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The EU is post-democratic.

Lord Tammerlain said:
If the countries never repay their debt and default that would of course hurt Germany would it not?

The issue is not with Germany but poor leadership of other countries
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I agree that the poorer countries should take responsibility for borrowing what they could not pay back 100%...but I also think the Germans knew what they were doing. I don't know where the poorer countries borrowed their money from so I don't know whether default would impact greatly on Germany.
 
Big Eye said:
Are you a Bulgarian?
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Nope. Born in East Anglia, my Mum is from Northern Ireland and my dad is also from East Anglia.
I live in Bedfordshire. Not been to Bulgaria but I do know a lovely lady at work from Latvia.
 
Peter said:
Nope. Born in East Anglia, my Mum is from Northern Ireland and my dad is also from East Anglia.
I live in Bedfordshire. Not been to Bulgaria but I do know a lovely lady at work from Latvia.
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We used to have an Australian lad at work (roofing company) who used to turn up for work at the office in flip flops and dressed like a surfer lol...maybe he was an Austrian and I misheard him though ...unless we're in some secret UK/Australia Union I haven't heard about.

Equating the EU with the ability of foreigners to work here is very selective given the ability of virtually anyone with necessary skill and sponsorship to come here and work.
 
Big Eye said:
We used to have an Australian lad at work (roofing company) who used to turn up for work at the office in flip flops and dressed like a surfer lol...maybe he was an Austrian and I misheard him though ...unless we're in some secret UK/Australia Union I haven't heard about.

Equating the EU with the ability of foreigners to work here is very selective given the ability of virtually anyone with necessary skill and sponsorship to come here and work.
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I didn't make any comment on this other than I voted to stay in the EU and that I haven't changed my mind.
The debate has been going on so long now I just want it to be over and everything has been argued to death.

My side lost and we're going to have to live with that and carry on. I'd be happy if I never hear the word Brexit ever again but that's not happening.
 
Peter said:
I didn't make any comment on this other than I voted to stay in the EU and that I haven't changed my mind.
The debate has been going on so long now I just want it to be over and everything has been argued to death.

My side lost and we're going to have to live with that and carry on. I'd be happy if I never hear the word Brexit ever again but that's not happening.
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I like your acceptance of the democratic mandate, and I think that the "Brexit" word has nearly come to the end of its usefulness...it all just comes down to whatever deal or not we get by January. After January you'll only see that word when referenced in the past tense.

The reality is that the whole virus situation has totally dwarfed the Brexit situation in terms of any longer term economic risks in any case.
 
Big Eye said:
I like your acceptance of the democratic mandate, and I think that the "Brexit" word has nearly come to the end of its usefulness...it all just comes down to whatever deal or not we get by January. After January you'll only see that word when referenced in the past tense.

The reality is that the whole virus situation has totally dwarfed the Brexit situation in terms of any longer term economic risks in any case.
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Definitely the virus has dwarfed the short term impact of brexit. Now with the virus and Brexit, the recovery for the UK will be longer and harder.

The UK is working hard to alienate two major markets, the EU and China. While the third major market is becoming more nationalist (US) and can produce anything the UK produces cheaper for the most part. Specialty products excepted
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
Definitely the virus has dwarfed the short term impact of brexit. Now with the virus and Brexit, the recovery for the UK will be longer and harder.

The UK is working hard to alienate two major markets, the EU and China. While the third major market is becoming more nationalist (US) and can produce anything the UK produces cheaper for the most part. Specialty products excepted
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I have no issue with decreasing our dependency on the vile CCP regime, even if there are short term costs involved...**** 'em. Companies like Samsung have already moved phone production out of China so alternatives are becoming more available.

As for the EU, it takes two to tango , it is they ,not the UK that is playing hard ball ...they are making demands that they wouldn't make of other countries for free trade deals. But I think that now many people in the UK are fully accepting of WTO rules with the EU...we need to move on.

It's also worth pointing out that there are massive trade imbalances with both China and the EU , in such a situation the UK has less to lose insofar as we can source our imports from elsewhere (eg Chilean wine rather than French, Japanese cars rather than German etc) . If we set out to increase imports from elsewhere ,non-EU countries will be bending over to do deals with us. We are a huge market for goods and services.

I do however accept that there will be short term problems if the EU doesn't play ball, but set against the Covid 19 virus costs we will barely perceive them.
 
Big Eye said:
I have no issue with decreasing our dependency on the vile CCP regime, even if there are short term costs involved...**** 'em. Companies like Samsung have already moved phone production out of China so alternatives are becoming more available.

As for the EU, it takes two to tango , it is they ,not the UK that is playing hard ball ...they are making demands that they wouldn't make of other countries for free trade deals. But I think that now many people in the UK are fully accepting of WTO rules with the EU...we need to move on.

It's also worth pointing out that there are massive trade imbalances with both China and the EU , in such a situation the UK has less to lose insofar as we can source our imports from elsewhere (eg Chilean wine rather than French, Japanese cars rather than German etc) . If we set out to increase imports from elsewhere ,non-EU countries will be bending over to do deals with us. We are a huge market for goods and services.

