Indiana vouchers prompt thousands to change schools (1 Viewer)

Fun with lists!

RiverDad said:

-Normalization of homosexuality.

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Yeah, it's awful that all kinds of people be tolerated, celebrated, and treated equally.

-Celebration of historical figures of little merit only to appease race warriors who are badgering the schools to have a more racially diverse curriculum.

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Or, you know, rectifying past tendencies to ignore the achievements of some because of their race. Learning history is about learning what happened, not what you wish happened.

-The political and social aspects of environmentalism.

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I'm not really sure what you mean. Are you suggesting that there should not be an "Earth Science" class, or that children should not learn about conservation of resources and the delicate interactions of ecosystems? Really, that's two years of science classes out the window, Earth Science and Biology.

-The nonsense about "diversity is our strength."

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Racist overtones aside, isn't a variety of talents a useful thing to have? A homogeneous group is less able to deal with unexpected problems. Diversity is actually a strength. Maybe not in the touchy feely way that political correctness would suggest, but in a practical way. Besides, fundamentally, a person's intelligence and character is not dependent on something like race. Hell, diversity is even good for simply learning more. Someone who is only exposed to ideas they already know and agree with doesn't learn anything. We learn by going outside our comfort zone.

-The femininization of male behavior.

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Like what? Not raping people? Not suppressing all of one's emotions? Doing other than sitting around, watching football on television and drinking beer? Who the hell are you to decide what a man should be? Or what a woman should be? Or do you only think in TV stereotypes?

-The deemphasis of competition.

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1 for 6, not a good success rate. But even then, competition is not always the right answer. Sometimes cooperation is the lesson that needs to be taught. But if you're talking about not giving out bad grades because it makes the kids sad, or giving out participation trophies so everyone feels like a winner... yeah... that's a load of bull.

-The revision of historical events to align them with a more liberal world view.

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You mean like making up stories to show that "slavery wasn't so bad", or falsely claiming that Muslims, Jews, and other cultures were not a part of this country since the first settlers landed here in the 1600's, or glossing over imperialist policies and genocide committed by the United States in order to venerate the military and instill nationalism? Oh wait, those are lies told by the other side. Find me even one example to back up your claim, and I will be very surprised.

-The emphasis in Young Adult Literature on social dysfunction and the deemphasis on tales of historical heroes.

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If social dysfunction is the truth (and it has been for ten thousand years), then why shouldn't it be the subject of study? Social dysfunction is responsible for every revolution, every achievement, every cultural shift that brought us to forming the USA. You read A Clockwork Orange because it contains valuable commentary about how we live. And because the lingo is awesome. Youth right now feel a lot of social dysfunction. Bill O'Reiley blames them for all the evil in the world, and they see their elders sacrificing their futures for personal gain in the present. Young people have a lot of be dysfunctional about. It's only reasonable that they would want to read about characters they can relate to.

As for "historical heroes", are you suggesting that we should ignore their flaws and venerate them like gods? And who exactly are you talking about? Davy Crockett? George Washington? You do know that Washington was a notorious adulterer, right? Everyone has flaws. It's part of being human. Or do you mean like Julius Caesar? He was a bloody military commander who killed tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of people. Real heroes are people like firefighters who risk their lives to save others. Who are these heroes who supposedly deserve more recognition than they're getting?

These are just the social malignancies that liberals are introducing into the public schools. Don't even get me started on the pedagogical experiments.

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You mean the experiments that lead to improvements in teaching styles? The ones that demonstrate ways to help kids learn material and apply it, as opposed to just memorization without understanding?

I'm not sure why you think most of these things are bad.

Ikari said:

yeah, till the inner city kids start turning up in suburban schools. Then we'll see an end to it right quickly.

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Yep. Gawd forbid those poor inner school kids want to be educated with the 'other' ones. *gasp and rolls eyes* Also has anyone giving thought to the bullying that is about to do down. I bet not.

I am a firm supporter of public schools and when I vote I make sure on a local level my vote goes towards those I think will help the system.

Paschendale said:

Yeah, it's awful that all kinds of people be tolerated, celebrated, and treated equally.

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It's not for schools to impart social attitudes. That's the job of parents. You don't get a say in how other people raise their kids.

