• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Is Libertarian A Party? Or a Goal Perspective?

Yes - after clearly indicating that if it is not coercive, it is not socialism.

I think the market socialists themselves are more entitled to label their political ideology what they want than the devotee of some manic-depressive Russian pop philosopher.
 
I think the market socialists themselves are more entitled to label their political ideology what they want than the devotee of some manic-depressive Russian pop philosopher.

You can label yourself a child molester, if you wish - after defining "molestation" in a way nobody else does. I just don't see what purpose would it serve, apart from infantile attention-getting.

What "Russian pop philosopher"? Some Bakhtin fan attacked your misappropriation of common terms? That's not surprising, but what does this have to do with libertarians? You can be a Bakhtinist and a libertarian, but it is not a rigid connection.
 
You have no chance to get from here to where you would like to see us go without the tinking happening first.

Or do you think you are just going to vote in a bunch of libertarians and that will change everything?

How's that working out?

Rarely getting to shoot at the right targets does not mean constantly shooting at the wrong targets is prefereable.

And I do see as "getting where I woud like to go" - going into that direction, even in the darkest political years, like the least one. There's much to bemoan, for a libertarianbut at the same time, my state (WA) for example did pass three(!) major initiatives - gay marriage, marijuana legalization, allowing charter schools - that can be only celebrated. And - after an awful start - the state legislation rapidly morphed into a potential heavy counterweight to the statist Governor: a handful of moderate Dems joined Republican to form an unprecedented form of split government.

You don't have to fill both chambers of the US Congress with true-blue classical liberals, to achieve some victories.
 
Big Industry kills more Americans than big government.

I'm not saying one is better. I'm saying both are equal in my eyes. In fact most people would agree that most of government corruption is because of big industry do to the beloved free market.

Give me an example of Big Industry killing americans. More so than say murderers or car accidents.
 
Rarely getting to shoot at the right targets does not mean constantly shooting at the wrong targets is prefereable.

And I do see as "getting where I woud like to go" - going into that direction, even in the darkest political years, like the least one. There's much to bemoan, for a libertarianbut at the same time, my state (WA) for example did pass three(!) major initiatives - gay marriage, marijuana legalization, allowing charter schools - that can be only celebrated. And - after an awful start - the state legislation rapidly morphed into a potential heavy counterweight to the statist Governor: a handful of moderate Dems joined Republican to form an unprecedented form of split government.

You don't have to fill both chambers of the US Congress with true-blue classical liberals, to achieve some victories.

The small victories are worth celebrating.

But here's the thing, as far as the federal government goes, nothing gets done that the money doesn't want done, clearly not respecting liberty.

As I have said, I think libertopia is impossible, but it doesn't mean I don't think we should have a government that is much more respectful of individual liberties, but in order to do that, the government is going to have to be forced to go cold turkey on campaign contributions just to have the autonomy to think about liberty.

The SYSTEM is corrupt, so even when honest people TRY to make a difference, they are corrupted just by playing.

You clearly disagree, but my opinion is that we can't get from where we are to anywhere good without changing the system.
 
nothing gets done that the money doesn't want done, clearly not respecting liberty.

"The money" is not some monolithic force or some alien god. It resides with actual people and organizations that have their agendas, covering all imaginable spectrum of politics, philosophies, self-interest etc. For every Soros, there's a Koch - and sometimes they fight each other, sometimes they join forces (like Soros and the Kochs on marijuana and immigration), and to some issues both are indifferent.

"Eliminating money from politics" will not solve any problems. It will simply shut up those who could buy the mike time for minority views, while cementing the influence of incumbents and the power derived from controlling the levers of the State itself.
 
"The money" is not some monolithic force or some alien god. It resides with actual people and organizations that have their agendas, covering all imaginable spectrum of politics, philosophies, self-interest etc. For every Soros, there's a Koch - and sometimes they fight each other, sometimes they join forces (like Soros and the Kochs on marijuana and immigration), and to some issues both are indifferent.

"Eliminating money from politics" will not solve any problems. It will simply shut up those who could buy the mike time for minority views, while cementing the influence of incumbents and the power derived from controlling the levers of the State itself.

Not even remotely close to being accurate.

Issues where there is a large benefit for a few on one side and a small benefit for all on the other go the direction of the few because they pay for it. There is no money flowing into campaign coffers to simplify the tax code, but there are millions of dollars being spent to keep it complex and make it more complex. There is no competing profit motive to spend on both sides of every issue, and many of the things that hurt us the most are not political issues, just legislation and clauses within legislation, for the benefit of campaign funders.

