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Is it "smug" to pronounce "chorizo," "croissant" and "latte" correctly?

Re: Is it "smug" to pronounce "chorizo," "croissant" and "latte" correctly?

It's only smug if you do it with the accent.

Your own accent, or the target language you are attempting to speak?
 
Re: Is it "smug" to pronounce "chorizo," "croissant" and "latte" correctly?

But croissant has no Anglicised pronounciation. How would you say it without sounding French?

Au contraire, mon frère. ;)
 
Re: Is it "smug" to pronounce "chorizo," "croissant" and "latte" correctly?

But croissant has no Anglicised pronounciation. How would you say it without sounding French?

Sure it does. Cross-ahnt. Half those letters are skipped in the French pronunciation. :lol:

But really, it's not a matter of avoiding it sounding French, or English, or whatever. It's just that it seems silly to say that it could ever be "wrong" to pronounce a fully adopted word using the phonetic rules of the language you're speaking. All adopted words get tailored to their adopted language to at least some extent.
 
Re: Is it "smug" to pronounce "chorizo," "croissant" and "latte" correctly?

Why would an English-speaking child naturally pronounce something with the phonetic rules of some other language? How would they even know those rules, if they hadn't been taught? There are sounds in French that don't exist in English and that native English-speakers can't even easily say, unless they've learned.

So, yeah, they do. Or at least lessons on those words they're expected to say using French phonetic rules. No English-speaking child would ever naturally intuit that.

So yes, this is very much a question of being taught, and generally, the children who get taught are upper class. See the point here?

Again, why is it ok to pronounce Portuguese words in an Anglicized way, but not French ones?

I didn't say this was okay; you stated this.

A child would learn how to pronounce any word, foreign or not, from his or her parents and community, and this would include foods, whose pronunciation is this thread's topic. "Guacamole," "jalapeño," "tortilla," "pico de gallo," and "chorizo" are ordinary foods.
 
Re: Is it "smug" to pronounce "chorizo," "croissant" and "latte" correctly?

Mumsnet is the home of smug. It's a kind of facebook for middle-class parenting advice which somehow got tangled in with politics a few years back, and briefly enjoyed an elevated status. The DM multiplies the smug self-regard by a factor of quinoa (keenwa)
 
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Re: Is it "smug" to pronounce "chorizo," "croissant" and "latte" correctly?

Its bothersome to me that Brits pronounce tomato as to-mah-to, when it should be pronounced properly as to-may-to.

Pisses me off that Texans pronounce pecans 'pee-cohns'.
 
Re: Is it "smug" to pronounce "chorizo," "croissant" and "latte" correctly?

I didn't say this was okay; you stated this.

A child would learn how to pronounce any word, foreign or not, from his or her parents and community, and this would include foods, whose pronunciation is this thread's topic. "Guacamole," "jalapeño," "tortilla," "pico de gallo," and "chorizo" are ordinary foods.

Well, yes, you did. You said pronouncing it the French way was "correct." Well, why? This is English, and these are loan words adopted into our language. You almost certainly pronounce "Portugal" like an English-speaker, not a Portuguese speaker. So why is that ok, but saying French loan words as English would dictate is "wrong"?

Yes, they would learn from their community. That's why there tends to be a socioeconomic divide between English speakers who learn French loan words with Anglicized pronunciation, and those who don't. Not all children learn that. In fact, most don't. As to all of those Spanish words, most native English speakers I know pronounce those as English dictates as well. I do, even though I actually did learn Spanish.

The vast majority of English-speakers who learn loan words from any language with English pronunciation are just as correct as those who learn them otherwise. It can't possibly be wrong to be phonetically consistent, especially with words that are entrenched into their new language. If anything, it's the French pronunciations that are linguistically questionable. The only reason anyone ever does that is in the hopes of impressing people, not because it makes any linguistic sense.

But of course, communication -- including of a want to impress -- is the point of language. So I'm disinclined to say it's "wrong" to pronounce them that way. But it certainly isn't more "correct."
 
Re: Is it "smug" to pronounce "chorizo," "croissant" and "latte" correctly?

I hope not. I grew up in Texas and lived in Mexico for two years. I would have to make a conscious effort to not pronounce the Spanish words correctly.

And I thought there was only one way to pronounce latte so now I have no idea if I am doing it right or not.

Same with me and French. I was at a French speaking school for three years in Brussels so I could at one time pronounce French words with a pitch perfect Belgian accent.

Place names are difficult though. To say Paree, Roma or Bruxelles when speaking English is silly, though Madreed seems OK to me. But do I really need to call Livorno by its old English name Leghorn? And for some reason it irritates me sightly to hear Malmö called Malmo.
 
Re: Is it "smug" to pronounce "chorizo," "croissant" and "latte" correctly?

Actually it's, "hala-PEN-yo". ;)

People find the stupidest things to get upset over. It is proper and correct to pronounce words correctly.

It's funny when it's translated phonetically (kind of) into print. I've seen a couple people write, "Wallah!" for 'voila!'
 
Re: Is it "smug" to pronounce "chorizo," "croissant" and "latte" correctly?

It's funny when it's translated phonetically (kind of) into print. I've seen a couple people write, "Wallah!" for 'voila!'

Lol, yep.

