The EU is post-democratic.

I thought I'd post this here as I put it on another thread and it's in danger of being lost . It was my response to PeteEU who accused me of having no idea what I was talking about with regard to the post democratic nature of the EU. I'd said that unelected commissars were basically setting the agenda that was then getting signed off by EU MPs...so unelected commissioners were deciding the direction of travel....anyway this was my response.

I think the EU relies on the gullibility/complicity of people like you for its survival. There are clear indications that the EU is a "Top down" political organisation. It is there so that the political/media caste can make rules and regulations without public support for those acts. I will give you a simple demonstration of this fact, if you can't address this point then you have lost the argument...

The EU morphed from the EEC without public consent. It went from being a "Economic Community" to a "Union", ie , it ceased pretending to be merely about creating an economic zone into being a super-national construct. Did the European people have any say in this process, did they want this to happen?

The problem is that the EU has a veneer of democracy...elected MPs (usually with tiny mandates in terms of voter turn out) basically rubber stamp regulation put forward by unelected EU Bureaucrats. Until the formation of UKIP/Brexit parties the type of MP that went on to serve in the EU (for the EU) was generally in favour of greater EU integration...so the integration process snowballed .

The following article is written from a left wing Brexit perspective, but gives a very astute description of the process...

"European integration is the expression of political elites withdrawing from political accountability towards their own citizens (vertical accountability) and becoming more accountable to one another (horizontal accountability). This has vastly eroded popular sovereignty and democracy, allowing political elites to “lock in” policies that reflect sectional interests and do not command popular support."


The EU's Democratic Deficit | The Full Brexit

The EU is run by the German financial sector. It is no secret that Germany has made out like bandits raiding their neighbors' wealth.

Drawdown said:

The EU is run by the German financial sector. It is no secret that Germany has made out like bandits raiding their neighbors' wealth.

Click to expand...

I agree insofar as the Euro has enabled poorer countries within the Euro zone to borrow cheap money to buy German products. Had Germany kept the DM I think they'd be pretty much broke by now.

Did you read the link above ? It has made me re-evaluate how the EU operates...it does so in a post-democratic fashion but differently to how I thought. I found it interesting anyway.

Big Eye said:

I thought I'd post this here as I put it on another thread and it's in danger of being lost . It was my response to PeteEU who accused me of having no idea what I was talking about with regard to the post democratic nature of the EU. I'd said that unelected commissars were basically setting the agenda that was then getting signed off by EU MPs...so unelected commissioners were deciding the direction of travel....anyway this was my response.

I think the EU relies on the gullibility/complicity of people like you for its survival. There are clear indications that the EU is a "Top down" political organisation. It is there so that the political/media caste can make rules and regulations without public support for those acts. I will give you a simple demonstration of this fact, if you can't address this point then you have lost the argument...

The EU morphed from the EEC without public consent. It went from being a "Economic Community" to a "Union", ie , it ceased pretending to be merely about creating an economic zone into being a super-national construct. Did the European people have any say in this process, did they want this to happen?

The problem is that the EU has a veneer of democracy...elected MPs (usually with tiny mandates in terms of voter turn out) basically rubber stamp regulation put forward by unelected EU Bureaucrats. Until the formation of UKIP/Brexit parties the type of MP that went on to serve in the EU (for the EU) was generally in favour of greater EU integration...so the integration process snowballed .

The following article is written from a left wing Brexit perspective, but gives a very astute description of the process...

"European integration is the expression of political elites withdrawing from political accountability towards their own citizens (vertical accountability) and becoming more accountable to one another (horizontal accountability). This has vastly eroded popular sovereignty and democracy, allowing political elites to “lock in” policies that reflect sectional interests and do not command popular support."


The EU's Democratic Deficit | The Full Brexit

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pot calling the kettle black methinks be more worried about the direction and unity of the UK is going

Godric1970 said:

pot calling the kettle black methinks be more worried about the direction and unity of the UK is going

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I agree, as per the article that I linked to , that our own democratic process can become diluted by politicians that do not put the concerns of the population first (politicians setting the agenda rather than the people)..but the last thing we need is another tier of politicians already doing it on a bigger scale (the EU).