I describe it as death by a thousand cuts. when GE lobbyists have a little clause put into a bill, it doesn't necessarily hurt the country, but when thousands of interests, not just corporations, but unions, industry groups, foreign corporations, heck foreign governments get their little tiny pieces of legislation, year after year, the whole system becomes corrupted.

Conservatives and libertarian complain that government is too big, but who asks it to be bigger?

Special interests pay about 4 billion per election cycle in campaign contributions, for that, they get far too big of a say in how $4 trillion is spent.

I suggest we taxpayers pay that $4 billion so that people that represent us can actually represent US.

Large interests will still have the power to petition their representatives, and as a consequence of their size, they will be heard, but because there will be no quid-pro-quo, representatives will be able to make decisions based on the best interests of the country, not whaat their funders want.

Regulatory capture is a massive problem in our government, and there is no way to take away that power without taking away the power to influence with cash.

My previous example was the corporate tax code. If what you argue were true, then the millions of smaller corporations that would benefit from a lower rate with less complexity would have the power to influence policy, but that is not what happens, the concentrated influence of very large corporations massively outspend and out-lobby the smaller companies, so we get and continue to have a ridiculously complex corporate tax that allows big companies with lots of lawyers and accountants to game the system and pay little or no taxes, while the smaller companies pay much closer to the marginal rate.

General Electric's corporate tax return was 24,000 pages long, twenty four thousand pages! And they lobby to KEEP IT THAT way and even add more complexity, and they, along with the other very big companies, are very large and very important to our economy, but the smaller companies add up to even more in total, but the minority get's their way because of the disproportionate influence of concentrated wealth in the largest entities.

If you believe in a smaller government that is more accountable, there is no way you could possibly support the status quo of lobby and campaign spending.

If a large interests wants something, they will get an audience, but a representative who is not financially beholden to these interests can make decisions based on the merits.

Same with minority interests.
 
Conservatives and libertarian complain that government is too big, but who asks it to be bigger?

Not the libertarians

Special interests pay about 4 billion per election cycle in campaign contributions, for that, they get far too big of a say in how $4 trillion is spent.

They sure do. And this is why we've fallen to corporate capitalism and an entrenched one-party system with rules and regulations made to eliminate political competition.

Regulatory capture is a massive problem in our government, and there is no way to take away that power without taking away the power to influence with cash.

That is certainly a necessity. Corporate capitalism, the mixing of State and Corporate entity; this is what it is and this is how it operates. What we have now is exactly this system. A hallmark of fascism, BTW.

If you believe in a smaller government that is more accountable, there is no way you could possibly support the status quo of lobby and campaign spending.

Not sure there are many libertarians who would disagree. Did you see the thread in the polls section on allowing 3rd parties into the debates?
 
Not the libertarians



They sure do. And this is why we've fallen to corporate capitalism and an entrenched one-party system with rules and regulations made to eliminate political competition.



That is certainly a necessity. Corporate capitalism, the mixing of State and Corporate entity; this is what it is and this is how it operates. What we have now is exactly this system. A hallmark of fascism, BTW.



Not sure there are many libertarians who would disagree. Did you see the thread in the polls section on allowing 3rd parties into the debates?

I did see the poll, but I think it is largely irrelevant. Supporting third parties is great, but in practice, it's a pipe dream because of the systemic problems with campaign finance and lobbying. We'll get an occasional representative who is not part of the larger system, but as long as the corporatist system for selecting who we have to choose from is place, we are guaranteed only the status quo.

It will be an immensely difficult task to get corporatist influence out of the system and it can only be done when and if the majority of Americans, right, left, center, agree it has to be done. But as difficult as it will be, I think everything else that the government does will be more of the same, some tinkering around the edges while the players manipulate the legislation to their benefit.

There are a few strategies that people have come up with make these changes happen. I have considered attempting to organization a voting boycott, refusing to vote unless one of the candidates signs a pledge to support legislation to enact public financing nationwide. Since our votes are largely irrelevant now, wouldn't make much of a difference if we didn't cast one. But if the movement grew large enough to where a candidate would win if they signed the pledge, maybe it could make a difference in the long run.

I want to go back to the days when corporate influence was exerted with bags full of cash being caught meant a lenthy jail sentence. The problem will never go away, but it can be reduced to a manageable level. Making this bribery not only legal, but central to the system of choosing representatives will be our undoing if we don't fix it.
 
Back
Top Bottom