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German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end? [W:539]

Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

Rostocker said:
Sure, in 1989 east Germans toppled the communist regime in a revolution. Reunion happened. Later on chancellor Schröder carved out first german independend foreign politics now in 2020 Germany follows its own global interests
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We need to go farther back. It was NATO founded in April 1949 - and funded almost entirely by the USA - that kept W Europe, including the larger part of Germany free from the USSR. (Germany joined NATO in 1955 and from then on was a valued member). I - a British/Swedish dual national - am eternally grateful to the US and I think Germans should be so too).

I am much older than you. What may be ancient history for you are events which I remember happening. For example I joined the Royal Navy in 1952 when NATO was in its infancy.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

Rogue Valley said:
Nordstream-2 does in fact make Germany susceptible to Kremlin geopolitical blackmail.

Putin recently used the oil/gas weapon against Belarus ... an ally. He won't hesitate to use it against the West either.
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I think that Germany has itself to blame for opening up the possibility of energy blackmail by foolishly closing down its excellent nuclear power industry.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

Mycroft said:
shrug...

That is your mistake to make.
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Putin is trustworthy because he is stable from one day to the next. Trump flips and flops, so you never know what his policy is going to be
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

Lord Tammerlain said:
Putin is trustworthy because he is stable from one day to the next. Trump flips and flops, so you never know what his policy is going to be
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Trump's policy is the same as it was the day he entered the White House.

But tell me...what is Putin's policy?
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

Rostocker said:
I think the main problem is, that USA is at its end as global power. It gets pushed back at all fronts and now reached the stage, where it gets more and more erratic. Germany openly stands against that rubbish and that triggers Trump.

In the end its absolute clear that no nation can allow a foreign power to dictate its energy politics. So either USA stops its blackmail attempts or this 75 year alliance ends.

Thats not a bad thing either, doesn't mean our nations would be enemies. Just readjust relations or as Merkel said, readjust to the new realities.
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You make many good points. In particular it is the case that 'the American Century' is well and truly over. But why all this focus on Trump? Even if he wins the election he will be a lame duck President in two years and starting to recede into history.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

Mycroft said:
Trump's policy is the same as it was the day he entered the White House.

But tell me...what is Putin's policy?
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Putin is pro Russia, he does not flip and flop on that, nor how to change implement it. He will not say 40% tariffs one day, then say that he did not mean it, then say 50% tariffs the next, the say he did not mean it.

You know exactly where you stand with Putin each and everyday. Everything he has done, is predictable if one follows geopolitics. Russia and Ukraine was entirely predictable, the take over of Crimea was predictable. The only thing that is not is Russian actions in Libya, I do not understand that at this time.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

Mycroft said:
shrug...

That is your mistake to make.
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Well, its Trump who constantly breaks contracts, insults Germany and treats us like an enemy, not Putin.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

Lord Tammerlain said:
Putin is trustworthy because he is stable from one day to the next. Trump flips and flops, so you never know what his policy is going to be
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Putin's seizure of the Crimea was a surprise.

Putin's seizure of the Crimea is a huge threat to world peace.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

swing_voter said:
Putin's seizure of the Crimea was a surprise.

Putin's seizure of the Crimea is a huge threat to world peace.
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No it was not. German chancellor Schröder in 2005 already said that Russia might retake crimea.

And how is it a threat for worldpeace? Was always part of Russia anyways and majority of people there want be part of Russia. Ukraine is and Always was a failed state.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

swing_voter said:
Putin's seizure of the Crimea was a surprise.

Putin's seizure of the Crimea is a huge threat to world peace.
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Putin's seizure of Crimea was only a surprise to those not paying attention.

Sevastapol holds Russia's only warm water port on its western flank. Anyone following geopolitics before that time, would have known the minute the Ukraine tried to pull away from the Russian orbit, parts of Eastern Ukraine and Crimea were going to be targets. Now what was surprise to me, was how easy taking over Crimea was. The other surprise is that Russia has not pushed further into Ukraine to take over more heavily Russian area's
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

Lord Tammerlain said:
Putin is pro Russia, he does not flip and flop on that, nor how to change implement it. He will not say 40% tariffs one day, then say that he did not mean it, then say 50% tariffs the next, the say he did not mean it.

