School dress code and free speech.

There is a thread in breaking news about an 8th grader suspended for wearing a t-shirt to school which was deemed as a violation to what can reasonably be considered a vague dress code. This is not about that, but rather in general about dress coded in schools, or more precisely in public schools.
There were arguments made that freedom of expression should trump dress codes. If that is so, should it be totally without restrictions or with some restrictions.
Let me just throw this out there: In NYC's Tine Square, there are "performers" who wear nothing but body paint and under First Amendment rules they are free do do so, although now NYC is trying to implement some regulation. So what would happen if someone showed up to school with such an expression?

prometeus said:

There is a thread in breaking news about an 8th grader suspended for wearing a t-shirt to school which was deemed as a violation to what can reasonably be considered a vague dress code. This is not about that, but rather in general about dress coded in schools, or more precisely in public schools.
There were arguments made that freedom of expression should trump dress codes. If that is so, should it be totally without restrictions or with some restrictions.
Let me just throw this out there: In NYC's Tine Square, there are "performers" who wear nothing but body paint and under First Amendment rules they are free do do so, although now NYC is trying to implement some regulation. So what would happen if someone showed up to school with such an expression?

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If it was one of those performers I would probbly want to see it in person.

prometeus said:

There is a thread in breaking news about an 8th grader suspended for wearing a t-shirt to school which was deemed as a violation to what can reasonably be considered a vague dress code. This is not about that, but rather in general about dress coded in schools, or more precisely in public schools.
There were arguments made that freedom of expression should trump dress codes. If that is so, should it be totally without restrictions or with some restrictions.
Let me just throw this out there: In NYC's Tine Square, there are "performers" who wear nothing but body paint and under First Amendment rules they are free do do so, although now NYC is trying to implement some regulation. So what would happen if someone showed up to school with such an expression?

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Children are a "protected class" in the USA. That means their rights can be restricted for their own protection, and the protection of other children.

Showing up nude in a grade school, even in "body paint," would subject the student(s) to discipline. If they were adults, it might lead to criminal charges. That answers the question you posed.

Captain Adverse said:

Children are a "protected class" in the USA. That means their rights can be restricted for their own protection, and the protection of other children.

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And that is a good thing.

Showing up nude in a grade school, even in "body paint," would subject the student(s) to discipline. That answers the question you posed.

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True, but then again I did not have grade school in mind. How about the graduating seniors in high school? Come to think of it, some of them legally are no longer kids.

prometeus said:

And that is a good thing.

True, but then again I did not have grade school in mind. How about the graduating seniors in high school? Come to think of it, some of them legally are no longer kids.

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What part of "If they were adults, it might lead to criminal charges" did you fail to grasp?

Just because they are old enough to exercise their rights while remaining "students," that fact does not protect them from being held accountable for actions affecting the members of that protected class.

Captain Adverse said:

What part of "If they were adults, it might lead to criminal charges" did you fail to grasp?

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Apologies, I have failed to see it and can not explain why. For some reason I concentrated of the grade school part.
Why do you believe that criminal charges would be in order?

prometeus said:

Apologies, I have failed to see it and can not explain why. For some reason I concentrated of the grade school part.
Why do you believe that criminal charges would be in order?

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Sorry, I had added something to my post that did not make your quoted response.

In any case, grade school is primary, middle, and secondary, i.e. grades 1 - 12. Most students who reach age 18 during this period are seniors but most of the students they go to school with remain legally minors.

Simply imagine what a non-student adult who acted out on school property would face if they took such actions, and apply the same response to 18 year-olds. That's why.

prometeus said:

There is a thread in breaking news about an 8th grader suspended for wearing a t-shirt to school which was deemed as a violation to what can reasonably be considered a vague dress code. This is not about that, but rather in general about dress coded in schools, or more precisely in public schools.
There were arguments made that freedom of expression should trump dress codes. If that is so, should it be totally without restrictions or with some restrictions.
Let me just throw this out there: In NYC's Tine Square, there are "performers" who wear nothing but body paint and under First Amendment rules they are free do do so, although now NYC is trying to implement some regulation. So what would happen if someone showed up to school with such an expression?

Click to expand...

Dress codes and more specifically, school uniforms, are a great idea and should be happening in every school in the US.

prometeus said:

There is a thread in breaking news about an 8th grader suspended for wearing a t-shirt to school which was deemed as a violation to what can reasonably be considered a vague dress code. This is not about that, but rather in general about dress coded in schools, or more precisely in public schools.
There were arguments made that freedom of expression should trump dress codes. If that is so, should it be totally without restrictions or with some restrictions.
Let me just throw this out there: In NYC's Tine Square, there are "performers" who wear nothing but body paint and under First Amendment rules they are free do do so, although now NYC is trying to implement some regulation. So what would happen if someone showed up to school with such an expression?

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It's 2015. It's ok to dress how you want. If it offends someone, THAT is the issue. You didn't post a link but sided with someone who dress with the "freedom of expression". When thinking about issues, you have to think worst case scenario always...

Freedom of Expression could have a child wearing; "Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. "(Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Freedom of Expression? Freedom of Religion? Or 3rd world Country Religious attitude?

Bodhisattva said:

Dress codes and more specifically, school uniforms, are a great idea and should be happening in every school in the US.

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School uniforms have been shown to benefit the poor the most.

prometeus said:

There is a thread in breaking news about an 8th grader suspended for wearing a t-shirt to school which was deemed as a violation to what can reasonably be considered a vague dress code. This is not about that, but rather in general about dress coded in schools, or more precisely in public schools.
There were arguments made that freedom of expression should trump dress codes. If that is so, should it be totally without restrictions or with some restrictions.
Let me just throw this out there: In NYC's Tine Square, there are "performers" who wear nothing but body paint and under First Amendment rules they are free do do so, although now NYC is trying to implement some regulation. So what would happen if someone showed up to school with such an expression?

