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German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end? [W:539]

Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

He never weaponized it against Germany. It would be madness. Germany is Russia biggest and richest customer. He would lose 45% of russias income and that foreber. Even during most bad relations at cold war, USSR never stopped gas delivery to West Germany.


Germany can switch to others but Russia would have no other main customer because the fix pipeline system.

And above all that is the very fact, that we now have no other option that to complete the pipeline. We cant allow a foreign power try to push their agenda on us.

If Russia stops shipment in the dead of winter, who would you switch to? And how long would it take?

How many Germans would die waiting for the new supply to come online?

These are some of the consequences you'll face if you decide to put your fate in Putin's hands.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

Nordstream-2 does in fact make Germany susceptible to Kremlin geopolitical blackmail.

Putin recently used the oil/gas weapon against Belarus ... an ally. He won't hesitate to use it against the West either.
You can't compare Belarus' position to that of Germany. If Putin were to stupidly cut Germany off (and into his own foot in the process), it has plenty of other options that Belarus doesn't.

In addition to which Russian gas plays a far lesser role in Germany's energy balance than the current US administration is trying to make believe. Gas overall currently takes up some 25 pct of total consumption and even where that sector is expected to rise, Russia shares into it with about 40 pct. IOW not even an eighth.

With all that said, as I repeatedly stated in the past, I opposed the whole Nordstream venture from the outset. Not because of the supposed dependence that the usual cross-pond idiots keep harping about (those that do), but because I oppose benefiting Putin's mafia in any way.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

If Russia stops shipment in the dead of winter, who would you switch to? And how long would it take?

How many Germans would die waiting for the new supply to come online?.............~
none.

The concept of Germany crumbling if Russia closes the valves is a myth.

see post # 27.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

Lol yeah, Germany should definitely team up with KGB Vlad. Nobody would ever listen to you lot lecture anyone on “human rights” again, but hey, if you think the guy running death squads is so “friendly”, go for it :roll:

USA runs death squads as well. Or did Osama fall down some stairs? How about the illegal drone attacks ect?

We dont team up with Russia. We do trade and right now we see them as more reliable as USA. Its not Putin who tries to blackmail us, thats USA.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

If Russia stops shipment in the dead of winter, who would you switch to? And how long would it take?

How many Germans would die waiting for the new supply to come online?

These are some of the consequences you'll face if you decide to put your fate in Putin's hands.

We dont need to switch, we have gargantuan storage capacity. So when Russia switchs us off in mid winter, we have 7 months reserves in storage. More than enough time to buy elsewhere.

But lets turn this. Lets say we dont build the pipeline. What do we do when Trump breaks the contract and stops delivery in mid winter, to force us to accept a bad trade deal for example? In that case we could not switch supplier that easily, because no pipeline would exist.

So from our point of view its good to have both. Pipeline and LNG terminals. That way we dont have to put our fate in Putins or Trumps hands. At least Putin admires Germany and doesnt constantly insult us, like Trump does.

Trump is incredible erratic. How can we trust someone who constantly threatens allies, breaks contracts?

Thats the german compromise, we build LNG terminals and USA can offer its product on our market.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

USA runs death squads as well. Or did Osama fall down some stairs? How about the illegal drone attacks ect?

We dont team up with Russia. We do trade and right now we see them as more reliable as USA. Its not Putin who tries to blackmail us, thats USA.

Osama was an enemy combatant responsible for thousand of killings, not a journalist who criticized the United States(like, you know, a lot of the people who Putin has had killed have been) and it’s extremely telling that you would try and equate the two.

“Blackmail you” by pointing out that gee, putting your energy needs in the hands of a KGB thug with no hesitancy about squeezing is probably not the best idea.

But I get it. Germans think anti- Americanism is more important than upholding the principles they supposedly follow. That’s nothing new from Europeans.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

Lol yeah, Germany should definitely team up with KGB Vlad. Nobody would ever listen to you lot lecture anyone on “human rights” again, but hey, if you think the guy running death squads is so “friendly”, go for it :roll:

The US never really ran death squads, it just trained them and set them loose (SOA)
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

The US never really ran death squads, it just trained them and set them loose (SOA)

So in other words the US did what isolationists wanted and let the people of those countries carry out their own affairs.

The affair was the murder of civilians, but hey, the US isn’t supposed to “meddle” :roll:

It’s also rather hypocritical for a PRC apologist to try and weigh in on the subject.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

Osama was an enemy combatant responsible for thousand of killings, not a journalist who criticized the United States(like, you know, a lot of the people who Putin has had killed have been) and it’s extremely telling that you would try and equate the two.

“Blackmail you” by pointing out that gee, putting your energy needs in the hands of a KGB thug with no hesitancy about squeezing is probably not the best idea.

But I get it. Germans think anti- Americanism is more important than upholding the principles they supposedly follow. That’s nothing new from Europeans.