Being the jokester that I am in RL, I purposefully pronounce that one phonetically as it's spelled correctly LOL. :mrgreen:
 
Re: Is it "smug" to pronounce "chorizo," "croissant" and "latte" correctly?

Pisses me off that Texans pronounce pecans 'pee-cohns'.

Pisses me off that people from up north pronounce "pekhans" as "pee-cans." :lol:
 
Re: Is it "smug" to pronounce "chorizo," "croissant" and "latte" correctly?

The Daily Mail reports on a Mumsnet argument on whether pronouncing foreign foods' names correctly is "pretentious." I don't think so. Is "latte" really that hard? Woman provokes Mumsnet debate over chorizo pronunciation | Daily Mail Online

But it's "wok-a-mole-eh" and "hala-pain-yo." :mrgreen:

It is never ever smug to use correct pronunciations. I can excuse someone when they are ignorant to the correct way to say things, in AZ you wouldn't the many variations of "saguaro", "quesadilla" "papago" or many other words that we use every day here.
 
Re: Is it "smug" to pronounce "chorizo," "croissant" and "latte" correctly?

That is obviously an English-speaking person, pronouncing it incorrectly. Trust me, I grew up in a Spanish-speaking household. ;)

Here's some actual Spanish speaking people. :D https://forvo.com/word/jalapeño/

I don't understand why you aren't hearing what in English is the long "a" sound in the examples at your link. "E" is always, always pronounced as we pronounce long "a," hence my spelling of "pain" as opposed to "pen," which in English is another vowel sound entirely. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEcq85lyD5Q
 
Re: Is it "smug" to pronounce "chorizo," "croissant" and "latte" correctly?

Lol, yep.

Being the jokester that I am in RL, I purposefully pronounce that one phonetically as it's spelled correctly LOL. :mrgreen:

Our ears can pick out really small nuances. I've worked several times with Americans and we always end up imitating each other's accents (do I really pronounce 'about' as 'aboot'? Nah, you pronounce it 'abaowt').
I worked with a guy from Texas once. Good guy, good ironworker, but I could have a nap waiting for him to finish his sentence. Way he said 'damn' it had three syllables to my ear.
 
Re: Is it "smug" to pronounce "chorizo," "croissant" and "latte" correctly?

The Daily Mail reports on a Mumsnet argument on whether pronouncing foreign foods' names correctly is "pretentious." I don't think so. Is "latte" really that hard? Woman provokes Mumsnet debate over chorizo pronunciation | Daily Mail Online

But it's "wok-a-mole-eh" and "hala-pain-yo." :mrgreen:

Nah. But as long as we're talking coffee places, I think it's pretentious of coffee places to use size names such as Grande, Venti... etc. Damn it just give me a large. :2razz:
 
Re: Is it "smug" to pronounce "chorizo," "croissant" and "latte" correctly?

I'd ask that at least try to speak names correctly. Like Lupe is not Loopey and Jose is not Josie. :lol:

Otherwise for foods, whatever.
 
Re: Is it "smug" to pronounce "chorizo," "croissant" and "latte" correctly?

Pisses me off that people from up north pronounce "pekhans" as "pee-cans." :lol:

I even read somewhere a Texan say, "We don't have pee-cans in Texas, we have toilets."
Michener's excellent book on the subject, I think. The subject being Texas, not pecans.
 
Re: Is it "smug" to pronounce "chorizo," "croissant" and "latte" correctly?

I even read somewhere a Texan say, "We don't have pee-cans in Texas, we have toilets."
Michener's excellent book on the subject, I think. The subject being Texas, not pecans.

I've never heard that one!
 
Re: Is it "smug" to pronounce "chorizo," "croissant" and "latte" correctly?

I don't understand why you aren't hearing what in English is the long "a" sound in the examples at your link. "E" is always, always pronounced as we pronounce long "a," hence my spelling of "pain" as opposed to "pen," which in English is another vowel sound entirely. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEcq85lyD5Q

Sorry, "pain" is simply not how it's pronounced. Though to be fair, "pen" is not entirely correct either. The p is pronounced in more of a muted way. But there definitely is no long a sound in the word jalapeno. Yes I know, no tilde, not going to dig up a special keyboard just to write the word jalapeno LOL.
 
Re: Is it "smug" to pronounce "chorizo," "croissant" and "latte" correctly?

I'd ask that at least try to speak names correctly. Like Lupe is not Loopey and Jose is not Josie. :lol:

Otherwise for foods, whatever.

When she was a kid, one of my little sisters really did think that "The Star-Spangled Banner" began with, "Jose, can you see?" (I love mondegreens.)
 
Re: Is it "smug" to pronounce "chorizo," "croissant" and "latte" correctly?

I've never heard that one!

James Michener, 'Texas'. Should be required reading in Texas schools. Good read. He starts his subjects right at the distant beginnings.
 
Re: Is it "smug" to pronounce "chorizo," "croissant" and "latte" correctly?

Our ears can pick out really small nuances. I've worked several times with Americans and we always end up imitating each other's accents (do I really pronounce 'about' as 'aboot'? Nah, you pronounce it 'abaowt').
I worked with a guy from Texas once. Good guy, good ironworker, but I could have a nap waiting for him to finish his sentence. Way he said 'damn' it had three syllables to my ear.

LOL, sounds like my wife. She's the master of making a short story long. :D
 
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