry until you can show who voted legally and who did so illegally your point is nothing more than Speculation based ob what you want to believe, that is not how the world turns.
 
Orly? said:
It contains relevant information alongside the official subject of the article..

Did they pass a law to make it legal for illegals to vote? No, false..

They just made it extremely easy and safe to do.. Not technically legal but the same deal with immigration, they don't enforce federal law..
Click to expand...

Illegals still can't vote in Ca as your link points out. When someone in Ca goes to the DMV and agrees to be registered their name is electronically sent to the Ca Secretary of State to verify that they are a citizen. Only if they're citizens will they be registered.
 
Casper said:
Obviously you have no clue what you are talking about,
Click to expand...
Your projection here is irrelevant.

If you have a poll that contradicts the multiple surveys results presented in the OP, then, by all means, post such substantive relevance.

Otherwise all you're saying is sour grapes.


Casper said:
oh by the way your poll is four years old and in California which was going Blue no matter who voted.
Click to expand...
No, the McLaughlin poll is not even 3.5 years old. Regardless, that makes it quite current .. though the numbers should now be higher, and likely the percentages too.

The other surveys referenced in the OP, the Old Dominion and George Mason survey, plus the analysis done on it that concluded the current likely percentage of non-citizens voting is closer to 25 percent, they're also quite accurate validators.

"California was going blue no matter who voted" is an illogical statement. "California went blue because of who voted and how they voted" is logically correct.

It doesn't matter where the non-citizens resided. If they were registered and they voted, they voted illegally and their votes should not rightly count no matter in what state of the union their vote was cast.

What we intelligently know is that illegal aliens in the non-citizens group would most certainly nearly all vote for Hillary and the rest of the non-citizens would greatly vote for Hillary.

This is intelligent analysis.


Casper said:
Sorry until you can show who voted legally and who did so illegally your point is nothing more than Speculation based ob what you want to believe,
Click to expand...
Absolutely and obviously false.

One does not have to know precisely which votes were actually made by citizens and which votes were actually made by non-citizens to accurately estimate the number of each. Your statement here is a request that everybody play dumb. Sorry, intelligent people don't play that game.

In addition, the valid surveys, intelligent analysis, and accurate mathematics used to determine that approximately 3.09 million non-citizens are registered to vote is not based on "what you want to believe". It's fact-based, obviously.

Since we all know that Trump wanted to imprison and deport law-breaking non-citizens (which includes legal non-citizens who commit an illegal act of registering to vote (as well as actually voting!)), and that Hillary wanted to make them all citizens, it is crystal intelligently clear that registered non-citizens would really be compelled to vote this time .. and that the overwhelming majority of them would vote for Hillary.


Casper said:
that is not how the world turns.
Click to expand...
Your statement here thus doesn't apply to me ..

.. And clearly it does apply to you.

So .. if you can't pony up an accurate, valid and conflicting survey, analysis and mathematics, you have nothing but sour grapes.

It's clear you'd rather have everyone play dumb on this one.

But we intelligent people refuse to play your ideologically based game.
 
Ontologuy said:
Please read the OP .. then vote in the poll.

From this link: Poll: 13% of Illegal Aliens ADMIT They Vote - California Political Review

Polls, surveys, and sharp analysis say that there are between 13-25 % of people who are non-U.S. citizens living in the U.S. are registered to vote in the U.S. .. leaning closer to the higher end.

This isn't some "conspiracy theory" -- these are actual polled surveys and university studies.

Yes, that's illegal registration .. and thus if they vote, their vote should not legally count.

Let's llook at the article.



By the way, here's the McLaughlin study itself: http://www.mclaughlinonline.com/lib/sitefiles/National_Hispanic_Presentation_06-21-13_-_FOR_RELEASE.pdf. If you scroll down all the way to page 68 and look on the far right column, you'll see that 13 % of non-citizens are registered to vote (strange .. the total adds up to 103%!). Regardless, this is just Hispanics, and non-citizens does not mean they're all illegal aliens -- many are here legally.


So McLaughlin isn't the only poll. This quote from the article shows that non-citizens in general, regardless of race, are registered at a higher percentage than just Hispanics .. and, the percent increased from 2008 to 2010.

