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Rebecca Long Bailey sacked for anti-semitism

Big Eye said:
Any difference in ideologies is irrelevant when the key uniting principle between the two regimes was their utter disdain for human life
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No, it isn't. Neither the Nazis nor the Soviets created the idea of killing innocent people.

Leftists always go for the "nuanced" angle and end up missing the wood for the trees. The fact that one murderer is a bit more left wing than the other doesn't detract from the fact that both are equally evil.
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The issue here was never which was more nuanced. It was a matter of you not understanding the differences in ideology.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
No, it isn't. Neither the Nazis nor the Soviets created the idea of killing innocent people.



The issue here was never which was more nuanced. It was a matter of you not understanding the differences in ideology.
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I don't even know what you are trying to imply with "Neither the Nazis nor the Soviets created the idea of killing innocent people." As I have already said, neither political system cared about individual lives , both systems were obviously willing to kill millions of unarmed civilians (often their own)...the evidence is there!


There's an old saying..."actions speak louder than words" ,and that stands for negative actions too . The ideological differences between mass murdering regimes counts for nothing if their actions involve murder on an industrial scale. "Nuance" is a leftist buzz word used to imply that they are so much more in tune with "complex" events, that they've studied them and therefore are better informed ...well I'll inform you of this, putting innocent people up against the wall and shooting them has nothing nuanced about it.

I think you need to come to terms with the fact that socialist regimes usually end up being vile mass murdering cesspits ...that's where leftist fantasies always end up taking us but leftists are very slow learners...or the lowest form of life, moral relativists that "think" the end justify the means (the end being some socialist "nirvana" that never gets reached...thank God.)
 
Big Eye said:
I think you need to come to terms with the fact that socialist regimes usually end up being vile mass murdering cesspits ...
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I at no point disputed the notion that the USSR was a vile regime responsible for the deaths of millions. This discussion started when I pointed out you were missing very significant differences between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, differences you completely failed to address and insist on ignoring because you seem to think what we're debating is whether or not killing people is wrong.
 
What if...? said:
Did they learn them from seminars with Israeli secret services?

If they did, it's not anisemitic. Not that that word means anything anymore anyway. Used to death to silence any criticism of any act of the state of Israel.
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Even if they didn't it's not antisemitic.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
I at no point disputed the notion that the USSR was a vile regime responsible for the deaths of millions. This discussion started when I pointed out you were missing very significant differences between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, differences you completely failed to address and insist on ignoring because you seem to think what we're debating is whether or not killing people is wrong.
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You tried to intimate that because the Soviets had some politics that you liked and because they may have killed less people than the Nazis, that somehow they were not as bad. I pointed out why they were just as bad...they put no value on individual human life.

It's a side effect of atheist regimes that because they don't believe in anything like a soul (that exists beyond this life) and because they don't believe that their morals are answerable to a higher power they end up murdering anyone that they think is in the way of their socialist/national socialist objective. It happens every time.
 
Big Eye said:
You tried to intimate that because the Soviets had some politics that you liked and because they may have killed less people than the Nazis, that somehow they were not as bad. I pointed out why they were just as bad...they put no value on individual human life.

It's a side effect of atheist regimes that because they don't believe in anything like a soul (that exists beyond this life) and because they don't believe that their morals are answerable to a higher power they end up murdering anyone that they think is in the way of their socialist/national socialist objective. It happens every time.
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Not only are socialism and National Socialism polar opposites, it is nonsensical to claim that belief in a higher power (titter) ever stopped mass murder and genocide done by believers throughout history.
 
Big Eye said:
You tried to intimate that because the Soviets had some politics that you liked
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That was never my argument. My argument was that they were different, something you still are clearly struggling with.

and because they may have killed less people than the Nazis, that somehow they were not as bad.
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It's natural human tendency to scale things in a quantitative measure. This is not surprising at all.

It's a side effect of atheist regimes that because they don't believe in anything like a soul (that exists beyond this life) and because they don't believe that their morals are answerable to a higher power they end up murdering anyone that they think is in the way of their socialist/national socialist objective. It happens every time.
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Nazi Germany was hardly an atheist regime. Plenty of horrible things have been done in the name of a higher power.
 
Jean-s said:
Not only are socialism and National Socialism polar opposites, it is nonsensical to claim that belief in a higher power (titter) ever stopped mass murder and genocide done by believers throughout history.
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Yeah , polar opposite sides of the same coin. Many national socialists started out as socialists ...the only big difference is one believes in national socialism the other in international socialism.

I don't think that regimes that push or accept belief in a higher power necessarily behave well ... but I do believe that regimes that push atheism will do bad things every time. Name a regime that pushes atheism that behaves well towards its citizens.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
That was never my argument. My argument was that they were different, something you still are clearly struggling with.