Or, you know, rectifying past tendencies to ignore the achievements of some because of their race. Learning history is about learning what happened, not what you wish happened.

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That's not what's going on here. What's going on is tokenism. People are elevated because of their identity and not because of their contribution to history.

I'm not really sure what you mean. Are you suggesting that there should not be an "Earth Science" class, or that children should not learn about conservation of resources and the delicate interactions of ecosystems? Really, that's two years of science classes out the window, Earth Science and Biology.

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Kids are sent home to lecture their parents on how not to send lunch for the kids in zip-loc bags. I said nothing about science - I freaking love science. It's the social garbage, the ideological garbage that environmentalists are pushing that has no place in schools. It's ideology.

Racist overtones aside, isn't a variety of talents a useful thing to have?

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You honestly think that people of different races have different talents?

A homogeneous group is less able to deal with unexpected problems.

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You're not accomplishing much here. I too have "benefited" by being subjected to this propaganda in school. I'm not that far removed from being a high school student myself. I know all of the talking points, so you can save your effort at "educating" me. Your claim is one of the propaganda points. Having a black kid in a class or a Muslim kid, for example, adds no unique talent that is held only by blacks or Muslims.

Diversity is actually a strength.

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The social science literature disagrees with you. It's a weakness and a pretty profound weakness. Diversity is bad for civic engagement.

Someone who is only exposed to ideas they already know and agree with doesn't learn anything. We learn by going outside our comfort zone.

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But when liberals are pushing the "Diversity is our strength" propaganda line, they're never talking about intellectual diversity, it's always race, culture and gender. New ideas are the spawn of intellectual diversity - different ways of thinking about things. Schools are not keen on fostering this type of diversity, sad to say. Public schools are, for the most part, an intellectual monoculture.

Like what?

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Many schools have removed honor rolls because the implicit message is that those who don't make honor rolls are losers. Anti-competition is a strong force in modern education theory. Pro-cooperation is the new fad these days. Boys are pretty damn competitive. Making them cooperate works against their best interests. Making them read about social dysfunction in their Young Adult Literature turns them off when they want to be reading about heroes and sports legends and the old West figures.

You mean like making up stories to show that "slavery wasn't so bad", or falsely claiming that Muslims, Jews, and other cultures were not a part of this country since the first settlers landed here in the 1600's

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Yup, exactly that stuff. We all know that the Mayflower was brimming over with Muslims but that's not important right now. If I want my kids subjected to cultural sensitivity then I'll do it, I don't need a liberal imposing his agenda on my kids and skewing the historical record in order to create false equivalences.

If social dysfunction is the truth (and it has been for ten thousand years), then why shouldn't it be the subject of study?

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The mission of an English class is to improve the reading and writing skills of the students, not to preach a position or to educate on social dysfunction. Assigning books which make the eyes of kids roll back into their heads works against the primary mission of the English class. The kids have a lifetime ahead of them to learn about social dysfunction. They can touch on it in health class. They can touch on it in classes designed to address that topic. Injecting "socially relevant literature" in order to push an agenda simply undermines the mission of teaching an English class. Some works with literary merit are fine, when they are age appropriate. They're not the focus of my complaint.

As for "historical heroes", are you suggesting that we should ignore their flaws and venerate them like gods?

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The simple answer to your loaded question is yes. We're not doing enough to create common bonds, shared experiences, cross generational understanding, appreciation for one's history, pride in country. Leftists want to tear down and reveal flaws and minimize history. That's not appropriate for public schooling. When the subject matter so interests someone that they really want to dig into the material, then there are AP classes and college level courses that are perfect for critical examinations and the students would have a greater level of sophistication to analyze the material and weigh the pros and cons.

And who exactly are you talking about? Davy Crockett? George Washington? You do know that Washington was a notorious adulterer, right?

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And why does 8 year old Timmy need to know that and why is it necessary to have 8 year old Timmy getting all the nitty gritty details on what exactly adultery is?

You mean the experiments that lead to improvements in teaching styles? The ones that demonstrate ways to help kids learn material and apply it, as opposed to just memorization without understanding?