I do however accept that there will be short term problems if the EU doesn't play ball, but set against the Covid 19 virus costs we will barely perceive them.
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The UK is a mid level market

It will see exports drop, imports drop and should see inflation be higher than it other wise would be.

The UK is not all of a sudden become a strong exporter of goods, it is going to lose quite a bit of its financial industry which served the EU. The US does not need the UKs financial services, nor its agricultural goods ( specialty products excepted). Manufacturing is not going to work in the UK as Germany is better in Europe, the US is better in the Western Hemisphere, and SK, Japan and China far better in Asia. It does not have raw materials to sell like Canada or Australia.

It does not have a highly educated workforce that could make it a high tech Center

Overall the UK bet the farm on the financial industry, and it just shot that industry in the foot
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
The UK is a mid level market

It will see exports drop, imports drop and should see inflation be higher than it other wise would be.

The UK is not all of a sudden become a strong exporter of goods, it is going to lose quite a bit of its financial industry which served the EU. The US does not need the UKs financial services, nor its agricultural goods ( specialty products excepted). Manufacturing is not going to work in the UK as Germany is better in Europe, the US is better in the Western Hemisphere, and SK, Japan and China far better in Asia. It does not have raw materials to sell like Canada or Australia.

It does not have a highly educated workforce that could make it a high tech Center

Overall the UK bet the farm on the financial industry, and it just shot that industry in the foot
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You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

I forecast that Countries that are heavily export dependent in manufactured goods (like Germany, China and S Korea) are going to have a catastrophic couple of years ahead (who the ****'s going to buy cars for instance?), things will not be great here either but we are not so export dependent apart from in services (Banking , insurance etc) which there may well be a growing market for (People and businesses are looking for safe havens for their money and will still want insurance, the US banking system has had 2 trillion deposited since the start of this virus outbreak).

What goods we do manufacture tend to be of the highest quality ( military equipment...UK reclaims place as world's second largest arms exporter | Arms trade | The Guardian , High tech UK tech sector leads global growth in 2019 etc). The UK is also home to some of the world's leading brands from formula 1 racing teams to the Premiership football league.

The UK financial sector is huge but accounts for less than 10% of our GDP.

The UK has more leading Universities than the rest of Europe put together, also the population is generally well educated...The UK is the best country in the world for education, says study - Study International

**** me , I'm an English roofer and I'm keeping up with you...don't tell me you're a window cleaner....:lamo
 
"The pandemic is pushing governments and EU institutions towards even more top-down modes of governance. Democracy issues risk falling further down the union’s agenda. Just as the virus struck, most member states were already trying to curtail citizens’ influence over the Conference on the Future of Europe – a major two-year exercise designed to revamp the way the EU works."

Coronavirus: democracy is the missing link in EU recovery plans
 
Big Eye said:
You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

I forecast that Countries that are heavily export dependent in manufactured goods (like Germany, China and S Korea) are going to have a catastrophic couple of years ahead (who the ****'s going to buy cars for instance?), things will not be great here either but we are not so export dependent apart from in services (Banking , insurance etc) which there may well be a growing market for (People and businesses are looking for safe havens for their money and will still want insurance, the US banking system has had 2 trillion deposited since the start of this virus outbreak).

What goods we do manufacture tend to be of the highest quality ( military equipment...UK reclaims place as world's second largest arms exporter | Arms trade | The Guardian , High tech UK tech sector leads global growth in 2019 etc). The UK is also home to some of the world's leading brands from formula 1 racing teams to the Premiership football league.

The UK financial sector is huge but accounts for less than 10% of our GDP.

The UK has more leading Universities than the rest of Europe put together, also the population is generally well educated...The UK is the best country in the world for education, says study - Study International

**** me , I'm an English roofer and I'm keeping up with you...don't tell me you're a window cleaner....:lamo
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many of those big banks are Scottish like RBS, TSB .... RBS will have a choice to make break from it's ownership/merger with Natwest if it wants to remain part of the EU clearing house once rUK leaves RBS and those banks with no HQs in the EU will lose access to hundreds of billions in business ... the RBS will have to split it's business and then there is all those big oil HQs in London .... yet all the oil & gas is in Scotland and the will have to renegotiate new contracts as the contracts they have signed is for UK waters ... and to get there money back and there free extraction deals will be no more ... break even price for oil in North sea is $22 a barrel

and then there is the B/s about the big bad Britain lol Trump threatens Johnson/London with sanctions if they don't pull the plug on Huawei deal ..... que Boris Johnson kissing his master's boot like a loyal poodle London is .... no backbone

Big Eye said:
"The pandemic is pushing governments and EU institutions towards even more top-down modes of governance. Democracy issues risk falling further down the union’s agenda. Just as the virus struck, most member states were already trying to curtail citizens’ influence over the Conference on the Future of Europe – a major two-year exercise designed to revamp the way the EU works."

Coronavirus: democracy is the missing link in EU recovery plans
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the pandemic in the UK has all but certainly ended the UK even the Welsh parliament will debating a Welsh Independence referendum :)
 
The Welsh wouldn't dare go for independence.
It would mean the BBC would move production of Dr Who to England and then they'd be completely screwed as that'sabout 97% of their economy gone at a stroke.
 
