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Germany might cancel to buy 45 american fighter jets

swing_voter said:
The best military and diplomatic minds in the West say NATO is needed in this day and age. Why don't we all do our part and support it?


We the experts say it's no longer needed, we'll disband it.
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We all do. We pay our fees, and contribute the military power and gear that we have agreed on, plus are politically willing to pay for. Sometimes this means buying ****ty expensive US made crap, other times it means we build our own in Europe. In total NATO members contribute as much as there is needed to counter the threats that are out there... which are not many in the NATO sphere of influence, aka Europe and North America. One could argue that we contribute wayyyy more than we should considering the threats there are. No need for massive parking lots of tanks when the real threat are right wing religious nutjobs with a bomb strapped to their body.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
Is spending more better for the military or is spending less better in actual dollar values
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I dont think he understands % of something and how stupid it is. Just imagine that you have an insurance plan or rent, that is a percentage of your income... So say your appartement, a ****ty leaky 2 bedroom rat infested hell hole, costs 10% of your income. You get a raise, so your rent goes up.... still the same ****ty place, but it now costs more.. Cool!
 
PeteEU said:
.... Germany certainly started WW2.. but WW1 is another matter. That is far more complicated to say the least if you actually knew something about the lead up to the war. If anyone instigated WW1, then it was the Serb nationalists.... the same ones who 80 years later would committed war crimes against Bosnia... go figure.
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It is generally agreed it was the Kaiser giving a blank check assurance of his support to the Austria-Hungary Empire that actually was the most significant factor in it becoming an actual shooting war.
 
Rostocker said:
We have only an obligation towards our own people. We say no to 2 %. Case closed.
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Merkel is trying to find money to add to the defense budget. It's not easy especially when your own foreign minister is against you on it and critical of Nato besides.

To get to 2% of German GDP Merkel has to find 20bn euros more, presumably over the next four years.


Merkel: Germany to heavily increase Bundeswehr budget

The chancellor says Germany will spend billions more than currently budgeted on its military. This comes in response to criticism from the United States that fellow NATO members don't contribute enough to mutual defense.

16.10.2016


Merkel told representatives from her Christian Democratic Union's youth organizations that Germany would be increasing its military spending to 2 percent of GDP, in line with an agreement that NATO states reached in 2014. The country currently spends around 1.2 percent of GDP on the Bundeswehr. "In the 21st century, we won't be getting as much help as we got in the 20th," Merkel said. "We need to greatly increase the Bundeswehr budget to get from 1.2 to 2 percent."

To meet that target, Germany's defense spending would have to rise to some 60 billion euros. The current planned military budget for the year 2020 is 39.2 billion euros. Merkel cited pressure from US president Barack Obama. And there has been criticism from across the political spectrum that America's NATO allies allow the US to shoulder an unfair share of the mutual defense burden. So are the other members of NATO in essence freeloading - or to quote Obama "free riding" - off of Washington's enormous military spending? The answer is anything but clear-cut. The contributions that NATO members make to the costs of the alliance are calculated with reference to their gross national income. Currently the US bears around 22 percent of NATO costs, compared with 15 percent for Germany, 11 percent for France and 10 percent for the United Kingdom.

Merkel: Germany to heavily increase Bundeswehr budget | Germany| News and in-depth reporting from Berlin and beyond | DW | 16.10.2016
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Perspective matters.
 
Fledermaus said:
Incorrect.
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As much you strample, eavh budget must be signed into law by the Bundestag. There is no single german party that would sign a 2% defense budget. Ergo there wont be a 2% budget.

Thats called democracy.
 
Tangmo said:
Merkel is trying to find money to add to the defense budget. It's not easy especially when your own foreign minister is against you on it and critical of Nato besides.

To get to 2% of German GDP Merkel has to find 20bn euros more, presumably over the next four years.


Merkel: Germany to heavily increase Bundeswehr budget

The chancellor says Germany will spend billions more than currently budgeted on its military. This comes in response to criticism from the United States that fellow NATO members don't contribute enough to mutual defense.

16.10.2016






Perspective matters.
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That was 2016. Germany gave up on that and says it maybe will reach that 2031 or maybe not.

You should look at actual articles
 
Tangmo said:
The case against you and Putin with Merkel on Nordstream is strong, powerful, overwhelming. Because this is yet another geostrategic instance in which the market is subsumed by issues of national and continental security and global political stability. Yet Europe now has you and Putin with Merkel regularly falling all over herself to convince Putin Germans love him and trust him which Germans don't.

So the question seems to be whether you're driving Putin's sinister policies or whether Putin in his evil designs is driving you.