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Hey, this is the field of education that we're talking about here. Good research design is as foreign to most education researchers as an autographed photo of George Bush is to Barack Obama. When you have hundreds of professional mathematicians putting up their own money to take out full page ads in national newspapers decrying the math reforms that high school education theorists are imposing on the nation's public schools and who've taken apart the laughable "studies" that formed the intellectual case for reform, then that should be a strong clue that reform often doesn't "lead to improvements in teaching styles."

I'm not sure why you think most of these things are bad.

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You don't have to understand. That's the beauty of being pro-choice.

I must have missed the answer: How much time do you spend in a classroom on a weekly basis?

That may, or may not, be true and in either case it's irrelevant. It's not for liberals to impart their social values onto other people's children. If parents are objecting to this type of socialization being imposed on their children then we've pretty much falsified your position that "Another option is for parents/schools/government to work together for the benefit of our children. There is no reason why this cannot happen."

Now, if you were a teacher and you acted upon these private beliefs, it really wouldn't be kosher. What you're demonstrating, if you're a teacher, is that you have no interest in working together for the benefit of the children by removing all of the social indoctrination that liberals have injected into the system. What you mean by working together is continuing what you're doing and parents shutting up.

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So, liberal social values are...??? Immoral? Amoral? Hinky?

I'll bet that you have some people fooled by your authoritative tone--but what you actually say is pretty much...crap.

For example: If parents are objecting to this type of socialization being imposed on their children...blah blah blah...

That 'if' is huge. The only place I see this kind of comment is on chat boards. I've never heard a parent 'object' to whatever 'this type of socialization' is in a classroom.

I act on 'private beliefs' all the time.

Like, for instance, I believe that every child in the building has the right to be safe--so, I step in when I see a situation that I deem unsafe. One time, that situation involved a kid and a gun.
Or, the time I got between two high school boys who were in a fist fight--not safe, that.
I also hold the 'private belief' that people should be treated with respect. Gay, straight, Muslim, Christian, atheist, nose-picker--respect first.

Those are a few of those pesky 'private beliefs' I hold dear.

GBee said:

I must have missed the answer: How much time do you spend in a classroom on a weekly basis?

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Four to six hours per week. Thanks for caring.

GBee said:

That 'if' is huge. The only place I see this kind of comment is on chat boards. I've never heard a parent 'object' to whatever 'this type of socialization' is in a classroom.

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That settles it, then. If you haven't seen it then it must not exist. We've all been hallucinating about people camping out in front of public schools which offer a traditional curriculum. We've been hallucinating about the rise in Charter Schools. Everyone is happy with what liberals have done to the public school system.

Never mind about this part of the OP story:

RiverDad said:

Four to six hours per week. Thanks for caring.

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And how much of your social values are you imparting on other peoples' children?

What, exactly, are YOUR 'private beliefs' that you are acting upon when you're in the classrooms?

RiverDad said:

That settles it, then. If you haven't seen it then it must not exist. We've all been hallucinating about people camping out in front of public schools which offer a traditional curriculum. We've been hallucinating about the rise in Charter Schools. Everyone is happy with what liberals have done to the public school system.

Never mind about this part of the OP story:

Weeks after Indiana began the nation’s broadest school voucher program, thousands of students have transferred from public to private schools, causing a spike in enrollment at some Catholic institutions that were only recently on the brink of closing for lack of pupils.
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I haven't ever seen anyone camping in front of a school.

As for the sarcasm--it doesn't further dialogue. But it does give me some insight into you.

AdamT said:

Right, and that points out the other problem. Now, instead of being able to go to a so-so school in their own neighborhood, these kids are going to have to ride busses for an hour and a half to go to another school.

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So what you are saying is you are against choice because of a longer bus ride? I don't know, seems stupid if you ask me.

Paschendale said:

No matter how many vouchers are given out, it's a system that can never cover every child. Unless there's actually one for every child, but that would essentially mimic public education. Funneling children out of the public system and removing support for it will weaken it. There's no way around that. Private education can only help some children. The only way to educate all of them is through public education.

Vouchers only help promote a system where education is something only the rich can afford. They are a short term solution that sacrifices the long term gain.

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Where do you get the idea private education couldn't be used by everyone? The only reason private schools today are for certain class people(btw not just rich people go to private schools) is because public schools make them special.