Peter said:
The Welsh wouldn't dare go for independence.
It would mean the BBC would move production of Dr Who to England and then they'd be completely screwed as that'sabout 97% of their economy gone at a stroke.
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more p!sh from Englonde ... dealing with the pandemic has given them the confidence to go it alone ... they've seen how London has fared dealing with the pandemic
 
Peter said:
The Welsh wouldn't dare go for independence.
It would mean the BBC would move production of Dr Who to England and then they'd be completely screwed as that'sabout 97% of their economy gone at a stroke.
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And that's exactly the kind of Englisher guff which every day makes it more likely to occur.
 
I was joking but oh well.
 
Peter said:
I was joking but oh well.
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it's getting harder to tell these days after all the propaganda pYsh we have had to endure to belittle us so to keep the UK united .... sorry to say we haven't really been united since 1955 that was the start of the diversion for Scotland we started to see the London did not have our best interests at heart
 
Sven Karma said:
And that's exactly the kind of Englisher guff which every day makes it more likely to occur.
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There is literally no chance of Welsh independence because the Welsh overwhelmingly don't want it...which is amazing considering how popular the Labour party is in Wales and that Westminster is overwhelmingly Tory. So saying it is more likely to occur shows you know absolutely nothing about the UK situation.

"Given a range of options in a different question, no devolved government in Wales was supported by 22% (+5); the Senedd with fewer powers 5% (-3); leave things as they are now 24% (no change); Senedd with more powers: 20% (+2); an independent Wales 16% (+2)."

Quarter of voters in Wales now in favour of Welsh independence - Wales Online
 
I can never understand the process by which right-wing bigots and idiots like Nigel Farage and Nick Griffin somehow wind up representing large portions of the UK in the EU Parliament.
 
Peter said:
I didn't make any comment on this other than I voted to stay in the EU and that I haven't changed my mind.
The debate has been going on so long now I just want it to be over and everything has been argued to death.

My side lost and we're going to have to live with that and carry on. I'd be happy if I never hear the word Brexit ever again but that's not happening.
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Is it really that much hassle to have a second referendum, though?
 
Marrybore said:
Is it really that much hassle to have a second referendum, though?
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Is it really that much hassle to just not have a second referendum?
 
Godric1970 said:
many of those big banks are Scottish like RBS, TSB .... RBS will have a choice to make break from it's ownership/merger with Natwest if it wants to remain part of the EU clearing house once rUK leaves RBS and those banks with no HQs in the EU will lose access to hundreds of billions in business ... the RBS will have to split it's business and then there is all those big oil HQs in London .... yet all the oil & gas is in Scotland and the will have to renegotiate new contracts as the contracts they have signed is for UK waters ... and to get there money back and there free extraction deals will be no more ... break even price for oil in North sea is $22 a barrel

and then there is the B/s about the big bad Britain lol Trump threatens Johnson/London with sanctions if they don't pull the plug on Huawei deal ..... que Boris Johnson kissing his master's boot like a loyal poodle London is .... no backbone



the pandemic in the UK has all but certainly ended the UK even the Welsh parliament will debating a Welsh Independence referendum :)
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You keep bleating on about North Sea oil, it's 1% of the UK economy...and will almost certainly decline in importance...much of the cleaner gas reserves are in English waters too .It's like you jocks are dying to put all your eggs into one basket...probably because oil money makes Scottish independence seem a bit more financially balanced...but oil is an industry that is being priced out , even the Saudi's are looking to diversify their economy.

As for the banks , they are not loyal and will settle or move to wherever suits them...but London is always going to be on a different level of financial power than Edinburgh....and didn't the UK tax payer bail out RBS?

Royal Bank of Scotland bailout: 10 years and counting – House of Commons Library
 
Snazzy said:
Is it really that much hassle to just not have a second referendum?
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Well, looking back at the past five years I think the answer to that may be yes.
If the result of the second referendum is Remain, we can just forget all about Brexit - we can hardly keep on with it when the majority of Brits oppose it. If the result of the second referendum is Leave, I won't like it, but I think it'll quiet down those who moan constantly about the result of the very first referendum (like I do).
 
Marrybore said:
Is it really that much hassle to have a second referendum, though?
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You anti-democrats would never be satisfied unless you won. You lost get over it.

Any political party pushing for another EU referendum would be annihilated at the ensuing election...only a few morons want to go through that again...and funnily enough it always involves the tiny minority who can't accept the democratic outcome. Funny how the most pro-EU are also the least democratic...ties in nicely with the thread title .
 
Marrybore said:
Well, looking back at the past five years I think the answer to that may be yes.
If the result of the second referendum is Remain, we can just forget all about Brexit - we can hardly keep on with it when the majority of Brits oppose it. If the result of the second referendum is Leave, I won't like it, but I think it'll quiet down those who moan constantly about the result of the very first referendum (like I do).
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It probably wouldn't.

They'll be a demand for some kind of "Third Time Lucky" referendum.
 
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