No, you can tell us all what you think about our energy projects. What doesnt work is to sanction us for our internal energy projects. Im sure you agree.

I mean whats so hard to understand that we cant allow a foreign power trying to dictate us our politics?

And as for principles you follow, tell me why exactly is USA still friends with Saudi Arabia?
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

The German - America relations are now at an absolute low and it will be interesting how things can return to normal.

Until 4 years ago Germany was US closest ally. As 2nd most powerful nation of the western block, the german american alliance was seen as crucial to solve many world conflicts and problems.

Since Trump this changed completly. The pipeline project Nordstream II now brings it into a formerly unknown level of hostility.

USA was the pipeline, which is completed by 97% to stop. USA claims it would make Germany dependend on russian gas. Which is not true, since Germany still would have evry option to buy from elswhere.

The fact is, USA wants to sell american LNG to Germany, which is 30% more expensive, must be liquified before transport with enormous energy consumption, shipped over the atlantic and needs also enormous energy consumption to be stored in Germany in special tanks. Getting gas from Russia through a pipeline is simply more cost effective and efficient.

Another factor is, that Germany doesnt really want depend on energy that could be cut off from Trump in his typical erratic behavior. In other words, USA under Trump are not seen as trustworthy enough to fullfill treaty obligations.

The biggest issue is, that it is absolute unacceptable for Germany to allow USA to hurt German freedom and souvereignity. It simply is not americas business with whome Germany makes energy deals with.

USA put sanctions against a swiss ship company that laid the pipes on the sea floor, which blocked finalisation of the construction. A russian ship now arrived here to complete the project and USA threatens now more sanctions, this time targeting even german officials and evry company involved in the project and it appears this threat was what crossed the red line.

Germany prepares to install the EU wide blocking statute, which means companies are banned to follow the american laws on European soil. On the same time Germany prepares EU counter sanctions to any american officials involved in this sanctions. This means US senators would be locked out of global payment systems, their assets frozen.

It is crucial for Germany to draw this red line, because if we follow through and bow the knee, we would be simply an american vasall. If you bend to blackmail once, you will be the eternal victim.

The strange effect this has in Germany is, that all parties, even the Greens unite behind the decission to completle the pipeline, no matter what. There was strong internal oppossition in the German government against the project. American blackmailing
changed that, since all parties from far right AfD to far left Die Linke unite behind it against an outside foe.

If you dont know it better you could think there are elements in the american government who follow Putins will.

The interesting thing is, how this will end. Because on this level its now a game of chicken. Germany can not stop the pipeline without losing face. So what we will most likely will see is a complete breakdown of relations or omehow both nations find a backdoor agreement, that the pipeline is completed and there will be solutions on other fields of disagreements.

Americanswho justify this entire thing i might remember one thing, would you accept that behavior yourself? if a foreign power tries to intervene in your internal matters? if you answer this with a no, then you know what your side should be.

Germany is not the USA's closest ally, or is the USA to Germany.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

No, you can tell us all what you think about our energy projects. What doesnt work is to sanction us for our internal energy projects. Im sure you agree.

I mean whats so hard to understand that we cant allow a foreign power trying to dictate us our politics?

And as for principles you follow, tell me why exactly is USA still friends with Saudi Arabia?

.....You do realize that’s the exact same logic used by every regime which commits human rights abuses, right? “How dare those meddling Westerners sanction us over what we do to our own people\ethnic group X!” Internal politics stop being internal when they affect the outside world. It’s not 1800 anymore.

It’s really not that hard to figure out. The US doesn’t want a NATO member dependent in any way on an aggressive foreign adversary which, again, runs death squads.

And when it comes to Saudi Arabia, “friends”....isn’t really the right word. That’s another Cold War relic that’s going to die out sooner versus later.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

You seriously compare Belarusia with Germany? I have a hint for you. The city of Kassel alone has a higher GDP than Belarusia.

Again, the risk management and decissionmaking about german energy projects is done in Berlin, not Washington. As for the devil, right now as USA turns from ally to enemy, here in Germany we dont know who the devil is.

Right now we see USA as a bigger threat.

Germans say Russia is more reliable than the United States | News | DW | 09.12.2017

Germans say Russia is more reliable than the United States
A new survey published by German public broadcaster ARD shows Germans trust Russia more than the US. America's brand appears to have suffered considerably since the election of Donald Trump as US president last year.

From our point of view it might be time for readjusting foreign politics regarding foes and friends.

You may have missed the part where I stated you can dance with the devil if you so choose....

Or is this simply anti-US rant thread?

If so you need to work on your presentation.

Radio Beijing, Radio Moscow and even Radio Havana had better presentations.

I put you at Radio Pyongyang level.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

.....You do realize that’s the exact same logic used by every regime which commits human rights abuses, right? “How dare those meddling Westerners sanction us over what we do to our own people\ethnic group X!” Internal politics stop being internal when they affect the outside world. It’s not 1800 anymore.