Wow -- 25 percent of non-citizens are registered to vote according to current intelligent analysis.

So .. how many non-citizens are there presently in the U.S.? This population link states that approx. 7% of the people in the U.S. are non-citizens: Population Distribution by Citizenship Status | The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation

And .. how many people are in the U.S.? This current population counter says there are about 325 million people in the U.S.: World Population Clock: 7.5 Billion People (2016) - Worldometers

Thus 7% of 325 million is: 22.75 million. So we'll go with that.

Yes, some say that the 7% is a bit low .. but let's just go with that for now.

Now, how many voting age people are there in the U.S.? Roughly 232 million, as presented in a number of threads here. That's 71.38%. Taking that percent of the 22.75 million non-citizens gives 16.24 million non-citizens of voting age.

So now let's pick a figure from the 13-25 % range of non-citizens registered to vote previously presented. For the sake of argument, let's average it: 19%, ..

.. Or roughly 3.09 million non-citizens are registered to vote in the U.S.!

This is not just a wild-ass "conspiracy theory" guess -- these are valid surveys intelligently analyzed and processed with accurate math on median numbers.

If you're inclined to think some of the population numbers are old and too small .. and should be larger ...

So, how many non-citizens actually voted? After all, if any election would draw people to risk it, this would be it.

And, how do non-citizens vote? Well, the portion that's illegal, they'd nearly all vote for Hillary, even if the legal non-citizens might only greatly vote for her.

Make your percentage guess of the 3.09 million registered non-citizens and then intelligently extrapolate how many voted for Hillary.

My est. is in for a penny, in for a pound -- nearly 3 million voted for Hillary.

But make your own guess .. and vote in the poll.
Click to expand...


The Old Dominion Study that your article is based on was based on a sampling of 750 or so people. Extrapolating a sample that small, especially a self reported one, to the country at large is problematic to say the least.


And in any event popular vote is irrelevant.
 
Gaius46 said:
Illegals still can't vote in Ca as your link points out. When someone in Ca goes to the DMV and agrees to be registered their name is electronically sent to the Ca Secretary of State to verify that they are a citizen. Only if they're citizens will they be registered.
Click to expand...
Your statements are true .. until the last sentence.

Many non-citizens used forged ids to get jobs, and they used those forged ids to pay taxes, which gets them in "the system" .. the same forged ids they used to register to vote.

The vast majority of those forged ids declare that they're citizens. Many of these forged ids are actual identity theft.

So when the CA SoS attempts to verify citizenship, the CA Sos is at the mercy of what's ever recorded, even if what's recorded is false.

Thus not all registered to vote in CA are citizens .. especially in CA.
 
Gaius46 said:
Illegals still can't vote in Ca as your link points out. When someone in Ca goes to the DMV and agrees to be registered their name is electronically sent to the Ca Secretary of State to verify that they are a citizen. Only if they're citizens will they be registered.
Click to expand...

So they did not vote, see how easy that was.
 
Gaius46 said:
The Old Dominion Study that your article is based on was based on a sampling of 750 or so people. Extrapolating a sample that small, especially a self reported one, to the country at large is problematic to say the least. And in any event popular vote is irrelevant.
Click to expand...
Actually, many of Gallup's polls are with 500 people. Some polls 1,000 -- 1200 people.

The 800 people used in the McLaughlin poll and the 750 used in the Old Dominion Study are consistent enough, professionally.

And, their accuracy is likely to be, as the McLaughlin study stated, 3.4 - 4.5 % +-, which is quite good .. and sufficient here to derive numbers that have a likely high degree of accuracy.

As to the popular vote being irrelevant, yes, absolutely, EC-wise, it's rightly irrelevant. It is possible, however, that if all of the illegal votes were discarded, Trump might have won a close Hillary state .. though I'm not so sure that occurred here this time.

But with all the identity politics sufferers screaming that there's something wrong with the U.S. system that uses an EC when the losing candidate won the popular vote, I'm just presenting how their premise for all their demonstrating and rioting and looting .. is likely simply false.
 
Ontologuy said:
Your statements are true .. until the last sentence.

Many non-citizens used forged ids to get jobs, and they used those forged ids to pay taxes, which gets them in "the system" .. the same forged ids they used to register to vote.