History is also our guide in the Nordstream II political and geostrategic -- and economic -- setting. You in the east of Germany spent nearly 50 years under Russian Soviet daily rule and control and almost 20 years in the 3rd Reich before that. While you were born after unification you have lived in this outpost of totalitarianism, militarism, and war. Indeed, you are the last person here I'm listening to on the whole of it to include Nordstream II that has profound geostrategic meaning to the security of Europe, the EU and the USA, which is also why there continues to be a Nato.

Germany and Russia on this have been described by a Polish defense minister as making a kind of "Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact" which is also enough for me to consider your position and views on this as untrustworthy to say the least. You know Biden is no friend of Russia and that because Biden has a lifelong commitment to Nato, that, if he's elected, you and Putin are going to want these good old dayze of Trump the ignoramus back again.
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None of your business, we want cheap energy, Nordstream II guarantees that. And stop your racist bull**** against me by assuming stuff based on where i am born.

Poland is an enemy of Germany. They want steal our money and cry because the pipeline doesnt cross their area.

German energy politics are decided in Berlin. Nowhere else.
 
Fledermaus said:
If Germany doesn't spend 2% they aren't doing their part.

1.37% < 2.00%
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Non binding agreement that is to be met by 2024. Germany could spend 0% and be with in the agreement unlike 2024
 
german hick said:
may be your personal enemy, but never ever the enemy of Germany - stop writing plain lies and stop insisting your personal opinions have anything to do with Germany
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Stop insisting your leftist lala unicorn bull**** has anything to do with Germany. That a Green defends the homo hating, facist, Anti German PiS regime is amusing as ****.
 
Rostocker said:
Stop insisting your leftist lala unicorn bull**** has anything to do with Germany. That a Green defends the homo hating, facist, Anti German PiS regime is amusing as ****.
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I don´t claim to speak for all Germans - but you do constantly.
 
Rostocker said:
That was 2016. Germany gave up on that and says it maybe will reach that 2031 or maybe not.

You should look at actual articles
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The intent and desire to get to 2% has been stated by the German Chancellor.

The date to achieve it is being jiggled.

Ask me if the Germans will get to 2% and I'd say no. Not foreseeably.

All the same however you haven't ever mentioned that the German Chancellor stated her intention to get to 2%. Further, Merkel stated her intention -- realistically or not realistically -- while Obama was Potus.


Moreover if Trump succeeds in seizing dictatorial powers by the end of the year he's going to make your Germany into a province of Poland. If Biden is elected in an actual successful election you're still going to have to put a couple of more bucks into your military defense.
 
Drawdown said:
We don't need to upgrade it. It is steal stealthy except for the S-400 system of Russia's so it will pave the way for the not stealthy with armed payloads eurofighter if they buy them. Either way, I really don't care that much if they do or don't. Sice they cannot honor their NATO commitment without them, we should look at ending Nato or kicking out France and Germany.
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You buying into the tRump BS about a stealth F18???? :roll:

At best the coating reduces the radar sig 10% on a clean aircraft. Now add all the other munitions, pods, and tanks onto the pylons- the F18 ain't stealthy. The F18 is an attack aircraft, the Typhoons air superiority. The ONLY thing stopping the Typhoon from being a nuke certified aircraft is the reluctance our government has on supplying the PAL system. Older European airframes have been upgraded with PAL and are certified. The US wants to make the big bucks selling older airframes instead of much cheaper upgrade systems.

We need Germany as much as Germany needs us. During the Iraqi fiasco having a first rate military hospital off shore in Germany was priceless to the floundering BushII administration. No daily news coverage of battered bodies coming home, the casualties spend months out of sight healing before coming home. The Air Force base was vital to the airlifts into the Middle East.

No, the chest thumpers can demand all they want, we need NATO as much as they need us. We spend more because we are a global force, with global concerns, the Europeans a regional one.... :peace
 
Tangmo said:
The intent and desire to get to 2% has been stated by the German Chancellor.

The date to achieve it is being jiggled.

Ask me if the Germans will get to 2% and I'd say no. Not foreseeably.

All the same however you haven't ever mentioned that the German Chancellor stated her intention to get to 2%. Further, Merkel stated her intention -- realistically or not realistically -- while Obama was Potus.


Moreover if Trump succeeds in seizing dictatorial powers by the end of the year he's going to make your Germany into a province of Poland. If Biden is elected in an actual successful election you're still going to have to put a couple of more bucks into your military defense.
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Even if Germany spent enough money to maintain what they currently have, it would be better.

Why even buy military hardware if you're not going to spend the money to keep it in good repair?