It's natural human tendency to scale things in a quantitative measure. This is not surprising at all.



Nazi Germany was hardly an atheist regime. Plenty of horrible things have been done in the name of a higher power.
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You still miss the point (deliberately?) that whether they were ideologically different or not doesn't matter if the reality is that they give a very low value to human life and end up acting in very similar ways, ie, murdering millions of civilians.

Numbers have no place in morality...most of the time higher numbers just indicate more opportunity to murder, nothing whatsoever to do with compassion.

The Nazis knew many of their supporters were Christian , that is the only reason they allowed Christianity to exist in Germany. They did all they could to corrupt and replace it though.
 
Big Eye said:
Yeah , polar opposite sides of the same coin. Many national socialists started out as socialists ...the only big difference is one believes in national socialism the other in international socialism.

I don't think that regimes that push or accept belief in a higher power necessarily behave well ... but I do believe that regimes that push atheism will do bad things every time. Name a regime that pushes atheism that behaves well towards its citizens.
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There are many secular democracies which uphold human rights impeccably. The same cannot be said of theocracies.
 
Big Eye said:
You still miss the point (deliberately?) that whether they were ideologically different or not doesn't matter
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Actually it does, because examining the details and the origins of ideologies and dictators is a very important part of political history. It's why we study it.

Numbers have no place in morality...most of the time higher numbers just indicate more opportunity to murder, nothing whatsoever to do with compassion.
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Interesting. Considering the Soviets were around for much longer than the Nazis, why is it that they didn't kill more than the Nazis?

The Nazis knew many of their supporters were Christian , that is the only reason they allowed Christianity to exist in Germany. They did all they could to corrupt and replace it though.
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This sounds like Christian apologism. Nazi Germany worked very closely with many churches and religious leaders in Germany. To suggest otherwise is lunacy.
 
Jean-s said:
There are many secular democracies which uphold human rights impeccably. The same cannot be said of theocracies.
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Being secular isn't the same as being atheistic. The separation of church and state does not imply that the state is atheist. Atheist states are those that are actively against religion...the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, China, North Korea, Cambodia Under Pol Pot etc.

Theocracies have committed crimes against humanity too, but modern democratic countries with an overwhelming Christian background tend not to . The Christian element is important insofar as it was Christian countries that gave greater value to individuals and therefore real democracy.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
Actually it does, because examining the details and the origins of ideologies and dictators is a very important part of political history. It's why we study it.



Interesting. Considering the Soviets were around for much longer than the Nazis, why is it that they didn't kill more than the Nazis?



This sounds like Christian apologism. Nazi Germany worked very closely with many churches and religious leaders in Germany. To suggest otherwise is lunacy.
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As I've said before "studying the details" is making you miss the wood for the trees. Leftists are prone to the "nuanced" delusion..ie, everything has a complex background that only people who have studied it can understand...then we end up with the modern version of "expert" who seems to make a habit of getting everything wrong about our past and future .

The Soviets may have killed less than the Nazis (assuming that you are correct on that matter) because they had such a grip of terror on their population that there was little reason for killing a compliant economic resource...because ironically in their socialist paradise that's all the masses became.

You clearly have no comprehension of the Nazi State's relationship with the Christian churches...

"Hitler's Propaganda Minister, Joseph Goebbels, saw an "insoluble opposition" between the Christian and Nazi world views.[34] The Fuehrer angered the churches by appointing Alfred Rosenberg, an outspoken pagan, as official Nazi ideologist in 1934.[35] Heinrich Himmler saw the main task of his Schutzstaffel (SS) organization to be that of acting as the vanguard in overcoming Christianity and restoring a "Germanic" way of living.[36] Hitler's chosen deputy, Martin Bormann, advised Nazi officials in 1941 that "National Socialism and Christianity are irreconcilable." "

Religion in Nazi Germany - Wikipedia
 
Big Eye said:
everything has a complex background that only people who have studied it can understand...then we end up with the modern version of "expert" who seems to make a habit of getting everything wrong about our past and future/
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Citation needed. You keep saying that, but you have yet to actually demonstrate it.

The Soviets may have killed less than the Nazis (assuming that you are correct on that matter) because they had such a grip of terror on their population that there was little reason for killing a compliant economic resource...because ironically in their socialist paradise that's all the masses became.
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That's not accurate at all. The reason the Nazis killed more was because their ideology centered around the necessity of clearing "living space" for German people, and that necessitated the extermination of so called "undesirables". That's why the Nazis planned to exterminate the Polish population, kill 1/3rd of the Soviet population, enslave another third, and then expel the remainder to Siberia.

