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Obama, Cuba, and Us

Thrilla said:
there are only a couple of Cuban cigars worth a damn.... Nicaraguans and Dominicans are better, nearly across the board. (Nicaraguans dominated the field the last few years )

what was the intended effect of the embargo?
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And don't forget Honduras.

It was a tongue-in-cheek remark, since I generally agree that cuban cigars aren't what they were. And why would they be? The master craftsmen simply moved over to Dominican, Honduras, Nicarauga, etc., so that they could continue to supply the American markets.



The intended effect was to hurt Cuba and bring the regime to its knees by economically starving them. It didn't do anything to the regime. They still claim to be communist, and the extent to which any minimal reforms have been implemented, it has been in response to internal pressures.
 
A totalitarian left-wing regime is extremely harder to get rid of than a right-wing dictatorship. The Castroit regime will not allow free election that will cost them losing power. Cubans known better than to expect help from the Obama administration or the Pope. As Berta Soler, the leader of the Ladies in White said, “The European Union, the U.S.A., Pope Francis — they have turned their backs on us.” She also said that Obama had given “a green light to the Cuban government to crush civil society.”
 
Sandokan said:
A totalitarian left-wing regime is extremely harder to get rid of than a right-wing dictatorship. The Castroit regime will not allow free election that will cost them losing power. Cubans known better than to expect help from the Obama administration or the Pope. As Berta Soler, the leader of the Ladies in White said, “The European Union, the U.S.A., Pope Francis — they have turned their backs on us.” She also said that Obama had given “a green light to the Cuban government to crush civil society.”
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Oh please tell us why it is "harder to get rid of a (totalitarian left-wing regime) than a right-wing dictatorship". In both cases, ordinary people are suffering but why do you see the lefties as being so much tougher than the righties?
 
fmw said:
I can't. I wasn't there. I was offered a commission in the group but refused it. That turned out to be a good decision.



You do understand, don't you, that the U.S. government didn't run the invasion? It may have contributed financially but the invasion was planned and operated by Cuban expats. Some of them were family members of mine.
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The US planned and organized it and trained, funded and armed the expats.

MAR 1960: The CIA begins training 300 guerrillas, initially in the U.S. and the Canal Zone
MAR 17, 1960: At an Oval Office meeting with high-ranking national security officials, President Eisenhower approves a Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) policy paper titled "A Program of Covert Action Against the Castro Regime."...begin training a para?military force outside Cuba.
MAY 19, 1960: A small group from Brigade 2506, housed by the CIA in the motel Marie Antonet in Fort Lauderdale, are met by Manuel Artíme and two CIA officials, "Jimmy and Karl." Jimmy is identified as the chief of the operation, and later as chief of the infiltration team. The team is subsequently transported to Ussepa Island off the Florida coast for training of the Brigade 2506. Other members of the brigade arrive later and are assigned numbers, including José Basulta (2522), and Rafael Quintero (2527). The training is originally scheduled to last 15 days but extends into a month and a half. In early July, the Brigadistas are transferred by plane to camps in Guatemala.
EARLY JULY 1960: Exile forces being trained on Ussepa Island are transferred to bases in Guatemala.

The Miami Herald considers publishing a story by David Kraslow about CIA training of Cuban exiles near Homestead, Florida. The story reports that the Justice and State departments are unhappy about this violation of the Neutrality Act and are pressuring President Eisenhower to move all such CIA training operations; and that the exiles are to be sent into Cuba to wage guerrilla war against Castro. After meeting with Allen Dulles and being informed that publication would be most harmful to the national interest, the paper's editors decide not to print the story

AUG 18, 1960: President Eisenhower approves a budget of $13 million for the covert anti-Castro operation, as well as the use of the Department of Defense personnel and equipment.
SEP 28, 1960: The CIA attempts its first drop of weapons and supplies to the Cuban resistance.
OCT 31, 1960: Cable from CIA Headquarters to senior agency officer in Guatemala outlines plan for amphibious invasion of Cuba by assault force of at least 1,500 men who will receive conventional military training. (CIA, Classified Message, October 31, 1960)
NOV 8-9, 1960: The CIA informs the Special Group of its plans, including a change in the conception of the operation from guerrilla infiltration to amphibious invasion and there is no approval or disapproval.

you get the picture
 
Tuatara said:
The US planned and organized it and trained, funded and armed the expats.

MAR 1960: The CIA begins training 300 guerrillas, initially in the U.S. and the Canal Zone
MAR 17, 1960: At an Oval Office meeting with high-ranking national security officials, President Eisenhower approves a Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) policy paper titled "A Program of Covert Action Against the Castro Regime."...begin training a para?military force outside Cuba.
MAY 19, 1960: A small group from Brigade 2506, housed by the CIA in the motel Marie Antonet in Fort Lauderdale, are met by Manuel Artíme and two CIA officials, "Jimmy and Karl." Jimmy is identified as the chief of the operation, and later as chief of the infiltration team. The team is subsequently transported to Ussepa Island off the Florida coast for training of the Brigade 2506. Other members of the brigade arrive later and are assigned numbers, including José Basulta (2522), and Rafael Quintero (2527). The training is originally scheduled to last 15 days but extends into a month and a half. In early July, the Brigadistas are transferred by plane to camps in Guatemala.
EARLY JULY 1960: Exile forces being trained on Ussepa Island are transferred to bases in Guatemala.