Big Eye said:

I thought I'd post this here as I put it on another thread and it's in danger of being lost . It was my response to PeteEU who accused me of having no idea what I was talking about with regard to the post democratic nature of the EU. I'd said that unelected commissars were basically setting the agenda that was then getting signed off by EU MPs...so unelected commissioners were deciding the direction of travel....anyway this was my response.

Click to expand...

They are called commissioners... and they are not setting the agenda. You clearly have zero clue on the structure of the EU and what the commission actually does.

I think the EU relies on the gullibility/complicity of people like you for its survival. There are clear indications that the EU is a "Top down" political organisation. It is there so that the political/media caste can make rules and regulations without public support for those acts. I will give you a simple demonstration of this fact, if you can't address this point then you have lost the argument...

Click to expand...

Top down? LOL. Thats coming from a Brit, whos government did not even inform the local government in Leciater that there was a massive breakout of Covid-19. A country where everything is run out of London, including all funding. Local mayors, if there are any in the first place, have absolutely little power to influence things.

The EU has an important principle that it as much should done at the local level as possible. That is why, when asking for EU funds, places like Wales and Scotland did not have to go through London... a place that usually refused funding. This is of course why Conservatives dont like the EU, because it by passes their power and influence and let places like Cardiff get funding for much needed infrastructure projects..

The EU morphed from the EEC without public consent.

Click to expand...

Bull****. Not the fault of the EU, that your moronic system does not allow for referendums. There were several countries who had referendums according to national law.

It went from being a "Economic Community" to a "Union", ie , it ceased pretending to be merely about creating an economic zone into being a super-national construct. Did the European people have any say in this process, did they want this to happen?

Click to expand...

For the love of god, go read the Treaty of Rome. All the basic principles of the EEC/EU are stated there.. in a document that was written over 60 years ago. Read Article 1 to 3... its hardly been a secret.

The problem is that the EU has a veneer of democracy...elected MPs (usually with tiny mandates in terms of voter turn out) basically rubber stamp regulation put forward by unelected EU Bureaucrats.

Click to expand...

As I have said, wrong. You dont know what the **** you are talking about.

Until the formation of UKIP/Brexit parties the type of MP that went on to serve in the EU (for the EU) was generally in favour of greater EU integration...so the integration process snowballed .

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Again bull****. UKIP is a new party and a disgrace among the anti-EEC/EU parties that started already in the 1970s. Ironically, most of the original anti-EEC parties were based on the left.. but when morons like Farage could not make it in national politics, he then saw a meal ticket by becoming an anti-EU politician, all in the while marrying a German and having half breed children.. not exactly a positive for most of his supporters..

The following article is written from a left wing Brexit perspective, but gives a very astute description of the process...

"European integration is the expression of political elites withdrawing from political accountability towards their own citizens (vertical accountability) and becoming more accountable to one another (horizontal accountability). This has vastly eroded popular sovereignty and democracy, allowing political elites to “lock in” policies that reflect sectional interests and do not command popular support."


The EU's Democratic Deficit | The Full Brexit

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A horse**** article with no basis in reality. The hilarity of the article coming from a bunch of Brits who have an un-elected upper house, and a government sitting on 56% of the seats in Parliament, but only having had 43% of the votes. Talk about a democratic deficit.

To PeteEU


It's almost as if you didn't read the article I linked to because your diatribe is a pile of unrelated horse manure .

The article is correct in stating that elected MPs (often elected by a very small percentage) are using the EU parliament to push through an agenda that is formed by MPs rather than coming from the general population. As the article points out this has also been happening at a national level (as an example Theresa May was trying to form a relationship with the EU that literally no one wanted) and that is why there is/has been a disconnect between people and the politicians who are supposed to represent them.You write about the "structure" of the EU as if that proves the points wrong , when it is clear to everyone that a disconnect has formed between the electors and the elected...if you don't see this I'd suggest that you are also disconnected from reality.

Politicians are generally not trusted ,that basically proves the point.