GBee said:

I haven't ever seen anyone camping in front of a school.

As for the sarcasm--it doesn't further dialogue. But it does give me some insight into you.

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What must it be like to live your life? Nothing exists in the world unless you've experienced or witnessed it personally. What kind of intellect does it take to think that writing "I haven't ever seen anyone camping in front of a school" is a convincing response to a comment? Pity the students who have to be subjected to this type of thinking from a teacher.

Cutting funding to public schools does not make them better. Eight years of Mitch Daniels has proved that.

Let's hope Hoosiers figure that out before they elect Pence to attack public schools for the next eight years.

Public schools have always complained that they want smaller class sizes. Now they have their wish.

Helix said:

Cutting funding to public schools does not make them better. Eight years of Mitch Daniels has proved that.

Let's hope Hoosiers figure that out before they elect Pence to attack public schools for the next eight years.

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Giving them more money apparently hasn't worked too well either. Money without a doubt is not the problem with the public schools system. Many, many public school districts are drunk with money. They use it mostly to enrich the bureaucracy rather than the shools themselves and individual teachers. We are just pouring money into a broken, inefficient system. The arrogance of this forced, unaccountable education system is incredible.

RiverDad said:

What must it be like to live your life? Nothing exists in the world unless you've experienced or witnessed it personally. What kind of intellect does it take to think that writing "I haven't ever seen anyone camping in front of a school" is a convincing response to a comment? Pity the students who have to be subjected to this type of thinking from a teacher.

Open enrollment for magnet schools at Cincinnati Public doesn't start until Wednesday, but some parents are already camped out to ensure their child gets in.​

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What makes you think that making the claim, '...people camping in front of schools...' is a convincing argument?

You honestly don't see that you're doing the very thing you're accusing me of doing? LOL

What 'private beliefs' are you subjecting students to during your 4-6 hours a week in their classrooms?

What 'social indoctrination' do you practice on these kids?

RiverDad said:

It's not for schools to impart social attitudes. That's the job of parents. You don't get a say in how other people raise their kids.

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Yeah, actually, I do. We all do. We live in communities together. If someone raises a child poorly, we all have to suffer the consequences when someone unknowingly trusts that person with responsibility and they screw it up. The religiously raised son who doesn't believe in birth control might just knock up somebody else's daughter someday. The physical act of making a child does not qualify a person to impart wisdom to that child. It is parental selfishness that creates this attitude, and it is false. no one is raised solely, or even primarily by their parents. They are raised by the world around them. When this country gets over its obsession with fake parental sovereignty, then kids will be better prepared to be adults.

That's not what's going on here. What's going on is tokenism. People are elevated because of their identity and not because of their contribution to history.

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Okay, who exactly did you have in mind? Because I've never heard of any of this happening. Ever.

Kids are sent home to lecture their parents on how not to send lunch for the kids in zip-loc bags. I said nothing about science - I freaking love science. It's the social garbage, the ideological garbage that environmentalists are pushing that has no place in schools. It's ideology.

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So, these kids learn that plastic is a valuable and limited resource, and repeat what they have learned to their parents. Not seeing the problem here. If parents get upset about children learning about real problems that they will face in their lifetimes, it seems like the parents are the ones with the problems.

You honestly think that people of different races have different talents?

You're not accomplishing much here. I too have "benefited" by being subjected to this propaganda in school. I'm not that far removed from being a high school student myself. I know all of the talking points, so you can save your effort at "educating" me. Your claim is one of the propaganda points. Having a black kid in a class or a Muslim kid, for example, adds no unique talent that is held only by blacks or Muslims.

The social science literature disagrees with you. It's a weakness and a pretty profound weakness. Diversity is bad for civic engagement.

But when liberals are pushing the "Diversity is our strength" propaganda line, they're never talking about intellectual diversity, it's always race, culture and gender. New ideas are the spawn of intellectual diversity - different ways of thinking about things. Schools are not keen on fostering this type of diversity, sad to say. Public schools are, for the most part, an intellectual monoculture.