The vast majority of those forged ids declare that they're citizens. Many of these forged ids are actual identity theft.

So when the CA SoS attempts to verify citizenship, the CA Sos is at the mercy of what's ever recorded, even if what's recorded is false.

Thus not all registered to vote in CA are citizens .. especially in CA.
Click to expand...

So people are forging US Passports or raised seal birth certificates to falsely prove US citizenship? I don't find that likely at least not in the numbers that would be needed for illegals' voting to actually make a difference.
 
Ontologuy said:
Actually, many of Gallup's polls are with 500 people. Some polls 1,000 -- 1200 people.

The 800 people used in the McLaughlin poll and the 750 used in the Old Dominion Study are consistent enough, professionally.

And, their accuracy is likely to be, as the McLaughlin study stated, 3.4 - 4.5 % +-, which is quite good .. and sufficient here to derive numbers that have a likely high degree of accuracy.

As to the popular vote being irrelevant, yes, absolutely, EC-wise, it's rightly irrelevant. It is possible, however, that if all of the illegal votes were discarded, Trump might have won a close Hillary state .. though I'm not so sure that occurred here this time.

But with all the identity politics sufferers screaming that there's something wrong with the U.S. system that uses an EC when the losing candidate won the popular vote, I'm just presenting how their premise for all their demonstrating and rioting and looting .. is likely simply false.
Click to expand...

At least one peer-reviewed article whose extract I read - don't want to spend the $20 for the full article - argues that the authors of the Old Dominion study used a methodology that is "almost certainly flawed." So I'm going to remain skeptical.
 
Gaius46 said:
So people are forging US Passports or raised seal birth certificates to falsely prove US citizenship? I don't find that likely at least not in the numbers that would be needed for illegals' voting to actually make a difference.
Click to expand...
I'm afraid they're doing whatever they need to do: Illegal, but Not Undocumented | Center for Immigration Studies.

One does not need a birth certificate to forge a false id. Once they have that id, they simply use it to illegally obtain whatever documents they need, also, of course, illegally.

Registration to vote is simply one of those subsequently illegally obtained documents.

To Register to vote, you don't have to present a birth certificate -- you simply present your (false, in this case) information that's already been documented for tax purposes etc.

It's that illegally simple.

Many false ids are stolen from children, U.S. citizens. Other ids are stolen from adult U.S. citizens, living and dead.

Though e-verify can detect some of this, as the link says, it's only mandated in 14 states. In addition, we don't have the personnel to check even a small fraction of the businesses who hire.

It's really sad.
 
Gaius46 said:
At least one peer-reviewed article whose extract I read - don't want to spend the $20 for the full article - argues that the authors of the Old Dominion study used a methodology that is "almost certainly flawed." So I'm going to remain skeptical.
Click to expand...
I presented two other studies and additional third-party analysis in the OP.

They're all saying close to the same thing.

However, it's quite possible now that the percentage of non-citizens in America is greater than 7% (23 million, 2010 Census based) and that the number now is closer to 45 million I've read!

So no, I'm not skeptical at all. Stunned a bit by the size of the numbers, true .. but not skeptical.

Millions of just illegal aliens alone have forged ids which they've used to get jobs and thereby pay taxes. They've gotten away with it, for years.

Once they're "safely" in the database, adding voter registration is all too simple, and actually voting ends up safe, especially by mail.

Indeed, in California they had a ton of mail-in votes (surprise, surprise) which is why the CA count isn't done yet. In the June primary, 58% of Californians voted by mail Historical Vote-By-Mail (Absentee) Ballot Use in California | California Secretary of State. California is a known haven for illegal aliens.

It's quite obvious what's going on, and the surveys, analysis, and accurately applied mathematics support the obvious.
 
Ontologuy said:
I'm afraid they're doing whatever they need to do: Illegal, but Not Undocumented | Center for Immigration Studies.

One does not need a birth certificate to forge a false id. Once they have that id, they simply use it to illegally obtain whatever documents they need, also, of course, illegally.

Registration to vote is simply one of those subsequently illegally obtained documents.

To Register to vote, you don't have to present a birth certificate -- you simply present your (false, in this case) information that's already been documented for tax purposes etc.