The EU is clearly a top down organisation (which I notice you haven't denied), to then divert attention by saying the UK government is top down too completely misses the point...having two top down political organisations inflicting their unaccountable regulations on us is clearly worse than having one that we get get rid of at the next election. Now we are becoming free of the EU the British government becomes directly accountable to the people so Brexit is good on both counts (we lose the overbearing EU and the UK government becomes more accountable).

All your bull**** about the EU liking things to be done at a local level is a complete joke...the UK tax payer gives the EU billions then the EU lets local government in the UK have a little bit back...and that's supposed to be a good deal for us! No wonder the EU never gets its accounts signed off, **** me.

You know that the EEC morphed into the EU, you know the implication is that the EU seeks to become a federal entity, you know that UK citizens had no say in this. If the UK government failed to give its people a referendum that just proves the point of the article...if MPs at a national level generally want a European State then they will connive with the EU to allow that to develop. This is not rocket science.

What makes me laugh about people like you is that you think you can point to some declaration (The Treaty of Rome for instance) and say with all conviction, "look, it's all in here", like some declaration can't be changed or ignored at some point.

You EU fanatics are so obsessed with your empire building that you can't see that the whole thing is unravelling as people gain knowledge of how deceitful the whole project actually is.

Just out of interest are you Danish or British? It's just that the most fanatical EU zealots tend to be Brits who have lost their dreams of Empire and can't accept their loss.

Big Eye said:

~ It was my response to PeteEU who accused me of having no idea what I was talking about with regard to the post democratic nature of the EU. ~

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It's true - very often you have no clue what you're pontificating about.

Big Eye said:

~ The EU morphed from the EEC without public consent.

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Stupid comment and it proves that you don't know what you're talking about. The Treaty of Rome set out exactly what was being planned and they have been working towards that ever since. Most Europeans know exactly what the EEC / EU is about and their governments have never lied to their citizens about it. If you want to blame anyone - blame Ted Heath for lying to the UK population because it was always clear what the EU / EEC was aiming for.

Big Eye said:

~ What makes me laugh about people like you is that you think you can point to some declaration (The Treaty of Rome for instance) and say with all conviction, "look, it's all in here", like some declaration can't be changed or ignored at some point ~

Click to expand...

1) You never read Marx.

2) You haven't looked at the Treaty of Rome

3) You have no idea about who owns UK fishing quotas

4) You blamed coronavirus spike in Leicester on BLM / "multiculturalism"

Basically, you know f**k all about anything.

Glad I've been busy with homeschooling my kids to miss all these pearls of wisdom.

Big Eye said:

I agree, as per the article that I linked to , that our own democratic process can become diluted by politicians that do not put the concerns of the population first (politicians setting the agenda rather than the people)..but the last thing we need is another tier of politicians already doing it on a bigger scale (the EU).

Click to expand...

we believe in working with others hence such support for the EU .... the UK has failed to listen to Scotland for 80 years or more and just ignores and demean us then have the temerity to claim they don't understand the demand and support for the Independence movement ... we have our own separate Gàidhlig culture going back over 1500 years in Scotland which London has been trying eradicate and rewrite our history and replace it with a English/British history

Infinite Chaos said:

It's true - very often you have no clue what you're pontificating about.



Stupid comment and it proves that you don't know what you're talking about. The Treaty of Rome set out exactly what was being planned and they have been working towards that ever since. Most Europeans know exactly what the EEC / EU is about and their governments have never lied to their citizens about it. If you want to blame anyone - blame Ted Heath for lying to the UK population because it was always clear what the EU / EEC was aiming for.



1) You never read Marx.

2) You haven't looked at the Treaty of Rome

3) You have no idea about who owns UK fishing quotas

4) You blamed coronavirus spike in Leicester on BLM / "multiculturalism"

Basically, you know f**k all about anything.

Glad I've been busy with homeschooling my kids to miss all these pearls of wisdom.

Click to expand...

To be honest I have come to the conclusion that there is nothing to be gained from interacting with you. I know that you think you're intelligent but you get yourself bang at it, I think your IQ is on the very average side of normal . All you do is swipe at me rather than address the points, because that's all you've got. Literally everything you say is wrong...and I feel sorry about your kid's education.:lamo

Oh and by the way, every man and his dog (except you) knows that the UK's citizens were misled about the EEC and where it was going , we wouldn't have joined if the truth was known. It is invariably the anti-democratic scum within the UK that lied to us in the first place and has sought to keep us bound to the EU even after we voted to leave...filthy ,vile , scum.

