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Stop Coddling the Super-Rich

This is, perhaps, the biggest piece of hogwash I've ever read.

Everyone's a critic. Well you are entitled to your opinion. It might be more constructive for the dialogue if rather than simply nay saying or loading up some screed filled with emotional rhetoric, which appears to be the standard rejoinder to posts that contradict the personal beliefs held by those on the right here in these forums, you might consider actually offering a superior reasoned alternative, or at least a critique that points out what the flaw in my argument might be?
 
Everyone's a critic. Well you are entitled to your opinion. It might be more constructive for the dialogue if rather than simply nay saying or loading up some screed filled with emotional rhetoric, which appears to be the standard rejoinder to posts that contradict the personal beliefs held by those on the right here in these forums, you might consider actually offering a superior reasoned alternative, or at least a critique that points out what the flaw in my argument might be?
A reasoned argument superior to your hogwash?
Sure.

1: The wealth belongs to their estate, not the people of the United States. That wealth will not be "redistributed" as the term is -correctly- used.
2: "Proper" redisribution is subjective, and thus, you present a useless argument. Not liking the way someone might spend inherited money is not an argument for eliminating said inheritance.
3: Government does not exist to guarantee [that] the American Dream continues to be something available to ALL the children of this great nation. As such, you proceed from a false premise.

As I said: Hogwash.
 
Government does not exist to guarantee [that] the American Dream continues to be something available to ALL the children of this great nation. As such, you proceed from a false premise.

Really?!

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."
 
Really?!
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men,
I'm not sure where you got your education. I strongly advise you demand a refund.
The statement you quoted illustrates that the government was instituted to PROTECT the rights to life, liberty and property, not to PROVIDE the means to exercise those rights, or GUARANTEE that your are able to exercise those rights to whatever degree you might like.
 
I'm not sure where you got your education. I strongly advise you demand a refund.
The statement you quoted illustrates that the government was instituted to PROTECT the rights to life, liberty and property, not to PROVIDE the means to exercise those rights, or GUARANTEE that your are able to exercise those rights to whatever degree you might like.

You might want to check out a remedial reading course. In fact it says that governments are formed to "secure" these rights. And "secure" has multiple meanings:


1 a: to relieve from exposure to danger : act to make safe against adverse contingencies <secure a supply line from enemy raids> b: to put beyond hazard of losing or of not receiving : guarantee <secure the blessings of liberty — United States Constitution> c: to give pledge of payment to (a creditor) or of (an obligation) <secure a note by a pledge of collateral>


...


3 a: to get secure usually lasting possession or control of <secure a job>
 
You might want to check out a remedial reading course. In fact it says that governments are formed to "secure" these rights. And "secure" has multiple meanings:
:roll:
Yes. Now, because I am -more- than happy to provide you with yet another venue to display your nearly-intolerable ignorance - show us which, if any, of these defintions was in the mind of the person who wrote it.
Be sure to provide citations.
 
:roll:
Yes. Now, because I am -more- than happy to provide you with yet another venue to display your nearly-intolerable ignorance - show us which, if any, of these defintions was in the mind of the person who wrote it.
Be sure to provide citations.

You mean you don't have such mind reading ability? And you sounded so confident of yourself! :lol:
 
You mean you don't have such mind reading ability? And you sounded so confident of yourself! :lol:
Glad that I could help you fail, yet again.
:clap:
 
:roll:
Yes. Now, because I am -more- than happy to provide you with yet another venue to display your nearly-intolerable ignorance - show us which, if any, of these defintions was in the mind of the person who wrote it.
Be sure to provide citations.

Epic fail dude. Just sayin'.

Do you get some sort of satisfaction continually embarassing yourself in your desired method of debate? It is like some sort of fetish?

Don't let me stand in your way.

Carry on.
 
Glad that I could help you fail, yet again.
:clap:

Failed at what, exactly? Complying with an impossible request? Well, simple things amuse simple minds.
 
So on the one hand you support the right of people to do as they please with their money and on the other hand you object to people structuring their affairs to avoid exposing themselves to the estate tax that they don't support. Must everyone always comply with the way you them to comply?