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These will get answered together. The underlying principal that informs racial diversity being positive is intellectual diversity. Different people, with different talents and ideas, coming together to learn more and tackle more problems. Your example of the "one black or Muslim kid" is a foolish one. The point is that you don't limit people. You don't artificially divide people. Honestly, I'm not really here to save you from yourself, so you can go on thinking that white, heterosexual Christians are somehow superior to everyone else if you like.

Many schools have removed honor rolls because the implicit message is that those who don't make honor rolls are losers. Anti-competition is a strong force in modern education theory. Pro-cooperation is the new fad these days. Boys are pretty damn competitive. Making them cooperate works against their best interests. Making them read about social dysfunction in their Young Adult Literature turns them off when they want to be reading about heroes and sports legends and the old West figures.

Yup, exactly that stuff. We all know that the Mayflower was brimming over with Muslims but that's not important right now. If I want my kids subjected to cultural sensitivity then I'll do it, I don't need a liberal imposing his agenda on my kids and skewing the historical record in order to create false equivalences.

The mission of an English class is to improve the reading and writing skills of the students, not to preach a position or to educate on social dysfunction. Assigning books which make the eyes of kids roll back into their heads works against the primary mission of the English class. The kids have a lifetime ahead of them to learn about social dysfunction. They can touch on it in health class. They can touch on it in classes designed to address that topic. Injecting "socially relevant literature" in order to push an agenda simply undermines the mission of teaching an English class. Some works with literary merit are fine, when they are age appropriate. They're not the focus of my complaint.

The simple answer to your loaded question is yes. We're not doing enough to create common bonds, shared experiences, cross generational understanding, appreciation for one's history, pride in country. Leftists want to tear down and reveal flaws and minimize history. That's not appropriate for public schooling. When the subject matter so interests someone that they really want to dig into the material, then there are AP classes and college level courses that are perfect for critical examinations and the students would have a greater level of sophistication to analyze the material and weigh the pros and cons.

And why does 8 year old Timmy need to know that and why is it necessary to have 8 year old Timmy getting all the nitty gritty details on what exactly adultery is?

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Oh, so you just want your version of history taught so you can push your propaganda. Everyone else's is, of course, wrong. Old west heroes? Sports figures? These are who you suggest as role models for kids? In reality, most of the famous old west characters were outlaws, violent criminals. And what on Earth is heroic about sports? How exactly is Mickey Mantle a roll model for anyone other than baseball players? These people are not humanitarians, not great thinkers, they didn't protect the lives of other people, they didn't give of themselves to improve the world. These are not roll models. Nor are military figures, if you were wondering.

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I was going to get farther into this... but I'm honestly just tired of it. You probably think that the guys who did the school play were all gay, don't you? I see from your writing a misguided reverence for macho attitude. That is not a virtue. Men don't like being pigeonholed into living that way, and women don't like being around it. Your idols beat their wives. Good on ya!

You seem to be advocating blind nationalism, by ignoring the flaws and actual humanity of our history. You make claims of lies, but don't show any supporting evidence. You do know that Leave it to Beaver wasn't real, right? No one's life actually looked like that, and no matter how many black kids you keep out of schools, that TV show will never come true.

Ikari said:

Indeed, but parents usually freak out huge if new forms of violence begin breaking out near their children. Lovejoy and all.

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If that was true, inner city schools would have fewer students..

AdamT said:

I don't have kids either. Can I get a voucher to buy boating supplies and camera equipment?

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Sure as soon as I can quit paying into SS and medicaid.

Voucher program is nothing but another welfare program for the Rich...It allows the rich to send their kids to private schools and have Taxpayers pay for it....Who wouldn't love that deal!

Government of the rich for the rich by the rich..keep the masses stupid and ignorant so they would ample cheap powerless labor force. It is a great deal no matter how you look at it.

Diving Mullah said:

Voucher program is nothing but another welfare program for the Rich...It allows the rich to send their kids to private schools and have Taxpayers pay for it....Who wouldn't love that deal!

Government of the rich for the rich by the rich..keep the masses stupid and ignorant so they would ample cheap powerless labor force. It is a great deal no matter how you look at it.

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The vast majority of successful private schools won't take vouchers because they don't need to. Why? Because they will not trade their expertise in return for for some cash and mandates from the federal government.

Actually all of the private school that I deal with, including few Catholic one, are more than happy to take Vouchers