PeteEU said:

They are called commissioners... and they are not setting the agenda. You clearly have zero clue on the structure of the EU and what the commission actually does.



Top down? LOL. Thats coming from a Brit, whos government did not even inform the local government in Leciater that there was a massive breakout of Covid-19. A country where everything is run out of London, including all funding. Local mayors, if there are any in the first place, have absolutely little power to influence things.

The EU has an important principle that it as much should done at the local level as possible. That is why, when asking for EU funds, places like Wales and Scotland did not have to go through London... a place that usually refused funding. This is of course why Conservatives dont like the EU, because it by passes their power and influence and let places like Cardiff get funding for much needed infrastructure projects..



Bull****. Not the fault of the EU, that your moronic system does not allow for referendums. There were several countries who had referendums according to national law.



For the love of god, go read the Treaty of Rome. All the basic principles of the EEC/EU are stated there.. in a document that was written over 60 years ago. Read Article 1 to 3... its hardly been a secret.



As I have said, wrong. You dont know what the **** you are talking about.



Again bull****. UKIP is a new party and a disgrace among the anti-EEC/EU parties that started already in the 1970s. Ironically, most of the original anti-EEC parties were based on the left.. but when morons like Farage could not make it in national politics, he then saw a meal ticket by becoming an anti-EU politician, all in the while marrying a German and having half breed children.. not exactly a positive for most of his supporters..



A horse**** article with no basis in reality. The hilarity of the article coming from a bunch of Brits who have an un-elected upper house, and a government sitting on 56% of the seats in Parliament, but only having had 43% of the votes. Talk about a democratic deficit.

Click to expand...

Something I'm seeing come up yet again in this thread reminds me of all the pro-Brexit propaganda, which ALWAYS came down to two beliefs:

(1) The EU sucks, or
(2) Migrant workers suck.

That's it. I have literally never heard any other argument from a Brexiteer that did not boil down to one of those two things.

Godric1970 said:

we believe in working with others hence such support for the EU .... the UK has failed to listen to Scotland for 80 years or more and just ignores and demean us then have the temerity to claim they don't understand the demand and support for the Independence movement ... we have our own separate Gàidhlig culture going back over 1500 years in Scotland which London has been trying eradicate and rewrite our history and replace it with a English/British history

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I don't believe that at all. You have devolution, you are over represented at Westminster, you benefit from the UK tax system How the Barnett formula is 'flawed' in favour of Scotland and Northern Ireland - Full Fact. No one is trying to erase your culture because no one other than a few weirdos cares about it...in the same way you don't care about my culture which has had mass immigration/multiculturalism inflicted on it to a much higher degree than yours has had to suffer. Stop playing the victim, as lefties are prone to do...

Phys251 said:

Something I'm seeing come up yet again in this thread reminds me of all the pro-Brexit propaganda, which ALWAYS came down to two beliefs:

(1) The EU sucks, or
(2) Migrant workers suck.

That's it. I have literally never heard any other argument from a Brexiteer that did not boil down to one of those two things.

Click to expand...

I'd say virtually everyone I know who wanted Brexit (probably 3/4s of people I know) wanted it because they had a sense that the EU wasn't working as a democracy should and so decided that this country should run its own affairs in a proper democratic way...that's it, what's your problem with that? As for immigration it certainly needs to be controlled (look at our population density) , but most people know that immigration will always carry on , except now we will be open to other races, not just Europeans.

My neighbours are Romanian and we get along fine , so let's not have any of the "Racist" bull**** you lefties are prone to throw around.

Here it comes:

Big Eye said:

I'd say virtually everyone I know who wanted Brexit (probably 3/4s of people I know) wanted it because they had a sense that the EU wasn't working as a democracy

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"(1) The EU sucks."

should and so decided that this country should run its own affairs in a proper democratic way...that's it, what's your problem with that? As for immigration it certainly needs to be controlled (look at our population density) ,

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"(2) Migrant workers suck."