It’s really not that hard to figure out. The US doesn’t want a NATO member dependent in any way on an aggressive foreign adversary which, again, runs death squads.

And when it comes to Saudi Arabia, “friends”....isn’t really the right word. That’s another Cold War relic that’s going to die out sooner versus later.

Thats nice that USA doesnt want that. Too bad thats not the case. Germany wont be dependend and energy politics of Germany are decided in Berlin. The moment USA sanctions our internal decissions would be a hostile act and would leave us no other option than striking back. That former alliance would be automaticly at an end then.

There are two who can play that game. UsA sells F 35 to Saudi Arabia. Germany doesnt want that. We have developed a radar system that can detect F 35. What hinders us to sell it to Iran or Russia then?

As i said, im sure you agree that any sanctions against internal german interests must be answered accordingly to secure our independence and freedom.

But of course its not about that. Its just business. UsA doesnt get its ****ty LNG aold and now wants force others to buy it with mafia methods.

We wont buy it.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

So in other words the US did what isolationists wanted and let the people of those countries carry out their own affairs.

The affair was the murder of civilians, but hey, the US isn’t supposed to “meddle” :roll:

It’s also rather hypocritical for a PRC apologist to try and weigh in on the subject.
I dont remember any isolationists being for training death squads.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

You may have missed the part where I stated you can dance with the devil if you so choose....

Or is this simply anti-US rant thread?

If so you need to work on your presentation.

Radio Beijing, Radio Moscow and even Radio Havana had better presentations.

I put you at Radio Pyongyang level.

No, its a pro Germany topic. There are attempts in USA to attack our freedom. And thats not in german interests.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

Thats nice that USA doesnt want that. Too bad thats not the case. Germany wont be dependend and energy politics of Germany are decided in Berlin. The moment USA sanctions our internal decissions would be a hostile act and would leave us no other option than striking back. That former alliance would be automaticly at an end then.

There are two who can play that game. UsA sells F 35 to Saudi Arabia. Germany doesnt want that. We have developed a radar system that can detect F 35. What hinders us to sell it to Iran or Russia then?

As i said, im sure you agree that any sanctions against internal german interests must be answered accordingly to secure our independence and freedom.

But of course its not about that. Its just business. UsA doesnt get its ****ty LNG aold and now wants force others to buy it with mafia methods.

We wont buy it.




Americans, and Russians for that matter, would approve of an end to the alliance.


Are you of Turkish origin? I'm asking because you don't look very Aryan in your picture.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

I dont remember any isolationists being for training death squads.

I remember plenty of isolationists complaining about the US helping countries fight off death squads.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

I remember plenty of isolationists complaining about the US helping countries fight off death squads.

We have a very mixed record on that.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

So in other words the US did what isolationists wanted and let the people of those countries carry out their own affairs.

The affair was the murder of civilians, but hey, the US isn’t supposed to “meddle” :roll:

It’s also rather hypocritical for a PRC apologist to try and weigh in on the subject.

No, the US trained death squads for countries to support fascist dictatorships that were US friendly (ie supported). Nothing isolationist about that. That was rather direct intervention

But hey for a genocidal apologist I should expect support for death squads
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

No, the US trained death squads for countries to support fascist dictatorships that were US friendly (ie supported). Nothing isolationist about that. That was rather direct intervention

But hey for a genocidal apologist I should expect support for death squads

Nope, direct intervention would be US personnel doing the killing; not turning a blind eye and not “meddling” in those countries’ affairs.

The only reason you claim to care is because the victims weren’t Tibetans or Uighurs. If they were, you’d be full of excuses for Beijing.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

No, the US trained death squads for countries to support fascist dictatorships that were US friendly (ie supported). Nothing isolationist about that. That was rather direct intervention

But hey for a genocidal apologist I should expect support for death squads


Never heard of this, can you give use some wikipedia links?
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

Americans, and Russians for that matter, would approve of an end to the alliance.


Are you of Turkish origin? I'm asking because you don't look very Aryan in your picture.

This gets ridicolous. How many east germans of turkish origin do you know? There are none. Im ethnic german and look like any other average german.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

Russia is dependend in Germany as customer. Never has Russia violated energy contracts with Germany. And by the way, right now its USA trying to blackmail us.

FYI - there's an old saying that goes "when you have the country by the balls the heart and mind are soon to follow". When the Germany economy is dependent on russian gas, do you think Putin will not use that lever as necessary to advance his own goals?
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

FYI - there's an old saying that goes "when you have the country by the balls the heart and mind are soon to follow". When the Germany economy is dependent on russian gas, do you think Putin will not use that lever as necessary to advance his own goals?
The German economy is far from dependent on Russian gas and even less dependent on Russia altogether.

I suggest you educate yourself some more.
 
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