Two branches to your concern. First, certified infertile incestuous couples nullify your concern. Second, does the state have an interest in preventing birth defects from women who've entered into their late 30s and early 40s and so present a higher risk profile for delivering a Down's child and does the government have an interest in policing the coupling of Jewish couples who are both carriers of Tays Sachs?



What exactly does it mean to minimize equality of opportunity? I have my own ideas on the matter but they're not at all anchored in the liberal mindset. Is there an age limit at which your vision of this society declares that the unequal outcome of an individual has been caused by their life choices and not by a lack of opportunity? Is this merely a shorthand for saying "Society will help you get an education up to the undergraduate level and then you're on your own" or do you envision handholding up until they die from old age?

What are liberals such as yourself willing to give in return for a minimization of opportunity inequality? One of the primary drivers of growing inequality is immigration. If we have a leaky bucket, and you're trying to equalize the water level, then you need to constantly pour more water into the bucket in order to just stay even. We're importing poverty and we're importing people who come from populations with little, or no, record of replicating the success we see in the US. We're heading to a future of racial and class division. I get that your are focused on avoiding the class division and you think that "sharing the wealth" is the key to overcome such a future scenario, but I know of no society which has prospered by focusing on sharing the wealth. Your vision of a community working together in pursuit of shared values is being eroded by the liberal fetish for diversity. The more you push diversity the greater will be the fracture of community and shared values, and this will, and already is, causing pushback against schemes to share the wealth.

I'm just no seeing a cohesive vision coming from the wealth redistributionist faction.



That's not for me to say. I have no business intervening in people's life choices. This is, after all, the mantra of the left. Yes, I know the left has a sex fetish issue and they want to let a thousand flowers bloom with no interference on sexual issues from interested bystanders, but it sure strikes me as odd that as soon as freedom and choices run against the left's anti-family ideology, then all bets are off and it's just fine to judge and intervene in people's life choices.

Why not simply take solace from the truism, "From shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations." Fortunes get diluted over time because they get split finer and finer with each passing generation. The ambition and moxy required to build a great fortune are rare talents and history is replete with examples of families not being able to replicate the talents of the patriarch. Even now, the great fortunes in the US are those of self-made men. We have to go far down the list to find the first instance of a fortune that has passed through more than one generation.

In short, time will heal the wounds that you think are being caused, so let time work its magic instead of raping the personal sovereignty of people and imposing a moralistic viewpoint on how they should lead their lives.



You're sounding like a naive school kid - we both know that tax revenue goes into general revenue and then politicians disperse it to their cronies. Even taxes designed for specific purposes get railroaded into general revenue.

If that's the outcome that you're seeking then why not encourage wealthy people to create 10,000 scholarships and avoid using the violence of government to compel such an outcome? That removes all of my objections for it results in freely made choices and it takes government out of the picture and the money is spent in the fashion that the donors wanted the money spent.


The problem is the drug addicted child will have no reason, even a thought to donate money to the scholarships. And what protects his investment among individuals calling themselves charity organizations that would mispend his money unwisely, set up a foundation to live off & bleed the donation dry.

Second point here by AdmaT that is overlooked, this mass fortune setting there generation after generation, robs the economic foundation of America, that is better used in circulation through banks. Everything in life doesn't have to be an investment, etc.. People can actually afford to spread their wealth around like gates does. You damn sure are not taking it with you when you go. There should be a limit to what can be passed on to relatives regardless of how much you have accumulated in your lifetime. No, I don't think the individual is the best person to manage money, look at the lifes of million dollar lotto winners and how they wasted it.
 
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A reasoned argument superior to your hogwash?
Sure.

1: The wealth belongs to their estate, not the people of the United States. That wealth will not be "redistributed" as the term is -correctly- used.
2: "Proper" redisribution is subjective, and thus, you present a useless argument. Not liking the way someone might spend inherited money is not an argument for eliminating said inheritance.
3: Government does not exist to guarantee [that] the American Dream continues to be something available to ALL the children of this great nation. As such, you proceed from a false premise.

As I said: Hogwash.

