Captain's Challenge.....

Alright folks, I'm going to go out on a limb here and challenge you all to do something. I am going to ask you to restrain yourselves and not act out on this thread.

I am going to be candid, and the heck with the repercussions. There is a major problem going on at DP. And all of us, or nearly all of us are involved. Me, IT, jallman, Jeff, bhkad, 1069, NP, DD, Vader, the Reverend, Hobo, and many others. I am not mentioning names because you are the biggest offenders; the names I mentioned are the ones that come to mind. Notice who's name was first. The partisan attacking on this forum has gotten out of control. I couldn't care less whether you are for Obama or McCain; BOTH SIDES ARE EQUALLY AT FAULT. You are not saving the world by pointing out irrelevant or minuscule issues; you are acting like a partisan hack, and a baiting fool. You are not doing what's right for America by, blindly, attaching yourself to an ideology; you are acting like an ignorant, closed-minded jerk.

95%+ of the threads in the Election Forum and other forums about Obama and McCain are nothing but A TOTAL WASTE OF BANDWIDTH and if I wouldn't get accused of censorship, I'D FLUSH THEM ALL. One reason I came to DP was because of all the political forums I checked out, the most intelligent people were here. Click any thread in the Election Forum, and my perception is immediately proven wrong.

Extreme partisanship, flat out lying, refusing to listen, bullying, clinging to alarmist, obtuse beliefs even when they have been proven wrong, and just acting ignorant, nasty, and baiting at every turn. This behavior is permeating the forum. And it needs to stop. However, beyond warning/infracting/banning the lot of you, and since that would take me a whole lot of time I do not have, what else can be done? Well...

A couple of weeks ago, another DP member gave me some feedback that I am grateful for. My posting was getting more aggressive, and I was falling into the same trap as many, many others on this forum. I am about the most patient, even keel person on this planet, so if it affecting me, it must be affecting everyone, and y'alls behavior shows me I'm right. So, I have two challenges for you:

1) What do you think is going on at DP? I cannot guarantee that there will be much if any moderator participation, here, but I can guarantee that your comments will be read, if posted without some of the problems I have mentioned above.

2) Think outside your own little box. Take responsibility for being part of the problem with your partisan hackery, your alarmism, your blind followings. Look at the other point of view without blinders on; it doesn't mean you accept it, just means you look at it. TAKE FEEDBACK WHEN IT IS POINTED OUT WHAT YOU ARE DOING. Be part of the solution. You don't think that DP is analogous to what happens in the US? Think again. It is. And it is extremely apparent.

I have no desire to entertain someone's debate over whether or not they are part of the problem and to what degree. You are. That simple. You want to debate that? You can do so by saying the following: I want to debate how much I am part of the problem, and by doing so, I have decided to continue to be part of the problem. That is the only comment on that issue I will address.

Be part of the solution.

I am certain that there will be some members, perhaps some in the "upper echelon" of DP, that will be very displeased with this post. Oh, well. I can accept the reactions. I cannot accept this to continue without it being addressed.

OK, The ball is now in all of your courts. Let's see what you do.

Re: Half-brother Confirms Barack Grew up a Muslim

We should do a poll and establish the top offenders. These posters should then be forced to engage in reverse debate upstairs for a week. They can only make posts that are debating for the other side, or completely neutral with complete objectivity towards either party, Sutherland style. Any violation results in total basement humiliation and degradation, no holds barred.

Re: Half-brother Confirms Barack Grew up a Muslim

I really have no idea why it got so messy. I think it's hyper reaction for the most part. Extremism begets extremism. The pendulum gets shoved one way with much force and comes right back the other direction unchecked.

But know this, as long as people are upstairs making ignorant or deliberately misleading statements in order to advance their position (and backing them with bullshit evidence and flawed logic) I'll be there to point that out. Deconstructing that stuff is not only fun, it's necessary. I invite anyone to do the same to me if I cross that line.

That said, it goes without saying that I have been engaged in particularly nasty affairs with two posters here and at times my conduct has gotten beyond tasteful or constructive. So I'll take my spanking on this.

Re: Half-brother Confirms Barack Grew up a Muslim

As a note to echo CC's concerns (And agree with him, everyones guilty of it. Even some of the best posters and more even keel on this site get swept up as the flood hits, its infectious).

This isn't just about some moderators being annoyed, or a few loan reports. We've had new members flat out say they were hesitant to even join the forum because the majority of it just seemed to be non-stop partisan propoganda and no actual debate. We've had long time posters here repeatedly pointing out that all the top seems like now in many forums if an aggressive, sarcastic, non-stop back and forth by people on both sides being completely hyperpartisan.

Its an election season, and partisanship typically becomes stronger during these times, but its getting to the point of absurdity and its damaging the forum. DP is meant to be a place where people, of all parts of the political spectrum, can gather together to discuss and debate issues civily and intelligently. Its not meant to be a partisan warfield where we make it our duties to sarcastically run down or reply to everyone we disagree with, or flood the forum with every non-issue event of the day. Its not a place to go to just say "I'm write, 100%, there's nothing that can sway me from it, and as such I'm going to yell it over and over again". That's not debating, that's just getting up on a soap box and exploiting the fact that the good people of this forum are here to read posts hoping ot find actual DEBATE, not to just be preached at.