The Soviets didn't kill as many because their ideology *didn't* share those attributes. Oh, the Soviets had no problem killing people when it served as an ends to a mean (see the Great Purge), but they never shared the Nazi obsession with remaking the racial makeup of Europe.

You clearly have no comprehension of the Nazi State's relationship with the Christian churches...
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Yes, I do. You are confusing the Nazi desire to subvert institutions to the state with the same thing as being anti-Christian.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
Citation needed. You keep saying that, but you have yet to actually demonstrate it.



That's not accurate at all. The reason the Nazis killed more was because their ideology centered around the necessity of clearing "living space" for German people, and that necessitated the extermination of so called "undesirables". That's why the Nazis planned to exterminate the Polish population, kill 1/3rd of the Soviet population, enslave another third, and then expel the remainder to Siberia.

The Soviets didn't kill as many because their ideology *didn't* share those attributes. Oh, the Soviets had no problem killing people when it served as an ends to a mean (see the Great Purge), but they never shared the Nazi obsession with remaking the racial makeup of Europe.



Yes, I do. You are confusing the Nazi desire to subvert institutions to the state with the same thing as being anti-Christian.
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Here's an article that demonstrates just how accurate "experts" are...

Why Experts are Almost Always Wrong
|
Smart News

| Smithsonian Magazine

My point is about the nature of evil. I make the point that regardless of numbers murdered both the Communists and Nazis were equally evil because they put no value on individual life. You come back with some blah blah about the Soviets not killing for the same ideological reasons therefore they are not as evil. As I have already said, those ideological differences count for nothing if the outcome (in terms of mass murder, basic human freedoms etc) is exactly the same. You then state that the Nazis killed more than the Soviets (which may or may not be true, neither of us truly knows because the numbers are all over the place), but I'll tell you this fact with 100% confidence...if we put all the Communist regimes together the scale of the mass murder they committed surpasses the Nazis by an absolutely vast number.

The point I make above (that Communism is just as evil as Nazism) is proven beyond all reasonable doubt by the fact that each and every time a communist regime takes control mass murder is unleashed on the population...but you'll still deny that they are as bad as the Nazis purely because you are a left wing apologist...there can be no other excuse for your belief that the Communists weren't as bad as the Nazis.

The history of Communism is written in the blood of a 100* million people .

* give or take a few tens of million...but , hey , who's counting.
 
Big Eye said:
Here's an article that demonstrates just how accurate "experts" are...
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lol

My point is about the nature of evil. I make the point that regardless of numbers murdered both the Communists and Nazis were equally evil because they put no value on individual life.
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Your point is irrelevant because it's been superseded by you repeatedly failing to actually back up your argument with any kind of credible evidence.

You come back with some blah blah about the Soviets not killing for the same ideological reasons therefore they are not as evil.
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It is not my fault you can't grasp history or political ideologies.

As I have already said, those ideological differences count for nothing if the outcome (in terms of mass murder, basic human freedoms etc) is exactly the same.
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Results do not invalidate intentions.

You then state that the Nazis killed more than the Soviets (which may or may not be true, neither of us truly knows because the numbers are all over the place),
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It is true, and you don't want to accept it because you can't argue otherwise but are too stubborn to admit it.

The point I make above (that Communism is just as evil as Nazism) is proven beyond all reasonable doubt by the fact that each and every time a communist regime takes control mass murder is unleashed on the population...but you'll still deny that they are as bad as the Nazis purely because you are a left wing apologist...there can be no other excuse for your belief that the Communists weren't as bad as the Nazis.
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You have really committed to trying to pain this argument in how you WANT it to be rather than what it IS.

The debate was that the USSR was a fundamentally different nation than Nazi Germany. You have failed to demonstrate otherwise and have tried to fall back on the argument that because millions died they are the same, and are now trying to argue that I think the Soviet Union isn't responsible for the death of millions. You are wrong here and you have been wrong on many things throughout this debate.
 
What we see here, as much as in all the many other instances, is the stubborn clinging to the belief that opinion supersedes all facts. Pronounced even more when the opinion is one's own.

Debating the so afflicted is a model exercise in futility.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
lol



Your point is irrelevant because it's been superseded by you repeatedly failing to actually back up your argument with any kind of credible evidence.



It is not my fault you can't grasp history or political ideologies.



Results do not invalidate intentions.



It is true, and you don't want to accept it because you can't argue otherwise but are too stubborn to admit it.



You have really committed to trying to pain this argument in how you WANT it to be rather than what it IS.