The Miami Herald considers publishing a story by David Kraslow about CIA training of Cuban exiles near Homestead, Florida. The story reports that the Justice and State departments are unhappy about this violation of the Neutrality Act and are pressuring President Eisenhower to move all such CIA training operations; and that the exiles are to be sent into Cuba to wage guerrilla war against Castro. After meeting with Allen Dulles and being informed that publication would be most harmful to the national interest, the paper's editors decide not to print the story

AUG 18, 1960: President Eisenhower approves a budget of $13 million for the covert anti-Castro operation, as well as the use of the Department of Defense personnel and equipment.
SEP 28, 1960: The CIA attempts its first drop of weapons and supplies to the Cuban resistance.
OCT 31, 1960: Cable from CIA Headquarters to senior agency officer in Guatemala outlines plan for amphibious invasion of Cuba by assault force of at least 1,500 men who will receive conventional military training. (CIA, Classified Message, October 31, 1960)
NOV 8-9, 1960: The CIA informs the Special Group of its plans, including a change in the conception of the operation from guerrilla infiltration to amphibious invasion and there is no approval or disapproval.

you get the picture
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Yes. That is what I said.
 
fmw said:
Yes. That is what I said.
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No it is not. You said "You do understand, don't you, that the U.S. government didn't run the invasion? It may have contributed financially but the invasion was planned and operated by Cuban expats." You Basically stated that the US only participated financially when they were the ones that implemented the plan from the beginning. The ex-pats were merely their puppets.
 
Thrilla said:
the Cuban people keep Castro propped up as their dictator...they, by and large, are not hapless victims of the regime, they are willing accomplices.
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Like we left them a choice. Communist Cuba is a product of our own hubris. We choose to support a brutal dictator in exchange for monetary gains and the Cuban people have been suffering for 50 years because of it. Castro came to us first and we refused to help.
 
iguanaman said:
Like we left them a choice. Communist Cuba is a product of our own hubris. We choose to support a brutal dictator in exchange for monetary gains and the Cuban people have been suffering for 50 years because of it. Castro came to us first and we refused to help.
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well, that was dumb.

we've supported the Cuban government since 1902, when they first won their independence ( they were under Spanish rule, then officially became a US protectorate (Treaty of Paris).. which ended in 1902)
but yes, we did support Batista during his 7 years reign as dictator... and we supported him when he was elected President as well (1940-44)

to that point, you really can't whine about supporting a dictator and then turn around and say we should support the Castro regime...its hypocritical.
if you believe we should not have supported Batista, you have no logically consistent argument as to why we should support Castro.

as for hte people suffering.. well, castor has been quite popular over those 50 years, and we have no duty or responsibility to have relations with anyone.... their suffering is of their own accord.
Cubans know all about the embargo and restriction placed on Cuba/US relations.. and furthermore, they have known how to end them... they choose not to.

and yes, we chose not to help Castro, which was a wise choice.... a choice we should have made with Batista as well.... we should not be in the business of supporting dictators , empowering their regimes, or rewarding them.
if I had my druthers, we'd exterminate dictators with prejudice.... barring that, we very least we should do is cut off relations with their country and let them fend for themselves without any sort of aid from the US.
obviously, my opinion is in the minority nowadays... many folks, probably a majority in the country, lean towards supporting tyrannical dictators... our President included.

in any event, we're used to liberals blaming the US for everything that happens on the planet.. we're used to you folks removing responsibility entirely for any other involved party.... so it comes as no surprise you would hold Cuba and the Castros blameless in this situation.... the Castors thank you for your support.
 
Somerville said:
Oh please tell us why it is "harder to get rid of a (totalitarian left-wing regime) than a right-wing dictatorship". In both cases, ordinary people are suffering but why do you see the lefties as being so much tougher than the righties?
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left wing totalitarians generally offer up free ****, as it were. .... they usually gain power (through populism) based on the government providing wide spread benefits and reforms that are allegedly "good" for the lower class people.... those policies lead to popularity, which leads to the dictators being hard to remove..... that's the layman version of it anyways.

right wing dictators generally show up riding on the backs of the ,military, or God....the ones riding Gods coattails into power are incredibly hard to remove from power, but the militants generally don't enjoy widespread support for very long.

in either case, the subjugation of the people occurs, though in the left wing versions the people sell themselves into slavery hoping to get the benefits promised to them by the left wing totalitarian leaders
 
The sad spectacle of Obama’s upcoming trip to Cuba
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...spectacle-of-obamas-upcoming-tribute-to-cuba/

By Ed Rogers February 19, 2016

The White House announcement that President Obama will be making a trip to Cuba next month was muted by the fact that Donald Trump was shouting down Pope Francis. Trump’s lack of judgment and grace was once again on blaring display, which meant the president’s humiliating capitulation to Cuba didn’t get the attention it deserves.