When it was shown that its starting to affect people even thinking to join our forum, that's when it really hit how big of a problem this is.

Re: Half-brother Confirms Barack Grew up a Muslim

am going to be candid, and **** the repercussions. There is a major problem going on at DP. And all of us, or nearly all of us are involved. Me, IT, jallman, Jeff, bhkad, 1069, NP, DD, Vader, the Reverend, Hobo, and many others

Click to expand...

What have I done?
I've done my very best to contribute only relevant input and avoid hyperpartisanship.
I already suspect that my candidate's a shoo-in. And even if he weren't, I like McCain a lot better than I like the current fundy-ocracy. So either way, things get better.
I'm not the least bit hostile.

Re: Half-brother Confirms Barack Grew up a Muslim

I am not sure that anything should be done about the rancor here, other than to reinforce the rules about personal attacks, etc.

This IS politics, after all, and this year, as much as any other year, people have very, very strong feelings, which of course, are going to be reflected in their postings. This is not unlike 2004, in which Kerry was swiftboated, or 2000, when McCain was destroyed by the "black baby" allegations. People in this forum, whether Democratic or Republican, are going to have feelings too, and they are going to use what is available to express those feelings. Don't blame the members here. Blame the talking heads who tell the public these things - The talking heads, whose maturity is that of not a baby, but a fetus - The talking heads, whose hatred of anyone and anything is just as anti American as hippies spitting on troops coming home from Vietnam, or KKK'ers lynching black people who wanted to vote. The problem here is not really the members, but the material that is available to them.

As for the members themselves?

1) bhkad - Sure, he hates Obama, that is plain to see, so he pushes his view as hard as he can. But he is not really such a bad guy. I mean, today, he posted in the thread about the Democrat getting shot that we are Americans first. THAT was a great statement.

2) Mc.No.Spin - He and I have a long history of bashing each other,I found out that he has one hell of a good sense of humor. He has accepted practical jokes and laughed at himself. He has pull a few jokes on others too. So Mc.No.Spin realizes that political forums are primarily for having fun. Bingo - I think he is right.

3) Navy Pride - He and I don't see eye to eye on anything, but he has said some good things about me, and I was the first to defend him when he was going to leave. He and I both see good in each other, despite him calling me his "liberal friend" all the time, and me telling him that he had an anchor dropped in his head. LOL.

I can't blame the three that I mentioned for the problems that supposed to exist in this forum, but the way I see it. There are no real problems here - Not like compared to other boards. I am a member in other forums, and frankly, some of them are quite sick. One forum has a member called "Billy Bob", who has an emoticon he uses that depicts a stereotypical black man being shot in the head with a pistol. Compared to that, this board is quite tame.

If you want to moderate this board more, I would be against that. The reason? The best moderation on any board is free and open discussion. If someone gets out of line in his or her arguments, he or she will be slapped down in no time. If I hadn't turned bhkad into road kill in this thread, somebody else would have. And it is the same with anybody else in the forum. Most of us have done it, and most of us have been embarrassed by being slapped down hard. I am not immune either. Ask RightInNYC about how he slapped me down a couple of times. My ass still smarts from one of his beatings. LOL.

So, in the end, I wouldn't worry about it. Moderators, of course, should intervene when personal attacks are being made, but other than that, I would say let it continue as it has. Just like in the real world, nothing can be better for this forum than the free marketplace of information.

I hope this response has been helpful, and I beg of you - Please do not try and turn this forum into an ant farm. It would be most detrimental thing you could ever do here.

Finally, lets all have fun.

Re: Half-brother Confirms Barack Grew up a Muslim

I know, for myself, I get bored when the topics turn to minutiae that have no relevance. Then it's just fun to pick fights with people to keep myself entertained. And there are certain people that I know will fight with me if I pick a fight with them.

On a more serious note though, I do notice that people become a little more obtuse during the election season. Suddenly, the forum schisms into teams and the atmosphere becomes one of team cheering instead of discussion. I don't know if any of you have ever been to a Raiders home game, but it takes on that atmosphere to a T.

Re: Half-brother Confirms Barack Grew up a Muslim

Yes, I am part of the problem. I can attribute my partisanship to a couple factors.

1) I have succumbed to the two party system. I believe in third parties and do want them to flourish. But they aren't viable at this point and would probably not be too effective.

2) Unfortunately, hyperpartisanship is what works in America. It's not intellectual. It's not honest. It's effective. It's sad. But I have had the attitude that I will be damned if I let the practices of the last 8 years continue. That's my partisan perspective. I think that this election it's worse than usual.

As CC has pointed out, this is an American issue. It's not unique to DP. America, being an instant gratification society, makes us result oriented. "Whatever it takes" attitudes permeate our society as we continue the live by the ends justifying the means.