The debate was that the USSR was a fundamentally different nation than Nazi Germany. You have failed to demonstrate otherwise and have tried to fall back on the argument that because millions died they are the same, and are now trying to argue that I think the Soviet Union isn't responsible for the death of millions. You are wrong here and you have been wrong on many things throughout this debate.
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My point is simple but you don't get it...that has implications.

Put simply for anyone that bothers to read this ...if the result in terms of mass murder, brutality and loss of basic human freedoms is the same then it really doesn't matter what the ****ing ideology PRETENDS to be , all that matters is what it REALLY is.

Communism has killed millions more people than Nazism but I don't say Communism is worse, I say they are both equally filthy ideologies and that anyone who believes in either is an absolute ****. Hope that makes it clear.
 
Big Eye said:
My point is simple but you don't get it...that has implications.
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No, I get it completely. You are utterly incapable of debating the actual point that led to this discussion, so now you are trying to frame it as a discussion of the nature of evil, which it is not.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
No, I get it completely. You are utterly incapable of debating the actual point that led to this discussion, so now you are trying to frame it as a discussion of the nature of evil, which it is not.
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I tried to make it very simple...

You implied the Soviets were not as bad as the Nazis , I explained why they were equally as evil . The only difference was that I explained my point of view with a clarity that even a child could understand...but you used the usual leftist too "nuanced " for people that haven't studied Communist ideological beliefs deflection.

There was nothing nuanced about the actions of the Soviets, indeed there is nothing nuanced about the actions of all communist regimes that have arisen since the Russian revolution. The history of communism is there for all to see, I don't see how you can possibly deny that it has been as negative for humanity as Nazism. Your excuse for it is based purely on your own political dogma, there can be no other reason for your denial of reality.

The word "nuanced" has emerged as yet another left-wing buzz word used to stop debate...especially when the leftist is losing it.
 
Big Eye said:
I tried to make it very simple...

You implied the Soviets were not as bad as the Nazis , I explained why they were equally as evil . The only difference was that I explained my point of view with a clarity that even a child could understand...but you used the usual leftist too "nuanced " for people that haven't studied Communist ideological beliefs deflection.

There was nothing nuanced about the actions of the Soviets, indeed there is nothing nuanced about the actions of all communist regimes that have arisen since the Russian revolution. The history of communism is there for all to see, I don't see how you can possibly deny that it has been as negative for humanity as Nazism. Your excuse for it is based purely on your own political dogma, there can be no other reason for your denial of reality.

The word "nuanced" has emerged as yet another left-wing buzz word used to stop debate...especially when the leftist is losing it.
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Give it a rest. Your posts are incoherent.
 
Big Eye said:
I tried to make it very simple...

You implied the Soviets were not as bad as the Nazis
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My point from the very beginning was the same as it is now; that the Soviets are not as responsible for as many deaths as the Third Reich, and the reasoning from their different body counts lies in their ideological stance.

It is YOU who then decided you cannot comprehend this argument beyond the idea of saying which side, Nazi Germany or the USSR, was more evil, even though my original point had nothing to do with the notion of who is more evil.

The word "nuanced" has emerged as yet another left-wing buzz word used to stop debate...especially when the leftist is losing it.
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This is a very fancy way of you saying "I don't understand your argument so I'm going to act like you're losing".
 
Jredbaron96 said:
My point from the very beginning was the same as it is now; that the Soviets are not as responsible for as many deaths as the Third Reich, and the reasoning from their different body counts lies in their ideological stance.

It is YOU who then decided you cannot comprehend this argument beyond the idea of saying which side, Nazi Germany or the USSR, was more evil, even though my original point had nothing to do with the notion of who is more evil.



This is a very fancy way of you saying "I don't understand your argument so I'm going to act like you're losing".
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Well , as you should gather by now, I strongly disagree. There is nothing to suggest that the Soviets weren't just as willing to slaughter civilians as the Nazis were. They deliberately starved millions of their own people for ****'s sake. The only difference is that the Soviets didn't kill compliant civilians if it suited their economic plans... whereas the Nazis often killed for ideologically racist/military reasons the Soviets killed for ideologically political/military reasons. Multiple communist regimes since have demonstrated their utter willingness to wipe out swathes of civilians if it suits their agenda.

It is also important to understand that in an invasion such as Operation Barbarossa the attacking force will almost certainly cause more "collateral damage" (ie, kill civilians) than the defending side, so saying all the deaths caused by the Nazis was ideological in nature would be false. It is also important to point out that although the Nazis were wrong to invade Russia from a moral point of view , it is almost certain that if they hadn't then the Soviets would have taken the initiative.

I think it's been pretty clear what you have meant all along, it's just that I think you are wrong for reasons that I have pointed out. Just out of interest I'd like to see what it is in Soviet ideology that you believe made them less murderous than the Nazis.
 
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