Congratulations, you just made my point for me. :thumbs:

but most people know that immigration will always carry on , except now we will be open to other races, not just Europeans.

My neighbours are Romanian and we get along fine , so let's not have any of the "Racist" bull**** you lefties are prone to throw around.

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Who said anything about what race the migrants were? You did.

Phys251 said:

Here it comes:



"(1) The EU sucks."



"(2) Migrant workers suck."

Congratulations, you just made my point for me. :thumbs:



Who said anything about what race the migrants were? You did.

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Nowhere did I say migrant workers "suck"...you're not the sharpest tool in the box are you...but lying takes you to an even lower point.

Big Eye said:

I don't believe that at all. You have devolution, you are over represented at Westminster, you benefit from the UK tax system How the Barnett formula is 'flawed' in favour of Scotland and Northern Ireland - Full Fact. No one is trying to erase your culture because no one other than a few weirdos cares about it...in the same way you don't care about my culture which has had mass immigration/multiculturalism inflicted on it to a much higher degree than yours has had to suffer. Stop playing the victim, as lefties are prone to do...

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Barnett formula don't make me laugh we send down £65 billion in taxes and receive £31 billion back including Barnett consequentials Englonde is the country that is subsidised by Scotland Cameron refused to give Scotland full control of our economy citing out would be a threat to the union 3 months later he offer n Ireland the opportunity to run it's entire economy ... hence the unionists are desperate to keep Scotland int he UK ... and everything you disagree with you call them lefties or commies or both ... if you knew anything about economics and capitalism it was a Scot Adam Smith who is considered the father of both Modern economics and the Capitalist system and the Scottish government is neither lefty or communists it's centrists party ... and when Englonde is not a energy basket case only then can you criticise Scotland .... and before long we will have no representation at Westmonster because we will not be part of the rUK system

Godric1970 said:

Barnett formula don't make me laugh we send down £65 billion in taxes and receive £31 billion back including Barnett consequentials Englonde is the country that is subsidised by Scotland Cameron refused to give Scotland full control of our economy citing out would be a threat to the union 3 months later he offer n Ireland the opportunity to run it's entire economy ... hence the unionists are desperate to keep Scotland int he UK ... and everything you disagree with you call them lefties or commies or both ... if you knew anything about economics and capitalism it was a Scot Adam Smith who is considered the father of both Modern economics and the Capitalist system and the Scottish government is neither lefty or communists it's centrists party ... and when Englonde is not a energy basket case only then can you criticise Scotland .... and before long we will have no representation at Westmonster because we will not be part of the rUK system

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The SNP is a social democratic party.

Sturgeon: The SNP is a social democracy model which is under threat across the world | Press and Journal

Social democracy means... "Social democracy is defined as one of many socialist traditions.[1] As a political movement, it aims to achieve socialism through gradual and democratic means."

Social democracy - Wikipedia

So I'm clearly correct when I define the SNP as lefties.

As for everything else that you shat out of your keyboard...I know of no English people ( and I know quite a few lol) who cares whether Scotland leaves the UK to become German dependent...blame the Scots who voted to remain in 2014 (the ones who you seem to think don't exist). If I were Scottish (thank God I'm not!) I would think it absolute insanity to leave a country to which we have been bound (by road and rail without border controls ) for 300 years, a country (The rUK) which buys most of our exports, supplies most of our tourists and pays for our kids to have free university education.

Oh, and the English created Buckfast , your national staple....don't bother thanking me lol.

Big Eye said:

To PeteEU

The article is correct in stating that elected MPs (often elected by a very small percentage) are using the EU parliament to push through an agenda that is formed by MPs rather than coming from the general population.

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LOL so you are saying that any parliamentary puts forward legislation based on the wishes of the general population? What fantasy world do you live in? An no one "pushes through" an agenda in the EU, unless of course you are part of the anti-EU racist fringe, then everything is "pushed through".

As the article points out this has also been happening at a national level (as an example Theresa May was trying to form a relationship with the EU that literally no one wanted) and that is why there is/has been a disconnect between people and the politicians who are supposed to represent them.