It's silly season as there isn't much new info coming out about the candidates right now. This is on top of the longest Presidential campaing in history. I think many are suffering campaign fatigue. Many people have chosen sides and are addressing every single attack.

I wish intellectuality honesty was what won elections. Sadly it doesn't provide desired results. It's all about creating a perception of your opponent regardless of what the truth may be.

Once the baiting has started, it snowballs. People aren't backing down. A lot of people look to the last two Presidential elections have left many of us believing those tactics work. At least when they aren't addressed. The last two elections have shown us what happens when the intellectual ignores baseless attacks. They look weak. You can't shake the "weak" label without putting up a fight.

I will clean up my act. I would also like the mods to step up and lead discussions. I know people get busy. I also know that opportunities are missed by inaction by some mods. They don't have to moderate. It's an interesting phenomenon that they stop posting after being a mod for a year or so. I would like to see mods posting as members more. That might help clean things up.

I don't think we need to identify worst offenders and finger point. What CC has requested is that we look at ourselves and see how we each can fix these problems and make this place better. Let's take some personal responsibility for our actions.

Re: Half-brother Confirms Barack Grew up a Muslim

I do have a quick question, to BOTH sides...

Do you think posting on Debate Politics about many of the things found in the election forums, and the discussions that go on there, are actually going to sway anybody?

Do you believe the people reading those threads are seeing most of those responses and posts everyone makes and going "Hmm, that is going to make me vote for X" or "Vote against Y"?

IT brings up the point that he's bought into the fact that this is how elections are won in America, and he doesn't want another 8 years of these policies. And you know, I can understand that even if I don't agree....

But what does that have to do with DP? Yes, that thing may be true in the real world or the masses...but what do you think sways people more often here, at this site? If you say "actual legitimate debate" over "spamming of non-issues, constant insults and joking, and pure partisan talking points"....then why are you doing the latter if your purpose is impacting in even a small way the election coming up?

I'm actually a prime example. Not an example of someone who does a great job of doign the actual legitimate debate to pull people to a side...but a person, on this forum, that gravitated to actual legitimate debate over partisan/over the top non-issue talking points and chose a candidates.

For a long time in the republicn primary I was undecided. I waffled primarily between Romney and Huckabee for the most part. The outside fringers like Hunter and Tancrado didn't really interest me, and Ron Paul seemed a loon to me. Then suddenly an odd thing started happening.

1) The hyper partisan republicans started spamming smears about non-issues for Ron Paul, or started speaking about him in over the top rhetorical hyperbole

2) A number of intelligent Ron Paul supporters, honestly wanting to debate, tried to present his ideas.

Now, while I didn't agree with everything Ron Paul thinks...espicially on Iraq....I was began to be swayed to some of his issues. Despite my earlier thoughts on Paul, these reasoned arguments won me over enough to go, research him, and found that I liked him. I ended up casting my ballot in virginia for Paul, despite knowing he'd likely not win, because it felt like he was the right candidate.

Its a wonderful thing if part of your goal on this forum is to perhaps win others to your side. Hell, that's the purpose of debate sometimes. But, as was said multiple times during the recent "McCain Ad's" threads...what works with the masses of the American Public doesn't necessarily apply to people actively involved and researching politics. Most anyone on this forum knows what hte immediete new political issues of today are...I ran into a woman last week that said she was voting for Hillary for President, having no clue she was out.

Want to win people to your side...rise above the partisan stuff and try for some actual factual civil debate. Don't just say "Obama's an empty suit", explain exactly why and how and why those things are bad. Don't just say "Obama's not an empty suit", explain his positions and why they're feasible and good.

Re: Half-brother Confirms Barack Grew up a Muslim

Zyphlin said:

I do have a quick question, to BOTH sides...

Do you think posting on Debate Politics about many of the things found in the election forums, and the discussions that go on there, are actually going to sway anybody?

Do you believe the people reading those threads are seeing most of those responses and posts everyone makes and going "Hmm, that is going to make me vote for X" or "Vote against Y"?

IT brings up the point that he's bought into the fact that this is how elections are won in America, and he doesn't want another 8 years of these policies. And you know, I can understand that even if I don't agree....

But what does that have to do with DP? Yes, that thing may be true in the real world or the masses...but what do you think sways people more often here, at this site? If you say "actual legitimate debate" over "spamming of non-issues, constant insults and joking, and pure partisan talking points"....then why are you doing the latter if your purpose is impacting in even a small way the election coming up?

I'm actually a prime example. Not an example of someone who does a great job of doign the actual legitimate debate to pull people to a side...but a person, on this forum, that gravitated to actual legitimate debate over partisan/over the top non-issue talking points and chose a candidates.

For a long time in the republicn primary I was undecided. I waffled primarily between Romney and Huckabee for the most part. The outside fringers like Hunter and Tancrado didn't really interest me, and Ron Paul seemed a loon to me. Then suddenly an odd thing started happening.

1) The hyper partisan republicans started spamming smears about non-issues for Ron Paul, or started speaking about him in over the top rhetorical hyperbole

2) A number of intelligent Ron Paul supporters, honestly wanting to debate, tried to present his ideas.

Now, while I didn't agree with everything Ron Paul thinks...espicially on Iraq....I was began to be swayed to some of his issues. Despite my earlier thoughts on Paul, these reasoned arguments won me over enough to go, research him, and found that I liked him. I ended up casting my ballot in virginia for Paul, despite knowing he'd likely not win, because it felt like he was the right candidate.

Its a wonderful thing if part of your goal on this forum is to perhaps win others to your side. Hell, that's the purpose of debate sometimes. But, as was said multiple times during the recent "McCain Ad's" threads...what works with the masses of the American Public doesn't necessarily apply to people actively involved and researching politics. Most anyone on this forum knows what hte immediete new political issues of today are...I ran into a woman last week that said she was voting for Hillary for President, having no clue she was out.

Want to win people to your side...rise above the partisan stuff and try for some actual factual civil debate. Don't just say "Obama's an empty suit", explain exactly why and how and why those things are bad. Don't just say "Obama's not an empty suit", explain his positions and why they're feasible and good.

Click to expand...

You know, while you moderators can gig people for infractions, I believe another function you could perform would be to enter into discussions and ask questions, or otherwise make statements that would help stimulate discussion, rather than back and forth bashing.

You have a mod box at your disposal, which you use to issue warnings. Why not have a another box? Instead of a white background, it could have a light blue (or some other color) background. You could use this box not to issue warnings, but to ask questions, or to ask members who post "Obama is an empty suit", for instance, to expand on the statement, and explain specifics as to why he feels that way. Then you would be truly moderating things, just as a moderator at a public debate does. Not sure how much extra work that would entail, but it could be done. I believe that something of this nature would be very beneficial to the forum at large. You guys run the board, and adding another function to your job duties that helps stimulate discussion would be great, IMHO.

Re: Half-brother Confirms Barack Grew up a Muslim

Zyphlin said:

1) The hyper partisan republicans started spamming smears about non-issues for Ron Paul, or started speaking about him in over the top rhetorical hyperbole

Click to expand...

This I found during the previous election was one of the major reasons many people voted for Kerry. Few of us actually liked that piece of **** but posters like Navy and other hyper-partisans were so alienating, so hateful and so ridiculous that mere association with them through voting for the same candidate was repulsive.

While a great many people have already made up their minds on the issues and many have their brains set to exclude all non-compliant information to the point of insanity (our resident creationist for example), some people can be swayed with reason.

However, you cannot reason with the unreasonable. I share Captain Courtesy's attitude about the stupidity, partianism and general crap that parts of this forum have become.

Re: Half-brother Confirms Barack Grew up a Muslim

Pogo: We Have Met the Enemy and He Is Us.

Walt Kelly

Re: Half-brother Confirms Barack Grew up a Muslim

Zyphlin said:

I do have a quick question, to BOTH sides...

Do you think posting on Debate Politics about many of the things found in the election forums, and the discussions that go on there, are actually going to sway anybody?

Click to expand...

My wife told me that a co-worker told her she wasn't voting for Obama because he's in a cult. We may not influence members that post, but those that read and lurk it's hard to say what their status is. With 13% of people thinking Obama is a Muslim, I would say that some crap is sticking.

Zyphlin said:

Do you believe the people reading those threads are seeing most of those responses and posts everyone makes and going "Hmm, that is going to make me vote for X" or "Vote against Y"?

Click to expand...

The majority, no. But less than a 1,000 Floridians could have changed history forever.

Zyphlin said:

IT brings up the point that he's bought into the fact that this is how elections are won in America, and he doesn't want another 8 years of these policies. And you know, I can understand that even if I don't agree....

Click to expand...

You know, when danarhea left, I felt a need to put up anti-McCain threads to fill the void. Maybe I view it as a necessary "evil". Land mines are terrible things, but they are necessary. I understand that you disagree. I wish America would agree with you. I really do.

Zyphlin said:

But what does that have to do with DP? Yes, that thing may be true in the real world or the masses...but what do you think sways people more often here, at this site? If you say "actual legitimate debate" over "spamming of non-issues, constant insults and joking, and pure partisan talking points"....then why are you doing the latter if your purpose is impacting in even a small way the election coming up?

Click to expand...

I would say that jallman is right about the boredom. It is a major problem lately. DP is addictive. I suppose people will take lower quality fixes over no fixes.

Zyphlin said:

I'm actually a prime example. Not an example of someone who does a great job of doign the actual legitimate debate to pull people to a side...but a person, on this forum, that gravitated to actual legitimate debate over partisan/over the top non-issue talking points and chose a candidates.

For a long time in the republicn primary I was undecided. I waffled primarily between Romney and Huckabee for the most part. The outside fringers like Hunter and Tancrado didn't really interest me, and Ron Paul seemed a loon to me. Then suddenly an odd thing started happening.

1) The hyper partisan republicans started spamming smears about non-issues for Ron Paul, or started speaking about him in over the top rhetorical hyperbole

2) A number of intelligent Ron Paul supporters, honestly wanting to debate, tried to present his ideas.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I wonder what Paul's chances would have been if he were pro-war.

Zyphlin said:

Now, while I didn't agree with everything Ron Paul thinks...espicially on Iraq....I was began to be swayed to some of his issues. Despite my earlier thoughts on Paul, these reasoned arguments won me over enough to go, research him, and found that I liked him. I ended up casting my ballot in virginia for Paul, despite knowing he'd likely not win, because it felt like he was the right candidate.

Click to expand...

Paul has some good ideas. I can see why people were passionate about him.

Zyphlin said:

Its a wonderful thing if part of your goal on this forum is to perhaps win others to your side. Hell, that's the purpose of debate sometimes. But, as was said multiple times during the recent "McCain Ad's" threads...what works with the masses of the American Public doesn't necessarily apply to people actively involved and researching politics. Most anyone on this forum knows what hte immediete new political issues of today are...I ran into a woman last week that said she was voting for Hillary for President, having no clue she was out.

Click to expand...

Hillary should ask that lady for some money. :mrgreen:

Zyphlin said:

Want to win people to your side...rise above the partisan stuff and try for some actual factual civil debate. Don't just say "Obama's an empty suit", explain exactly why and how and why those things are bad. Don't just say "Obama's not an empty suit", explain his positions and why they're feasible and good.

Click to expand...

That would be nice.

What do you say folks?

Re: Half-brother Confirms Barack Grew up a Muslim

MC.no.spin said:

We should do a poll and establish the top offenders. These posters should then be forced to engage in reverse debate upstairs for a week. They can only make posts that are debating for the other side, or completely neutral with complete objectivity towards either party, Sutherland style. Any violation results in total basement humiliation and degradation, no holds barred.

Click to expand...

The poll would include many posters. Few are immune to this. As far as the top offenders go, honestly, identifying them becomes part of the problem. These posters partisan hackery would be responded to with opposite and equal partisan hacker. The problem escalates.

Your suggestion around forced reverse debate. Interesting, but impossible to enforce.

Good thoughts, though.

Re: Half-brother Confirms Barack Grew up a Muslim

JeffMerriman said:

I really have no idea why it got so messy. I think it's hyper reaction for the most part. Extremism begets extremism. The pendulum gets shoved one way with much force and comes right back the other direction unchecked.

Click to expand...

This is precisely what I mentioned in the post I just penned. Often extremism is addressed with equal, but opposite extremism. This is why the extremist view is a failed position. Those of you who post this way, I will tell you what you are accomplishing. The minority that already agrees with you, will continue to do so. Those that even moderately disagree, or, at least, disagree with your extremist position will be pushed further away from what you are professing. If your intent is to convey your message so others can hear it, YOU ARE FAILING MISERABLY. It is piss poor debating and piss poor communication. All you are doing is making your position look more absurd and ridiculous, and push others further from accepting it. This is why you fail and why extremists, in general, fail.

This, however, does not excuse those who respond to extremism with extremism. Those that do this fall right into the trap and are now validating the extremists fearmongering position. It takes a heap of frustration tolerance, but do not feed into it.

But know this, as long as people are upstairs making ignorant or deliberately misleading statements in order to advance their position (and backing them with bullshit evidence and flawed logic) I'll be there to point that out. Deconstructing that stuff is not only fun, it's necessary. I invite anyone to do the same to me if I cross that line.

Click to expand...

Calling people on bullshit is not the problem. How one does it could be.

That said, it goes without saying that I have been engaged in particularly nasty affairs with two posters here and at times my conduct has gotten beyond tasteful or constructive. So I'll take my spanking on this.

Click to expand...

Thank you, Jeff. You, Spin, and jallman, so far have earned a lot of respect by taking responsibility.

Re: Half-brother Confirms Barack Grew up a Muslim

Zyphlin said:

As a note to echo CC's concerns (And agree with him, everyones guilty of it. Even some of the best posters and more even keel on this site get swept up as the flood hits, its infectious).

This isn't just about some moderators being annoyed, or a few loan reports. We've had new members flat out say they were hesitant to even join the forum because the majority of it just seemed to be non-stop partisan propoganda and no actual debate. We've had long time posters here repeatedly pointing out that all the top seems like now in many forums if an aggressive, sarcastic, non-stop back and forth by people on both sides being completely hyperpartisan.

Its an election season, and partisanship typically becomes stronger during these times, but its getting to the point of absurdity and its damaging the forum. DP is meant to be a place where people, of all parts of the political spectrum, can gather together to discuss and debate issues civily and intelligently. Its not meant to be a partisan warfield where we make it our duties to sarcastically run down or reply to everyone we disagree with, or flood the forum with every non-issue event of the day. Its not a place to go to just say "I'm write, 100%, there's nothing that can sway me from it, and as such I'm going to yell it over and over again". That's not debating, that's just getting up on a soap box and exploiting the fact that the good people of this forum are here to read posts hoping ot find actual DEBATE, not to just be preached at.

When it was shown that its starting to affect people even thinking to join our forum, that's when it really hit how big of a problem this is.

Click to expand...

Zyphlin is 100% correct. Expanding on this, new members have identified concerns around joining because of the idiotic partisan attack infesting the forum. Long-time, solid posters are indicating that they are posting far less frequently because anything the say is getting misrepresented and attack in a partisan manner, or all the threads that they see degenerate into sarcastic positional attacks with little civility or focus on important issues. This is harming DP and has been.

IMO, many threads are not started with the intent to debate; they are started with the intent to soap box one's position, and then to put one's hand over one's ears, saying "la la la la" and not listen to anything else. You want to do that? Go write a blog. This is a debate site, not a "listen to me and then shut up" site. When I look at the Election Forum and I see the crap threads listed there, it tells me that many have either no intent to debate or just want to attack the other side with giddy abandon, with little understanding of what they are really discussing and doing.

Lots of you complain about the divisiveness in the US. You are part of the problem when you do any of the behaviors I am describing. And many, many, do this.

Re: Half-brother Confirms Barack Grew up a Muslim

danarhea said:

I am not sure that anything should be done about the rancor here, other than to reinforce the rules about personal attacks, etc.

This IS politics, after all, and this year, as much as any other year, people have very, very strong feelings, which of course, are going to be reflected in their postings. This is not unlike 2004, in which Kerry was swiftboated, or 2000, when McCain was destroyed by the "black baby" allegations. People in this forum, whether Democratic or Republican, are going to have feelings too, and they are going to use what is available to express those feelings. Don't blame the members here. Blame the talking heads who tell the public these things - The talking heads, whose maturity is that of not a baby, but a fetus - The talking heads, whose hatred of anyone and anything is just as anti American as hippies spitting on troops coming home from Vietnam, or KKK'ers lynching black people who wanted to vote. The problem here is not really the members, but the material that is available to them.

Click to expand...

I disagree, dan, and what you are doing is shifting responsibility. The talking heads may say things, but everyone here has their own will and mind and posts what they want. Each of us controls how we communicate. No one puts a gun to anyone's head and says, "post this, be a hack". I don't blame anyone, but the members here have just as much responsibility for listening and regurgitating what the talking heads say as the talking heads themselves.

The problem here is not the material, but many members refusal to think outside their box and absorb all the material and assess it critically.

As for the members themselves?

1) bhkad - Sure, he hates Obama, that is plain to see, so he pushes his view as hard as he can. But he is not really such a bad guy. I mean, today, he posted in the thread about the Democrat getting shot that we are Americans first. THAT was a great statement.

2) Mc.No.Spin - He and I have a long history of bashing each other, but here in the Basement, I found out that he has one hell of a good sense of humor. When I got him elected cocksucker and candy ass at the same time, he accepted that practical joke and laughed at himself. He has pull a few jokes on others too. So Mc.No.Spin realizes that political forums are primarily for having fun. Bingo - I think he is right.

3) Navy Pride - He and I don't see eye to eye on anything, but he has said some good things about me, and I was the first to defend him when he was going to leave. He and I both see good in each other, despite him calling me his "liberal friend" all the time, and me telling him that he had an anchor dropped in his head. LOL.

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I am not going to address the indictment of other members. Do you want to address your behavior as you see it, dan?

I can't blame the three that I mentioned for the problems that supposed to exist in this forum, but the way I see it. There are no real problems here - Not like compared to other boards. I am a member in other forums, and frankly, some of them are quite sick. One forum has a member called "Billy Bob", who has an emoticon he uses that depicts a stereotypical black man being shot in the head with a pistol. Compared to that, this board is quite tame.

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Compared to other boards, DP is excellent. That doesn't mean there are not problems that should not be addressed.

If you want to moderate this board more, I would be against that. The reason? The best moderation on any board is free and open discussion. If someone gets out of line in his or her arguments, he or she will be slapped down in no time. If I hadn't turned bhkad into road kill in this thread, somebody else would have. And it is the same with anybody else in the forum. Most of us have done it, and most of us have been embarrassed by being slapped down hard. I am not immune either. Ask RightInNYC about how he slapped me down a couple of times. My ass still smarts from one of his beatings. LOL.

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Moderation is only one avenue, and not the first choice. Besides, I am not discussing the stifling of ideas. I am talking about the restructuring of arguments to create debate...which is what this site is all about.

So, in the end, I wouldn't worry about it. Moderators, of course, should intervene when personal attacks are being made, but other than that, I would say let it continue as it has. Just like in the real world, nothing can be better for this forum than the free marketplace of information.

I hope this response has been helpful, and I beg of you - Please do not try and turn this forum into an ant farm. It would be most detrimental thing you could ever do here.

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What do you mean by "ant farm"?

Finally, lets all have fun.

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That's one of the things that the issues I have been discussing has been eliminating.

Re: Half-brother Confirms Barack Grew up a Muslim

Both IT and danarhea address the need for moderators to take the lead, more often, in threads. I will not speak for the moderation team. I will speak for myself, and as I have been lambasting the forum for not taking responsibility for their behavior, and insisting that y'all do, I will do the same. If it is true that one leads by example, I will attempt to do that, now.

I spend a great deal of time on DP, but, I also, have a very busy RL, with a lot of responsibilities. This limits the amount of threads that I can take the lead in. Also, I spend about 33% of my time at DP addressing threads that have already become problems, whereas simple poster redirection is no longer possible, as too many rules have been broken; I, also spend part of this 33% addressing ridiculous PMs from posters whining and taking no responsibility for infractions/warnings they have received. Now, this does not always happen, and some questions have turned into very productive PM conversations...recent discussions with Reverend_Hellh0und and GottaHurt come to mind as being very positive. The majority, however, are idiotic. Add anothe 16% to other mod duties, and half my time is already spoken for. This leaves me with less time to, actually, post on threads. I then need to be choosy, and, truthfully, as we all do, I have my favorite topics that I want to discuss.

However, I hear what the two of you are saying, and though, infractions/warnings are still going to occur when they are needed, I will attempt to take a more active role in threads that are in need of this, with some "redirection".

Re: Half-brother Confirms Barack Grew up a Muslim

This is precisely what I mentioned in the post I just penned. Often extremism is addressed with equal, but opposite extremism. This is why the extremist view is a failed position. Those of you who post this way, I will tell you what you are accomplishing. The minority that already agrees with you, will continue to do so. Those that even moderately disagree, or, at least, disagree with your extremist position will be pushed further away from what you are professing. If your intent is to convey your message so others can hear it, YOU ARE FAILING MISERABLY. It is piss poor debating and piss poor communication. All you are doing is making your position look more absurd and ridiculous, and push others further from accepting it. This is why you fail and why extremists, in general, fail.

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This is nothing new.
Some issues, such as abortion, are always and have always been this way.
Moderates and fence-sitters and centrists are immediately shouted down and frightened away by one side screaming in their ear "Oh, so you think it's just a little bit okay to slaughter innocent children!!??", while the other side screams in their other ear, "Oh, so you think it's sort of okay sometimes, under certain circumstances, to enslave females!!??"
If they stay, it's because they've fallen off the fence onto one side or the other, and come up swinging.
There's really no other way to approach the issue, that I know of. It's either 100% wrong in all cases, or else it's a right in 100% of cases (not right in all cases- certainly not the correct course of action, for instance, if you'd like to have a kid- but a right, in all cases).

This polarization has merely moved to center stage, with the coming election, rather than being off to the side in a dimly-lit little alley, where only marginal types- obsessed, single-issue voters- hang out smoking, rolling dice, drinking out of paper bags, and knocking the crap out of each other for the hell of it.

In other words, the ferocity and venom that is typically reserved for hot-button issues has now gone mainstream, infected an issue that shouldn't be that emotional- elections- but somehow is this time, probably because our country's gone down the toilet and we know it, and we all secretly hope, deep in our hearts, that one of these two men will be our salvation.

Re: Half-brother Confirms Barack Grew up a Muslim

Zyphilin said:

then why are you doing the latter if your purpose is impacting in even a small way the election coming up?

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Anyone who thinks they can impact the election coming up by posting here is misguided in the first place. Although one way they have impact is that by posting on a forum where an anti-McCain crowd or an anti-Obama crowd can gather, they will get more campaign donations for their favorite candidate.

This is not to discredit in any way a poster's value in posting here. What we really all are, in my analysis, are pioneers of a new form of democracy that will exist in the not too distant future.

The future of politics revolves around the cyber world. Evidence abounds we are arriving at this plateau now, such as with the remarkable fundraising campaigns of Obama and Ron Paul.

This will evolve.

I envision a whole new connection with Senators, Representatives and the White House, where our cyber communities will be equivalent to what interest groups are now. There will be environmental communities, illegal immigration communities, healthcare communities, education communities, etc. that will all be networked and channelled to a single hub, the public office holder. These individual networks will be given problems and asked to work out the solutions. They will also raise concerns and give perspectives that the official needs to be aware of. Each network will have moderators that sift through the bric-a-brack and establish the impactful data. Members will have a strong voice, and vigilant of moderators. A whole new democracy is possible, like originally with town halls. Now we have cyber halls.

Candidates will be quickly assessed in strengths by these communities, and thus more intelectually sound support will occur for candidates, rather than rock star or war hero credentials.

A lot of this gets barred today by the spam and b.s. we all occasionally dive into, sometimes in a spirit of humor, sometimes a spirit of spite, and sometimes completely misunderstood by half the board. How this hurdle will be solved, to provide rational deliberation of valid political concerns, is still to unfold. We are pioneering those very solutions in this thread.