If President Obama had called a meeting after his re-election and asked his advisers what he could do to strengthen the Castro regime during his last four years in office, I don’t think the administration would have done anything different. It is a sad realization, but it’s something of a fitting piece to the end of the Obama presidency that the president is giving a helping hand to one of the last and most brutal communist regimes in the world. And in Cuba, what is good for the regime is bad for the people. There is no argument to be made that Obama’s gifts to the Castro regime have produced any dividends that have benefited the Cuban people – or, for that matter, Americans. Isn’t American foreign policy supposed to protect American interests first and foremost? How is it that strengthening the Castro regime is good for Americans?
Click link above for full article.
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Obama trip will invigorate the Castroit tyrannical regime. The regime was facing a very tough situation with Venezuela in the brink of an economic meltdown. He has been throwing a lifeline to the regime. Obama trip will be another achievement in his hall of failures.
 
fmw said:
We ask the Cuban people if they would prefer to have a situation similar to the Puerto Ricans and if they want it we have a very aggressive talk with the Castros. How do you think it works?
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You think Castro will just let us walk in and take over the island?
 
Thrilla said:
the Cuban people keep Castro propped up as their dictator...they, by and large, are not hapless victims of the regime, they are willing accomplices.
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If you have been to Cuba, as I have many times, you would know differently. GITMO had many Cuban civilian (Special Category) workers and they talked about the way of life outside the gates. The numbers were shrinking as the years went by.
 
RetiredUSN said:
If you have been to Cuba, as I have many times, you would know differently. GITMO had many Cuban civilian (Special Category) workers and they talked about the way of life outside the gates. The numbers were shrinking as the years went by.
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there are surely dissidents and folks who don't support the regime, or the life the regime has forced them into..... but by and large ( key words) the regime still has popular support.
 
Obama draws lines in the sand only to cross them when it suits him, like in the case of the chemical weapons in Syria. Iran was on the brink of political change as oil prices, sanctions and popular dissent were undermining the Islamic regime power, when Obama through it a lifeline. His travel to Cuba will not benefit the Cuban people nor improve the human rights.
 
Sandokan said:
Obama draws lines in the sand only to cross them when it suits him, like in the case of the chemical weapons in Syria. Iran was on the brink of political change as oil prices, sanctions and popular dissent were undermining the Islamic regime power, when Obama through it a lifeline. His travel to Cuba will not benefit the Cuban people nor improve the human rights.
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Will they be able to find fugitive Miss Shakur in Cuba?
 
We broke off diplomatic relations with Cuba because of a bunch of nonsense and meddling that could have been worked out.
SEP 2, 1960: At a demonstration in the Plaza Civica to respond to the OAS vote, Fidel Castro declares: "If they continue the economic aggression against our country, we will continue nationalizing U.S. businesses." (Informe Especial: 1960)
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Cubans suffered. It is time to mend the fences and give Cubans a fighting chance.
While we are at it, Moore is now free to move about the country he so admires.
 
Why can't presidents just use the telephone to talk over things with foreign leaders, instead of this expensive traveling? Especially a compassionate president like Obama who is concerned about global warming. This trip alone will put those of us on this planet closer to extinction. At least according to alarmists like Obama.
 
demsoc70 said:
Why can't presidents just use the telephone to talk over things with foreign leaders, instead of this expensive traveling? Especially a compassionate president like Obama who is concerned about global warming. This trip alone will put those of us on this planet closer to extinction. At least according to alarmists like Obama.
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........show
 
Obama in Cuba
Obama, Cuba, and His Upcoming Trip

by Jay Nordlinger February 22, 2016 12:00 AM
@jaynordlinger

How this president rolls

So President Obama will travel to Cuba next month. This was inevitable, after his opening to the regime in December 2014. We had just had our midterm elections, remember. Obama had only two years left to go in his presidency.

Do you recall the joke he made a few months later? It was pretty funny, actually, and quite revealing. “After the midterm elections,” he said, “my advisers asked me, ‘Mr. President, do you have a bucket list?’

And I said, ‘Well, I have something that rhymes with “bucket list.”’” After it was announced that Obama would go to Cuba, I was of two minds. Part of me wanted to yawn: “The damage was already done, in December 2014. What difference does a trip make? This is just Obama being Obama, like a fish swimming. Ho-hum. Besides, I’ve already said all I can possibly say on Obama, the American Left, and the Castro dictatorship.”

But part of me thought I should maybe write a column. Back to the salt mines, once more. So here I am.
Click link above for full article.
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What is the Obama administration gaining from the Castroit regime? Cero, nada. What the administration is given to the regime? More money to keep enslaving the Cuban people.

Secretary Kerry Can't Provide Any Evidence of Improved Human Rights in Cuba.
 
katzgar said:
you need to realize the cuba missile crisis had nothing to do with cuba. you need to realize time marches on. get a grip.
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I think it is entirely appropriate that Obama is the first President since Calvin Coolidge to visit Cuba.
 
demsoc70 said:
This trip alone will put those of us on this planet closer to extinction.
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It is great that President Obama is going to Cuba and hopefully re-opening positive relations with Cuba. It is about time.
Joe
 
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