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Wait.. no one wanted? How do you know this? was it put to a referendum? No. So in fact, May and now Boris is "pushing through" things that no one wanted... the very thing you accuse the EU off? At least the EU parliament power is based on a majority of VOTES.. unlike the British parliament.

You write about the "structure" of the EU as if that proves the points wrong , when it is clear to everyone that a disconnect has formed between the electors and the elected...if you don't see this I'd suggest that you are also disconnected from reality.

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Eh? What on earth are you talking about? Are you saying that the ELECTED representatives of countries are disconnected from the electorate?

Politicians are generally not trusted ,that basically proves the point.

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Well that is up for debate. Far right wingers dont trust anyone that does not meet their very narrow racist beliefs, that is for sure, but most people are not far right wingers.

The EU is clearly a top down organisation (which I notice you haven't denied), to then divert attention by saying the UK government is top down too completely misses the point...having two top down political organisations inflicting their unaccountable regulations on us is clearly worse than having one that we get get rid of at the next election. Now we are becoming free of the EU the British government becomes directly accountable to the people so Brexit is good on both counts (we lose the overbearing EU and the UK government becomes more accountable).

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So comparing the EU to UK is not denying it? The British government directly accountable? HAHAHAHAH.. **** no. You have a fixed time Parliament that is the total opposite of accountability. Boris can do whatever he wants the next 4 years as long as he can keep his own people in line. **** the population.. There is zero accountability in the UK as it is closer to a dictatorship than a democracy. The very fact that you think that the EU, with elected officials at all decision levels is undemocratic, when you come from a country with an un-elected upper house...

All your bull**** about the EU liking things to be done at a local level is a complete joke...the UK tax payer gives the EU billions then the EU lets local government in the UK have a little bit back...and that's supposed to be a good deal for us! No wonder the EU never gets its accounts signed off, **** me.

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Thank you again for showing your total lack of knowledge. When Cardiff gets money from the EU for a project..who sends in the application for said project.. Cardiff or the UK government?

You know that the EEC morphed into the EU, you know the implication is that the EU seeks to become a federal entity,... /QUOTE]

More baseless paranoia and falsehoods.

What makes me laugh about people like you is that you think you can point to some declaration (The Treaty of Rome for instance) and say with all conviction, "look, it's all in here", like some declaration can't be changed or ignored at some point.

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LOL now that shows how undemocratic you are. The Treaty of Rome is the legal basis for you joining the EEC in 1973. You voted on it.. and accepted it

You EU fanatics are so obsessed with your empire building that you can't see that the whole thing is unravelling as people gain knowledge of how deceitful the whole project actually is.

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I am no EU fanatic. The EU has its flaws, but I am a pragmatist that accepts it is better to be part of a big organisation like the EU, than a small island in the middle of no where with no friends. If you want to be bullied by the US, China and now the EU.. by all means be that island, but dont think for a second that you have any control over your legal or economic system. You are fully dependent on the big boys. Your country is now no more important than Argentina....

Just out of interest are you Danish or British?

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Danish and proud to be so.

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Big Eye said:

...
Oh and by the way, every man and his dog (except you) knows that the UK's citizens were misled about the EEC and where it was going , we wouldn't have joined if the truth was known. It is invariably the anti-democratic scum within the UK that lied to us in the first place and has sought to keep us bound to the EU even after we voted to leave...filthy ,vile , scum.

Click to expand...

Cool story bruh

All I will add to this discussion is that I voted to stay in the EU and I still believe we should do so.

Drawdown said:

The EU is run by the German financial sector. It is no secret that Germany has made out like bandits raiding their neighbors' wealth.

Click to expand...

How has Germany raided other countries wealth?

Has it forced other countries to buy its goods or services? Has it forced loans on them? Has it invaded or bombed them if they did not do what Germany wants? Has it threatened boycotts on them?