More than half of the German's Leopard 2 main battle tanks are unfit for service
 
Tangmo said:
The intent and desire to get to 2% has been stated by the German Chancellor.

The date to achieve it is being jiggled.

Ask me if the Germans will get to 2% and I'd say no. Not foreseeably.

All the same however you haven't ever mentioned that the German Chancellor stated her intention to get to 2%. Further, Merkel stated her intention -- realistically or not realistically -- while Obama was Potus.


Moreover if Trump succeeds in seizing dictatorial powers by the end of the year he's going to make your Germany into a province of Poland. If Biden is elected in an actual successful election you're still going to have to put a couple of more bucks into your military defense.
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All of the countries hitting the 2 % target was before Covid 19. With Covid 19 and the spending that occurred with it, military budgets will be squeezed
 
Rostocker said:
None of your business, we want cheap energy, Nordstream II guarantees that. And stop your racist bull**** against me by assuming stuff based on where i am born.

Poland is an enemy of Germany. They want steal our money and cry because the pipeline doesnt cross their area.

German energy politics are decided in Berlin. Nowhere else.
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Berlin has a history of making miserable decisions. You yourself are charging head down to be consistent with that.

Gazprom owns Nordstream II. Gazprom is the majority stockholder of a Swiss based corporation and is funded significantly by secretive Swiss banks. This deal is between Moscow and Berlin only as there aren't any other shareholders or decision makers involved. You're carrying on as if you think Europe exists under the will and direction of Berlin....and Moscow.

As I've pointed out, geostrategic factors are superior to your Deutschland hypernationalism. While you seem aware geostrategically you also take the side and interests of Russia in the entirety of it while constantly assailing the United States. While you are strident and bold you concomitantly have zero criticisms of Russia while never mentioning the name of its leader, Putin...or Gazprom, or the fact of the Russian oligarchs. Hence I don't trust a word you say.
 
german hick said:
context? - do you have any limits for your childishness?
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You defend even the PiS government in Poland. Thats simply perverted but typical for greens. Protest against AfD but meet and greet with Ayatollah Chamenei.
 
Tangmo said:
The intent and desire to get to 2% has been stated by the German Chancellor.

The date to achieve it is being jiggled.

Ask me if the Germans will get to 2% and I'd say no. Not foreseeably.

All the same however you haven't ever mentioned that the German Chancellor stated her intention to get to 2%. Further, Merkel stated her intention -- realistically or not realistically -- while Obama was Potus.


Moreover if Trump succeeds in seizing dictatorial powers by the end of the year he's going to make your Germany into a province of Poland. If Biden is elected in an actual successful election you're still going to have to put a couple of more bucks into your military defense.
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I have alot intentions too. Merkel says we might, should, could try but never made any serious intents. There is no majority for a 2% defense budget.
 
Rostocker said:
As much you strample, eavh budget must be signed into law by the Bundestag. There is no single german party that would sign a 2% defense budget. Ergo there wont be a 2% budget.
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Why not? You go on and on about how Germany has a 60 billion surplus and could afford to buy a dozen Ford class aircraft carriers easily. What's the big deal about increasing your defense budget given those facts?
 
Tangmo said:
Berlin has a history of making miserable decisions. You yourself are charging head down to be consistent with that.

Gazprom owns Nordstream II. Gazprom is the majority stockholder of a Swiss based corporation and is funded significantly by secretive Swiss banks. This deal is between Moscow and Berlin only as there aren't any other shareholders or decision makers involved. You're carrying on as if you think Europe exists under the will and direction of Berlin....and Moscow.

As I've pointed out, geostrategic factors are superior to your Deutschland hypernationalism. While you seem aware geostrategically you also take the side and interests of Russia in the entirety of it while constantly assailing the United States. While you are strident and bold you concomitantly have zero criticisms of Russia while never mentioning the name of its leader, Putin...or Gazprom, or the fact of the Russian oligarchs. Hence I don't trust a word you say.
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The Pipeline will be finalized. You better learn to accept that and shove your geostrategy where no sun shines.

American LNG costs 30% more. It cant compete and Trump is Not trustworthy.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
All of the countries hitting the 2 % target was before Covid 19. With Covid 19 and the spending that occurred with it, military budgets will be squeezed
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Pentagon is already preparing for a budget reduction of 2% to 3% to be set in the DoD authorization that will move through Congress next year no matter. A reduction is guaranteed.

USA meanwhile is only going deeper into the Covid 19 catastrophe as Trump demands schools open as per normal. And as Trump continues to oppose testing and so on. A consequence is that some of us can foresee the possibility of a 5% reduction despite China and Russia becoming bolder as the USA continues to descend into chaos.
 
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