It's that illegally simple.

Many false ids are stolen from children, U.S. citizens. Other ids are stolen from adult U.S. citizens, living and dead.

Though e-verify can detect some of this, as the link says, it's only mandated in 14 states. In addition, we don't have the personnel to check even a small fraction of the businesses who hire.

It's really sad.
Click to expand...

Okay so maybe I'm getting it wrong as far as citizenship verification for voting goes.

I know that the only really acceptable proof of citizenship is a passport, raised seal birth certificate or naturalization paperwork. But thinking about when I registered to vote in NY no one asked for proof that I was a citizen that I can recall (it was 35 years ago). In NY you have to show photo ID to vote but afaik NY driver licenses - the most common form of photo ID - don't distinguish between citizens and non-citizen residents.

Hunting around a little I can't really find any reference to how, or even if, the NY Board of Elections actually verifies citizenship so it may, as you say, be pretty easy for a non-citizen to register to vote. Whether lots do and whether those actually affect the outcome of federal elections is still very much an open question.

Thanks for the info.
 
Ontologuy said:
I presented two other studies and additional third-party analysis in the OP.

They're all saying close to the same thing.

However, it's quite possible now that the percentage of non-citizens in America is greater than 7% (23 million, 2010 Census based) and that the number now is closer to 45 million I've read!

So no, I'm not skeptical at all. Stunned a bit by the size of the numbers, true .. but not skeptical.

Millions of just illegal aliens alone have forged ids which they've used to get jobs and thereby pay taxes. They've gotten away with it, for years.

Once they're "safely" in the database, adding voter registration is all too simple, and actually voting ends up safe, especially by mail.

Indeed, in California they had a ton of mail-in votes (surprise, surprise) which is why the CA count isn't done yet. In the June primary, 58% of Californians voted by mail Historical Vote-By-Mail (Absentee) Ballot Use in California | California Secretary of State. California is a known haven for illegal aliens.

It's quite obvious what's going on, and the surveys, analysis, and accurately applied mathematics support the obvious.
Click to expand...

Here's a link to the full paper I referenced that challenges the Old Dominion study:

The Perils of Cherry Picking Low Frequency Events in Large Sample Surveys | CCES


In a nutshell the authors point out that when looking at a small subset of a larger population what are normally acceptably small measurement errors (i.e. people checking the wrong checkbox on a survey) will completely distort the results.

They show convincingly that if even if 0.1% of the responses were inaccurate - a rate better than most surveys actually get - enough citizens are likely to accidentally be recorded as non-citizens to completely account for all the apparently non-citizens who vote.

As well this particular survey is one that is taken periodically by the same pool of people. You might expect that the number of citizens increases a little over time but you wouldn't expect the number of non-citizens to increase - people simply don't lose citizenship that often and when they do they usually leave the country. The number of reported non citizens in the latest survey is higher than the number of non-citizens in previous surveys. That should not be.

As for the McLaughlin numbers I'd only say that that 3 numbers in a 69 slide powerpoint don't really make any kind of a convincing argument. As far as I can tell the author doesn't even point it out as a finding.
 
Well, the electors voted today, so the current popular vote count can essentially be considered final enough for this analysis.

So .. Clinton won the popular vote by 2.865 million votes. In California she won by 4.270 million votes. So, without California, Trump won the rest of the nation by 1.405 million votes.

What's so relevantly special about California? The largest non-citizen population in the country lives in California .. and by far.

Likely close to 3 million non-citizens voted in November.

It's thus really close as to whether after subtracting their votes Trump won the popular vote (not that it matters, as the EC is what really counts and that's not going to change).

But, on a hunch, I am choosing number one in the poll. And I'm basing my hunch on the fact that the numbers I presented in the OP were considered conservative, that a more accurate estimate may be around twice that number!

Non-citizens (especially illegal aliens) have been flocking to California, especially considering that California's secession movement is championing a safe "citizen" home for all illegals when they become a country of their own. And, California's lax voter scrutiny makes it really easy for non-citizens to secure a ballot.

It's bad enough non-citizens (especially illegal aliens) take our jobs, living space, road space, classrooms, etc.

But to take our voting rights too?!

That's just wrong!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom