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Left Party leader sparks communism controversy

Republic_Of_Public said:
Reading the case histories prove all too often that the people and ideas discredit and demonise themselves - Liberals/Libtards because they've turned authoritarian (as Red Dave pointed out) and Islam because.... well, the list competes with the last ten years' telephone directories combined for length! (Ballpark estimate anyway!)



http://www.debatepolitics.com/europ...es-and-vested-interests-6.html#post1059225863
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In your opinion. I have seen very little evidence presented.
 
Republic_Of_Public said:
That was explored in the Communists Against Oppression topic too. I (and my Slavic family through experience, more importantly) know about Communism in action, which kicks the pulp theory into the long grass.

And plus, neo-Nazis claim true Nazism never killed any Jews - but I don't give them any credit for even their being nauseated at the results of their own extremist politics, going into flat denial as they do.




I never did. As German Guy said, there are plenty of different people in the Left - commies, mainstream socialists who don't need to murder to impoverish a country, the 'PC' clowns, you name it.
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Ad hominem, effective. That said Neo Nazis have in fact been responsible for murders so it's not a great example, and I'm talking about communism for what it really is, an economic system. It has a lot of problems, so does capitalism, so does socialism.
 
In your opinion. I have seen very little evidence presented.
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If that be so, the mods must have spring-cleaned the boards of all the stuff which annoys Alexa, German Guy and the others since I popped off to start the vacuuming.
 
tlmorg02 said:
Thus, I postulate that Marx's theory is very much alive and that at some point we may very well be faced with the two classes that Marx foretold. In the US we are surely seeing the division between the wealthy and poor increase rapidly. In Europe especially, it should seem the world would see the transformations and move toward communism first, as the continent has already taken the step of softening their borders.
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And as the United States moves towards the Left those divisions will increase. In China, as they move towards he right, the divisions of old are decreasing. Under the extreme left of Communism there are only two levels, the rich and powerful versus the impoverished.

The lessons of all the isms of the previous century appear lost on those who still feel that a large government with the right attitude and philosophy can solve our worldly problems, forgetting that when we get big and powerful governments the people in control of it can change, and have quite a different philosophy of power than what was originally intended.

It's the law of untended consequences, and nowhere is that more evident then when people put their faith in politicians and big government,
 
William Rea said:
I tried, but I cannot take this post seriously. After all the demonising of Libtards, Leftists and Islam that has been perpertrated on this forum you are questioning me on this point.

I suggest you type "homophobic attacks by far right groups" or any variant on that into Google to find out for yourself.
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So no evidence then.

I'm sure there are charges of "homophobic attacks by far right groups" but they are always made by Leftists and are thus not taken seriously.
 
Sean_H said:
Ad hominem, effective. That said Neo Nazis have in fact been responsible for murders so it's not a great example, and I'm talking about communism for what it really is, an economic system. It has a lot of problems, so does capitalism, so does socialism.
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Communism is much more than an "economic system". it is an enforced economic system that doesn't work and never has worked.

We can see Communes in the west that have worked for brief periods of time but usually people try them for a while and gradually drift away, for what ever reasons they might have. Under actual Communism none of this 'drifting away" is allowed. You can only try to escape, and the government will kill you if you try. It is like calling slavery an "economic system". It gives it an air of authenticity it certainly doesn't deserve.
 
Ad hominem, effective.
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No, truth. There's a difference.



That said Neo Nazis have in fact been responsible for murders so it's not a great example
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On the contrary, it's one of the most glaring common factors.



I'm talking about communism for what it really is, an economic system. It has a lot of problems, so does capitalism, so does socialism.
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Do socialism and capitalism have these problems:


KATYN:
katyn_wood_massacre.jpg


NKVD prisoner massacres - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Soviet war crimes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Why Didn't Communism Work in Eastern Europe?

Communism failed in Eastern European countries for the same reason it routinely fails in others — there's no money in it, at least not for the people who need it most. While the economic system known as communism may have worked well on paper, the political form of communism forced on Eastern European countries brought little more than oppression and hardship to the working class citizens it exploited.
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The Black Book of Communism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

BlackBook.gif



http://www.debatepolitics.com/europ...anybody-else-see-oxymoron.html#post1058780044

Lenin Unleashed Systematic Murder of 200,000 Clergy , etc.








I'm talking about communism for what it really is, an economic system.
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One counted in bodies!

Anyone can big-up a political system. Indeed, Mussolini's son, on Charles Wheeler's The Road To War, said:

My father, Benito Mussolini had a big dream. He wanted a stong and fierce Italy, respected for its law and order and the highest form of social justice.

He wanted a new Italian character, worthy of its Roman heritage and the brilliance of the Renaissance. Such a race would have been amongst the future leaders of the world.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BzFriDRNSY



Law and order - hmmm, good idea. Cultural revolution, social justice and future leaders of the world are epithets bandied about by revolutionary politicians through the ages. Even the prototype commie Napoleon gave it the old spiel.

But all that's useless when you see how things REALLY turn out!
 
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Grant said:
And as the United States moves towards the Left those divisions will increase. In China, as they move towards he right, the divisions of old are decreasing. Under the extreme left of Communism there are only two levels, the rich and powerful versus the impoverished.

The lessons of all the isms of the previous century appear lost on those who still feel that a large government with the right attitude and philosophy can solve our worldly problems, forgetting that when we get big and powerful governments the people in control of it can change, and have quite a different philosophy of power than what was originally intended.

It's the law of untended consequences, and nowhere is that more evident then when people put their faith in politicians and big government,
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I do not disagree. However, if the US were to move to the extreme right, then we would facilitate the rise of communism. Deregulation and too little government leads to exploitation of workers and the movement of capital to the cheapest source of labor. This will have the same effect as being under totalitarian communist control as one may easily witness. Thus a balance must be struck in order to insure that a fair system is in play that will allow those with the mental capacity and skills, the opportunity to raise their station in the US. An extreme rightwing or leftwing will block and essentially kill any such ability.
 
Grant said:
Communism is much more than an "economic system". it is an enforced economic system that doesn't work and never has worked.

We can see Communes in the west that have worked for brief periods of time but usually people try them for a while and gradually drift away, for what ever reasons they might have. Under actual Communism none of this 'drifting away" is allowed. You can only try to escape, and the government will kill you if you try. It is like calling slavery an "economic system". It gives it an air of authenticity it certainly doesn't deserve.
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All economic systems are enforced one way or another. There is nothing in the definition of communism that mandates murder.
 
They found that in Weimar Germany, where the rush of huge numbers of voters to the extremes polarised the fledgeling Democratic system.

Luckily, we've got no forecastable situation which could lead to the implementation of fascist or communist government inthe USA. It's just not in their bones for one thing.
 
There is nothing in the definition of communism that mandates murder.
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No mention of murder in the Nazi manifesto either. Crap yes, but not murder.

But the murders still occurred in the Communist states worldwide though. More than the Nazis could have hoped for too.
 
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Republic_Of_Public said:
No, truth. There's a difference.
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I was referring to your names for "leftists" next time I'll quote the spot specifically.

Republic_Of_Public said:
On the contrary, it's one of the most glaring common factors.
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Not really what I was talking about but it's aside the point.




Republic_Of_Public said:
Do socialism and capitalism have these problems:


KATYN:
katyn_wood_massacre.jpg
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Yes actually, wars over diamonds have killed countless people in Africa. Working in a coal mine used to stick you to that mine until you died, today many outsourced jobs barely pay enough to live off of much less live safely with any prospects of remaining healthy all in the name of profit. Being a slave to a wage isn't very different from any slavery. Communism has never been well implemented and we've never really seen a communist country (it has really only seen some success on very small scales Wavy Gravey still has a commune). Don't equate my being critical of any system as endorsement of another.


Republic_Of_Public said:
One counted in bodies!


Law and order - hmmm, good idea. Cultural revolution, social justice and future leaders of the world are epithets bandied about by revolutionary politicians through the ages. Even the prototype commie Napoleon gave it the old spiel.

But all that's useless when you see how things REALLY turn out!
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That people are greedy, which has and always will be the problem with everything.
 
Communism has never been well implemented...
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My God, how many more to die?!

And on the subject of wars, we had aggressive Communist expansion and their intimidating spectre of nuclear confrontation. We saw communists invade Poland (1939), South Korea, Vietnam, or the Baltic states for example. Communist spies infiltrated the top secret American development plants to carry away the secrets of nuclear bombmaking which saw the subsequent explosion(!) in missile numbers and confrontation of the Cold War.

Communists backed terrorists from armed 'guerrilla' armies to the likes of the Baader-Meinhofs. They also helped bring missiles to the South American continent and provided arms supplies for countless troublemakers worldwide.

Communism in practice is greed for blood.
 
tlmorg02 said:
I do not disagree. However, if the US were to move to the extreme right, then we would facilitate the rise of communism. Deregulation and too little government leads to exploitation of workers and the movement of capital to the cheapest source of labor. This will have the same effect as being under totalitarian communist control as one may easily witness. Thus a balance must be struck in order to insure that a fair system is in play that will allow those with the mental capacity and skills, the opportunity to raise their station in the US. An extreme rightwing or leftwing will block and essentially kill any such ability.
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The US government, since Roosevelt, and later accelerated by Johnson and now Obama, has been moving Left. I see no evidence that there has been, overall, a rightward trend. Too little government is not the same as too few laws, and there are plenty of laws now designed to protect workers.

And yes, certainly people will be attracted to cheaper labor and that has always been the case, though there has to be sufficient competence along with the cost. But individuals also have the opportunity to increase their talents and qualifications and thus their income. People, in a free society, tend to get paid what they're worth. It is the same whether we are selling our time or our goods. The value must satisfy both.

This is basic stuff and something we can understand without the interference of government trying to manipulate market forces. We don't need big government near as much as we think we do. They are always the real danger, and go by many names.
 
Sean_H said:
All economic systems are enforced one way or another. There is nothing in the definition of communism that mandates murder.
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Murder is an inevitable consequence unless Communism is voluntary. Every communist nation has always been Stalinist and a Police State. There is just no getting around that fact.

It's best to condemn Communism outright than try to make excuses for it or claim true Communism has never been tried. It has, many times.
 
It's best to condemn Communism outright than try to make excuses for it or claim true Communism has never been tried. It has, many times.
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Said in a nutshell.
 
Republic_Of_Public said:
My God, how many more to die?!

And on the subject of wars, we had aggressive Communist expansion and their intimidating spectre of nuclear confrontation. We saw communists invade Poland (1939), South Korea, Vietnam, or the Baltic states for example. Communist spies infiltrated the top secret American development plants to carry away the secrets of nuclear bombmaking which saw the subsequent explosion(!) in missile numbers and confrontation of the Cold War.

Communists backed terrorists from armed 'guerrilla' armies to the likes of the Baader-Meinhofs. They also helped bring missiles to the South American continent and provided arms supplies for countless troublemakers worldwide.

Communism in practice is greed for blood.
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Was that the only part of the post you read? All your reasons communism is a problem can be attributed to religion as well btw. Like I said I never endorsed anything, none of those countries were ever real communist systems.
 
Grant said:
Murder is an inevitable consequence unless Communism is voluntary. Every communist nation has always been Stalinist and a Police State. There is just no getting around that fact.

It's best to condemn Communism outright than try to make excuses for it or claim true Communism has never been tried. It has, many times.
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I never said that wasn't true. I specifically said I didn't endorse communism (much less involuntary anything) I'm just stating facts.
 
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Like I said I never endorsed anything, none of those countries were ever real communist systems.
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Never said you did endorse them, though your continual statements that every single Communist government wasn't doing it properly suggests sympathy or a validation of what should be left in the past.

Pulp fiction's always trumped by the results. And as half my own family lived through communist horrors in Poland, I know whose word I prefer to take over what it was all like.
 
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Grant said:
The US government, since Roosevelt, and later accelerated by Johnson and now Obama, has been moving Left. I see no evidence that there has been, overall, a rightward trend. Too little government is not the same as too few laws, and there are plenty of laws now designed to protect workers.

And yes, certainly people will be attracted to cheaper labor and that has always been the case, though there has to be sufficient competence along with the cost. But individuals also have the opportunity to increase their talents and qualifications and thus their income. People, in a free society, tend to get paid what they're worth. It is the same whether we are selling our time or our goods. The value must satisfy both.

This is basic stuff and something we can understand without the interference of government trying to manipulate market forces. We don't need big government near as much as we think we do. They are always the real danger, and go by many names.
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However, I would suppose you disagree with GE selling jet engine technology to China?
 
Republic_Of_Public said:
Never said you did endorse them, though your continual statements that every single Communist government wasn't doing it properly suggests sympathy or a validation of what should be left in the past.

Pulp fiction's always trumped by the results. And as half my own family lived through communist horrors in Poland, I know whose word I prefer to take over what it was all like.
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Are you talking about the soviet or German invasion because Nazi=/= communist. And it's not a validation no pure system has ever existed. You have been treating every post as if I'm advocating any system (which I'm not) I'm only pointing out that the issues you bring up with communism are 1. Not exclusive to communism and 2. Not what it would have to be necessarily. I'm only arguing the economics as I have said, it's never played out well which is why I don't advocate it but I also don't pretend that capitalism= good for everyone.
 
My grandmother lived on a farm which was over-run by the Communists in 1939 and was later absorbed into the Ukraine under Stalin's ethnic cleansing policies. The village is now just rolling hills and forest. She had to undergo constant Stalinist-Leninist brainwashing and saw people gradually disappear, taken away by the NKVD if they weren't seen to fully convert. These were the same people who shot countless Poles, including the Polish officers at Katyn.

Then the Germans came and the scattering of her family was complete. Ironically, she ended up on a farm in Austria and actually worried a little less than she did under the 'failed economists' of the Communists. Amongst her fellow refugee friends here was a woman who had to endure a Siberian march.


1. Not exclusive to communism
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Happened with Nazism too.


2. Not what it would have to be necessarily.
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They've had all the chances in the world to prove it. It turned out the only way it could.



I'm only arguing the economics as I have said, it's never played out well which is why I don't advocate it
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Suppose you had the totalitarian state and mass murder plus the economic success? To a great extent the model for that is Nazi Germany.
 
And it's not a validation no pure system has ever existed.
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Then just condemn communism and find a strong brand of socialism to believe in.

Communism's a soiled brand. Don't try rehabilitating it, else people may only think you want to regress to the '80s and back.
 
RoP I think this article accurately refutes your assumptions. What happened with the USSR is quite accurately described as State Capitalism, not at all what Marx proposed. Try and read it.

Was the USSR Communist? | A Division by Zer0
 
Republic_Of_Public said:
My grandmother lived on a farm which was over-run by the Communists in 1939 and was later absorbed into the Ukraine under Stalin's ethnic cleansing policies. The village is now just rolling hills and forest. She had to undergo constant Stalinist-Leninist brainwashing and saw people gradually disappear, taken away by the NKVD if they weren't seen to fully convert. These were the same people who shot countless Poles, including the Polish officers at Katyn.

Then the Germans came and the scattering of her family was complete. Ironically, she ended up on a farm in Austria and actually worried a little less than she did under the 'failed economists' of the Communists. Amongst her fellow refugee friends here was a woman who had to endure a Siberian march.




Happened with Nazism too.




They've had all the chances in the world to prove it. It turned out the only way it could.





Suppose you had the totalitarian state and mass murder plus the economic success? To a great extent the model for that is Nazi Germany.
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Thank you for the explaination I really was curious about the circumstances. I don't think we have as much disagreement as you think. My whole argument is that if it happened without the totalitarian state and consequences you mentioned then the system in its self wouldn't be very different from any system. I know how things have turned out, it's a system that's far too easy to abuse. All I mean is that people advocating for communism do have good intentions, no one wants it to become what it has (which seems to be an eventuality judging by the past).
 
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