Click to expand...

If the school has a dress code, and specifically bans certain clothing, that circumvents the 1A.

If you agree to send your kid to the school, and agree to the conditions, there is no cause to whine about them.

If there is a dress code, it should be followed, and if the code needs to be amended, parents should lobby for change.

I attended both public and private schools, and so did my kids. For a variety of reasons, I think uniforms are great.

nota bene said:

If there is a dress code, it should be followed, and if the code needs to be amended, parents should lobby for change.

I attended both public and private schools, and so did my kids. For a variety of reasons, I think uniforms are great.

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My son got the following shirt, but it ain't gonna fly on 'grub day' at Catholic school!

I dared him to wear it - he refused.

It's a great shirt anyhow.

American said:

School uniforms have been shown to benefit the poor the most.

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It benefits everybody but the poor the most due to poorer socialization skills but in a school with mixed socio-economic levels that eventually benefits everybody.

SMTA said:

My son got the following shirt, but it ain't gonna fly on 'grub day' at Catholic school!

I dared him to wear it - he refused.

It's a great shirt anyhow.

View attachment 67191446

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I don't give a mouse donkey?

I hear you spoke against a certain rule when it comes a dress code and leaned on the first amendment. What about nudity? Yeah, what about nudity? facepalm

Bodhisattva said:

Dress codes and more specifically, school uniforms, are a great idea and should be happening in every school in the US.

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Why?

Having attended schools both with and without dress codes, more specifically, school uniforms I think school uniforms are stupid and failed to see any real benefit from having been forced to wear one.

soot said:

Why?

Having attended schools both with and without dress codes, more specifically, school uniforms I think school uniforms are stupid and failed to see any real benefit from having been forced to wear one.

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It benefits everybody but the poor the most due to poorer socialization skills but in a school with mixed socio-economic levels that eventually benefits everybody.

Teachers and parents see the benefits better than the student(s) that resent wearing them...

soot said:

Why?

Having attended schools both with and without dress codes, more specifically, school uniforms I think school uniforms are stupid and failed to see any real benefit from having been forced to wear one.

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Uniforms simplify.

Bodhisattva said:

It benefits everybody but the poor the most due to poorer socialization skills but in a school with mixed socio-economic levels that eventually benefits everybody.

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Actually it benefits them economically because school uniforms turn out to be cheaper than buying the latest styles to try and keep up.

Bodhisattva said:

It benefits everybody but the poor the most due to poorer socialization skills but in a school with mixed socio-economic levels that eventually benefits everybody.

Teachers and parents see the benefits better than the student(s) that resent wearing them...

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I wasn't asking you to repeat yourself.

I understand your claim, I'd like you to factually substantiate it.

nota bene said:

Uniforms simplify.

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So we want to encourage our kids to be simpletons?

American said:

Actually it benefits them economically because school uniforms turn out to be cheaper than buying the latest styles to try and keep up.

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It does that as well as what I stated...

soot said:

I wasn't asking you to repeat yourself.

I understand your claim, I'd like you to factually substantiate it.

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I am not sure that studies have been done but as a teacher who has taught in schools with uniforms and without uniforms and after talking to teachers, parents and students that is the conclusion that has been reached by pretty much everybody that I have talked to about it...

Bodhisattva said:

I am not sure that studies have been done but as a teacher who has taught in schools with uniforms and without uniforms and after talking to teachers, parents and students that is the conclusion that has been reached by pretty much everybody that I have talked to about it...

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Okay.

Fair enough.

So, in your opinion, in what way did the introduction of uniforms improve things for the kids?

As to my perspective, I went to a public school (no uniforms) up through third grade.

I was left back in third grade due to a learning disability and was at that time transferred to a Catholic school (uniforms) for my second run at third grade.

Upon graduating from 8th grade I went back to public high school (again, no uniforms).

I didn't really dislike the uniforms at the time I was wearing one, in fact I actually kind of liked them because I was low income kid thrown in to a private school with a bunch of kids who came from money and it was one less thing to "compete" on, if that makes sense.

But when I went to public high school I ran in to a similar dynamic (being among the low income kids) but it really wasn't all that much of an issue.

I guess maybe in my own head I would have liked to have had some of the "designer" and "trendy label" stuff that many of the other kid's families could afford, but I never had any trouble fitting in for a lack of that stuff nor did the other kids make me feel "less than" for want of it.

I got more or less the same kind of grades in high school that I did in elementary/middle school so I didn't see an academic advantage to wearing a uniform.

I'm still in touch, via Facebook and yearly reunions, with the large majority of my graduating 8th grade class (some of whom went on to uniform-wearing private high schools and many who didn't) as well as a great many of my high school friends (some of whom had also attended uniform-wearing private elementary/middle schools and most of whom didn't) and in both respects we seem to be a real mixed bag.

That is to say, there is no clear correlation between uniform wearing and eventual "success" in later life by any reasonable metric.

Folks who went the whole way through without uniforms seem to have grown in to well adjusted, happy, financially successful adults at the same rate as those who went all the way through primary and secondary school in uniform.

I guess as someone who has actual living experience with uniformed schooling, as opposed to the view of an outsider (even a teacher) looking in and giving his perceptions of what he thinks the benefits of uniforming kids might be, I fail to see any real benefit from it.