You know exactly where you stand with Putin each and everyday. Everything he has done, is predictable if one follows geopolitics. Russia and Ukraine was entirely predictable, the take over of Crimea was predictable. The only thing that is not is Russian actions in Libya, I do not understand that at this time.
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Another foot in the Mediterranean.

Not much risk in establishing it, seeing how the West is doing absolutely nothing in response.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

Chagos said:
Another foot in the Mediterranean.

Not much risk in establishing it, seeing how the West is doing absolutely nothing in response.
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France is involved in Libya (or was until a few days ago) Italy is involved in Libya, supporting the opposite side of France. Turkey is involved in Libya, and was protecting cargo ship with its navy, when a French naval vessel was going to intercept it. The Turks lit the French ship up on its radar. Now the French are pulling out of the naval task force. They are not as involved as UAE, Turkey or Russia, but they are involved
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

Lord Tammerlain said:
France is involved in Libya (or was until a few days ago) Italy is involved in Libya, supporting the opposite side of France. Turkey is involved in Libya, and was protecting cargo ship with its navy, when a French naval vessel was going to intercept it. The Turks lit the French ship up on its radar. Now the French are pulling out of the naval task force. They are not as involved as UAE, Turkey or Russia, but they are involved
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Yeah, well having a foot in is having a foot in.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

Lord Tammerlain said:
Without Germany, NATO is meaningless. It is the geographical center of Nato. The UK can leave without an issue, or France. But if Germany left it might as well disband
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Heh. So says Merkel.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

Lord Tammerlain said:
Well Russia has never invaded Germany
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The Soviet Union did. That's an issue in which you'd be correct that without Russia, the Warsaw Pact would have fallen apart. In fact, it did.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

Rostocker said:
Without Germany you can disband NATO.

We live in a new era. A multipolar world. Germany and USA will still be Friends, im sure about that.
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You overestimate your importance.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

humbolt said:
The Soviet Union did. That's an issue in which you'd be correct that without Russia, the Warsaw Pact would have fallen apart. In fact, it did.
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The USSR invaded Germany only if you feel the US did as well
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

Lord Tammerlain said:
Putin's seizure of Crimea was only a surprise to those not paying attention.

Sevastapol holds Russia's only warm water port on its western flank. Anyone following geopolitics before that time, would have known the minute the Ukraine tried to pull away from the Russian orbit, parts of Eastern Ukraine and Crimea were going to be targets. Now what was surprise to me, was how easy taking over Crimea was. The other surprise is that Russia has not pushed further into Ukraine to take over more heavily Russian area's
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Russia is looking to regain the Soviet Union.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

swing_voter said:
Russia is looking to regain the Soviet Union.
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At least certain parts of it
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

Lord Tammerlain said:
At least certain parts of it
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I think we should let Putin have what he wants. Why fight over it? It's on the other side of the world.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

Rostocker said:
And that would not be the case when we depend on american LNG?
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True, and adminstrations like trump's wouldn't hesitate to do so as he he has done with other trade partners to date.

Personally I think LNG is not the energy of the future. The infrastructure to support storage, processing and support is incredibly fragile, and extremely dangerous.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

Rostocker said:
Germany is the 2nd biggest military budget in western world in absolute numbers.
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Counts for nothing , your military capability rates below Egypt.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

Rostocker said:
You are right. Germany and Russia share much positive history. We beat Napoleon together. A German women became most powerful russian leader.
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Right up until the panzers started rolling in.

That left a rather larger impression on your average Russian than “beating Napoleon”.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

Rostocker said:
Germany is the 2nd biggest military budget in western world in absolute numbers.
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Germany’s military doesn’t function.

Spending a lot on the military doesn’t matter when your military is in shambles. Just ask the Saudis.
 
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