Germany is well run, with efficient companies that produce items that are in demand. It's government does not spend money it does not have, and the German people tend to save more than they spend. There is nothing that is preventing any other European country from doing what Germany is doing, other than poor decision making by the governments and people

Not to mention, London’s financial power was and currently likely still is far larger and powerful than the German financial industry. Heck Germany’s largest bank is one of the worst run world wide banks

This a a response to peteEU,

Parliaments may not put forward legislation based on what people want, but then the population can easily vote against the government at the next election. It's a lot harder (for say the British people) to get rid of the dominant force in the EU parliament if it is lead by groups of politicians that the British public sense do not have their best interests at heart. It is also the case that the EU may well pass legislation that most British people would be totally against (for instance on Federalisation , an EU army etc). It comes down to the simple fact that people are better represented by their own government than one that is dominated by virtually unaccountable (to the British public) foreigners.

Theresa May's deal was seen as a complete joke ...even people that voted to stay in the EU said that we'd just as well stay in with the present deal than leave and obey all the rules. If you can't see how unpopular such a deal would be to both sides of the Brexit divide then I'd suggest you don't understand the British people.

The first past the post system is not perfect (I know because in such a system it's a waste of time me voting for the Brexit Party)...however it does mean that the winning party gets to take responsibility for its results...there is less chance of weak coalition governments. It's also the case in the UK that the SNP and Labour are over represented in Westminster ( the constituency boundaries work in their favour), but even in such a situation the Conservative party wins...the English are naturally conservative in outlook and since the Labour party abandoned the working class they are more likely to vote Conservative than Labour now.

Of course the MEPs from the UK were disconnected from the general population...EU elections had very small turn outs until the Brexit party came along.It is the case that politicians are not trusted in the UK, maybe it's different in Denmark but over here there is a healthy distrust. I voted for Boris at the last election but I certainly don't trust him until he does what he said he'd do...for instance a clean break from the EU.

Fixed term parliaments do have problems (which we saw when the Labour/SNP/Lib Dems kept the conservative government in power whilst forcing it through its lack of a majority to do their bidding. That was an affront to democracy and shows what Social Democratic parties really are. Provided laws are put in place to stop that recurring I'm not against fixed terms per se...I like the idea of a Government having space to enact its agenda rather than toing and throwing between different parties.

The idea that giving billions of pounds to the EU only to receive a small percentage back as grants is beneficial really goes some way in displaying the insanity of the economic thinking behind the EU.

Saying we are just a small island in the middle of nowhere with no friends is a pathetic slur coming from someone who lives in ****ing Denmark...a short boat trip or flight away lol. Britain is more widely respected and has far more influence than Denmark mate, you'll have to just take that on the chin. Even within the EU Denmark is not very important or influential...you belong to Germany now lol.:lamo At least you admit that as a "pragmatist" you accept that you must be a small part of the GERMAN/franco empire...good luck with that! Personally I'd rather be "dependent" on the world outside the EU than the ****ed up ,deluded one within it.

How can you be a proud Dane when you want Denmark's border to dissolve...I don't think you've thought it through lol.

By the way , Britain will get decent trade deals ...in many ways the EU has been holding us back.

Lord Tammerlain said:

How has Germany raided other countries wealth?

Has it forced other countries to buy its goods or services? Has it forced loans on them? Has it invaded or bombed them if they did not do what Germany wants? Has it threatened boycotts on them?

Germany is well run, with efficient companies that produce items that are in demand. It's government does not spend money it does not have, and the German people tend to save more than they spend. There is nothing that is preventing any other European country from doing what Germany is doing, other than poor decision making by the governments and people

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Poorer countries within the Euro zone (rules were ignored to allow them to join) were able to borrow cheap money because of their membership. Much of that cheap money was spent on German goods and services that would have been too expensive had the DM still existed. So basically the Euro has enabled a German boom at the expense of countries that may never pay back their debt. No one forced these countries to borrow though but short term politicians and other scammers ain't thinking about the long term.

Big Eye said:

Poorer countries within the Euro zone (rules were ignored to allow them to join) were able to borrow cheap money because of their membership. Much of that cheap money was spent on German goods and services that would have been too expensive had the DM still existed. So basically the Euro has enabled a German boom at the expense of countries that may never pay back their debt. No one forced these countries to borrow though but short term politicians and other scammers ain't thinking about the long term.

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If the countries never repay their debt and default that would of course hurt Germany would it not?

The issue is not with Germany but poor leadership of other countries