Re: Half-brother Confirms Barack Grew up a Muslim

MC.no.spin said:

Anyone who thinks they can impact the election coming up by posting here is misguided in the first place. Although one way they have impact is that by posting on a forum where an anti-McCain crowd or an anti-Obama crowd can gather, they will get more campaign donations for their favorite candidate.

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This I disagree with. I think one can impact the election at least on a small scale, but not in the way one intentionally tries. How many people have leaned one way or the other after hearing someone's intended argumemt?

How many have leaned the opposite after reading factless, **** filled, crazy bitch talk?

Re: Half-brother Confirms Barack Grew up a Muslim

How about enabling the reputation feature on this forum software as a start? It might inspire better posting, and alert users to poorly reputed posters. Putting them on ignore then leaves users with a more manageable scene.

This is what the vbulletin software this forum uses could enable, if desired (note the descriptions of the various levels can be re-worded, such as "partisan hack not to be listened to" "beacon of political wisdom" etc.):



"User Reputation in its simplest form is a ranking of your user's benefit to your forum. Its basis comes from the opinions of all of your forum users that choose take part in it.

Users gain and lose reputation based on how their posts are scored by other forum participants. Users with the ability to affect reputation, will either give or take aways points by approving or disapproving with a post's content."

vBulletin Manual

Re: Half-brother Confirms Barack Grew up a Muslim

MC.no.spin said:

How about enabling the reputation feature on this forum software as a start? It might inspire better posting, and alert users to poorly reputed posters. Putting them on ignore then leaves users with a more manageable scene.

This is what the vbulletin software this forum uses could enable, if desired (not the descriptions of the various levels can be re-worded, such as "partisan hack not to be listened to" "beacon of political wisdom" etc.):

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The reputation feature is not all that. At Political Forum, some people create multiple accounts in order to give themselves reputation points. People there also have groups, where everybody in the group give others in that group reputation points whenever they are able to, and thus reputation becomes a function of partisanship. IMHO, the thanks button is a better option.

Re: Half-brother Confirms Barack Grew up a Muslim

danarhea said:

The reputation feature is not all that. At Political Forum, some people create multiple accounts in order to give themselves reputation points. People there also have groups, where everybody in the group give others in that group reputation points whenever they are able to, and thus reputation becomes a function of partisanship. IMHO, the thanks button is a better option.

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I think the thanks button should be kept, and even add a "no thanks" button - I believe both this and reputation points can be used at the same time (I may be mistaken.)

The system has many modifications you can make to it. In fact, it could be set so that only moderators can give reputation.

This section contains many settings that dictate how users of your forum are able to affect each other's reputation score.

* Enable User Reputation system
This is the global switch for the reputation system. If you disable this, users will not be able to rate each other nor will their scores be visible.
* Default Reputation
This is the reputation score that new users will start out with.
* Number of Reputation Levels to Display
When a user enters their User CP, they will see a list of their most recent reputation ratings. This affects how many of the latest ratings to display.
* Administrator's Reputation Power
If you wish to have administrator's wield a certain reputation power independent of their calculated score, enter it here. Otherwise, set this to 0 and they will use the same calculations as everyone else.
* Register Date Factor
The number of reputation points that a user is able to give or take is dependant on several factors, with the length they have been registered as one of them. A user's power is first initialized at 1 and then this factor and the factors that follow are used to increase it. For example if you set this to 365, every 365 days that the user has been a member of your forum, they would gain one point. So if they have been a member for five years, they would gain 5 points of power for a total of 6.
* Post Count Factor
The amount of posts that a user has can also affect their reputation power. Set this to number of posts that you want to award one point for. For example, set this to 50 and for a user with 500 posts, they would gain 10 points of power.
* Reputation Point Factor
The users current reputation score can also affect their reputation power. Set this to 100 and a user with a reputation of 1000 would gain 10 points of reputation power. If you set any of the power factors to 0, that will effectively remove that factor from having an effect on the user's reputation power.
* Minimum Post Count
If the reputation system is enabled, anyone will be able to rate a post but only users with a post count above the level you set here will be able to actually give points or take points from another user.
* Minimum Reputation Count
As with the post count above, a user must have a reputation above this level to be able to give or take points from another user's score.
* Daily Reputation Clicks Limit
This sets how many unique members that a forum user will be able to rate in any 24 hour period. Administrators can rate as many people as they wish.
* Reputation User Spread
This setting dictates how many unique members that a user must rate before they are able to rate the same member twice. The goal of this setting is to stop a member from either artificially bumping or dropping a user by repeatedly rating their posts.

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Re: Half-brother Confirms Barack Grew up a Muslim

Why bother Mc.No.Spin?

We already know who's valuable here and who's a flaming pile of dog ****. Merely giving numbers doesn't change that. Do you really think certain posters are going to start posting intelligently because of that system? Do you think that Sutherland is going to change his excellent fact filled posting style because of numbers? The thanks system here doesn't do that. Why would that?