1. Of course the wealth belongs to the estate. But since the former owner of that estate is dead, the question concerning who owns it now remains to be resolved.
2. I suppose I should have used "responsible" or "careful" or "safe." No one is arguing for the elimination of inheritance, only the responsible reduction of it, for the safety of all. I can think of several ways in which a large inheritance might lead to harm, both to the inheritor and to others. I cannot think of any way in which distributing some portion of a particularly large estate to the people could do the same.
3. It's not the government, I am talking about here. It is the citizens of that government. And it is not necessary that each individual should desire to see to it that the American Dream remains a real possibility for all children of this nation, just the majority of them. If you attempt to imply that the majority of citizens of our nation don't want that, well, I would ask that you produce some evidence to support that, because that certainly isn't what I was taught about this country or its people.
 
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Epic fail dude. Just sayin'.
Do you get some sort of satisfaction continually embarassing yourself in your desired method of debate? It is like some sort of fetish?
Don't let me stand in your way.
Carry on.
:roll:
If you cannot add anything worthwile to the conversation, don't bother to post.
 
Failed at what, exactly? Complying with an impossible request?
You SHOULD know that it is perfectly possible to determine what someone means in his writings - specifically, the meaning of a word or phrase in a given writing - by comparing and contrasting his other works of the kind.
:shrug:
 
1. Of course the wealth belongs to the estate. But since the former owner of that estate is dead, the question concerning who owns it now remains to be resolved.
Your argument puts forth the position that simply because the owner is dead, his wealth is legitinately up for grabs by anyone and everyone.
There's no support for this. Estates exist for a reason, one of which is to negate that very idea.
2. I suppose I should have used "responsible" or "careful" or "safe."
All equally subjective, all equally meaningless. Not liking the way someone might spend inherited money is not an argument for reducing said inheritance and giving to people that are "more worthy."
3. It's not the government, I am talking about here. It is the citizens of that government. And it is not necessary that each individual should desire to see to it that the American Dream remains a real possibility for all children of this nation, just the majority of them.
How, exacty, do you suppose that the people, not the government, will preserve/promote/provide the American Dream by going after the estates of the wealthy?
 
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How, exacty, do you suppose that the people, not the government, will preserve/promote/provide the American Dream by going after the estates of the wealthy?

By insisting that the US Congress pass legislation for it. That is how the people will do it. The government is, after all, controlled by the people. Right now, government may not have legislated part of it's purpose to be such a thing, but really it's only a matter of getting it passed, and then it can be.
 
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By insisting that the US Congress pass legislation for it
This brings us back to...
3: Government does not exist to guarantee [that] the American Dream continues to be something available to ALL the children of this great nation. As such, you proceed from a false premise.

You asked for reasoned arguments to counter your Hogwash - you now have them.
:mrgreen:
 
:roll:
If you cannot add anything worthwile to the conversation, don't bother to post.

Doesn't seem to stop you from posting. I got the feeling I have been posting here since you were in diapers so don't be barking your BS orders at me.
 
Doesn't seem to stop you from posting. I got the feeling I have been posting here since you were in diapers so don't be barking your BS orders at me.
Thank you for making it clear that I need not consider you in any serious manner.
 
This brings us back to...
3: Government does not exist to guarantee [that] the American Dream continues to be something available to ALL the children of this great nation. As such, you proceed from a false premise.

You asked for reasoned arguments to counter your Hogwash - you now have them.
:mrgreen:

You keep using that word "hogwash" as if you think it is going to needle me somehow. It just makes you seem uncreative.

Government does not have to exist for that purpose. I don't recall ever saying that it did. What I said was that the american people have created a reachable mythology about the "Promise of the American Dream." It no longer needs to be merely a dream. We could make it real. I believe it is a strong point, whether you do or not is irrelevant. It will be up to the people, and I believe there are a lot more of us who would like to see it happen, than you do, obviously. Only time will tell.
 
You keep using that word "hogwash" as if you think it is going to needle me somehow. It just makes you seem uncreative.
None of that changes the fact that it is hogwash, as evidenced by the reasoned argument that you asked for.
:shrug:
 
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