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What is your opinion about the European Union?

ok i will bite ... i support it 100% ... it's not perfect but what is it brings 27 - 28 countries to work together on most things instead of being in competition with each other and it has ended hundreds of years of conflict so yeah it's been good for all concerned hence other countries in Europe want to join
 
Its an unequal economic bloc dominated by its two biggest members- Germany and France. I believe it will collapse sooner or later.
 
PoS said:
Its an unequal economic bloc dominated by its two biggest members- Germany and France. I believe it will collapse sooner or later.
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the biggest mistake the EU made was enlarging from 16 nations under pressure from London and Washington ... Washington wanted to sell NATO membership to former Warsaw pact nations with EU membership and London's angle was to dilute German and French control over the EU .... the reality the EU is two separate blocks east and West both have different agendas and it diluted money that wen to poorer southern EU countries to help the dirt poor eastern European countries ... a lot of people forget how poor those southern EU countries were pre EU/EEC membership ... if Eastern Europeans want to leave the EU then let them ... economically they would be no loss to the EU they are all pulling in a different direction from the 16 anyways and they are dancing to Americas organ
 
Possibly it was in allowing the UK so many opt-outs because we're so friggin' "special". It would probably make an independent Scotland's accession to the EU simpler had we adopted the euro, whatever the reasons for not doing so, some of which I did agree with.
 
Godric1970 said:
the biggest mistake the EU made was enlarging from 16 nations under pressure from London and Washington ... Washington wanted to sell NATO membership to former Warsaw pact nations ~
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Washington tried really hard to push Turkey's accession too. Most Americans who hate the EU forget the part thier own "gubmint" had in its enlargement.

Now we have two semi-fascist states like Poland and Hungary(pretty much fascist now) poisoning the well and because there's no way to boot countries out easily, the EU is stuck with them.
 
Godric1970 said:
~................ ... if Eastern Europeans want to leave the EU then let them ... economically they would be no loss to the EU they are all pulling in a different direction from the 16 anyways and they are dancing to Americas organ
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irony being that the "Easterners" don't want to leave on account of the goodies coming their way.

If either Hungary's or Poland's parties tried to run on any leave ticket, they'd be thrown out by their voters and they know this. The cognitive dissonance lies in their respective voters who applaud the shunning of responsibility that comes with membership (although they'd interpret that stance much differently) while lauding the economic advantages. The respective governments have in part created this beast of illogic and have in part fed what was already there.

But then rabid nationalism and intelligent appraisal of anything always rule each other out.
 
ceskejbelican said:
I'm curious about your opinion.
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Happy to be living in a member state of the EU. The Euro is a great invention and I am generally speaking happy with the EU and it's existence.
 
I can't believe your thinking. Calling countries dirt poor eastern. Well I wiil agree with you that EU is seperated to the East and West, but if we gonna talk about economic, eastern european countries are growing up. So yes if these countries would left, it would be hard hit to the EU, every single state in the EU is important, but you sound like guy who doesn't live in EU. Those countries you calling poor, were destroyed by communism and wars, thanks to the EU we have now better lives, but that doesn't mean EU is good. Again if we gonna talk about ecnomic yes it really helped Europe, thanks to the EU we now have Schengen so that kinda thing are really good. The problem is how really EU works only Germany, Italy and French controls the EU, smaller countries have no impact in the voting, so if EU make some decision we don't like, they hit us with sanctions. But besised all that, I'm that EU is, but i thing it would need some king od reform.
 
ceskejbelican said:
I can't believe your thinking. Calling countries dirt poor eastern. Well I wiil agree with you that EU is seperated to the East and West, but if we gonna talk about economic, eastern european countries are growing up. So yes if these countries would left, it would be hard hit to the EU, every single state in the EU is important, but you sound like guy who doesn't live in EU. Those countries you calling poor, were destroyed by communism and wars, thanks to the EU we have now better lives, but that doesn't mean EU is good. Again if we gonna talk about ecnomic yes it really helped Europe, thanks to the EU we now have Schengen so that kinda thing are really good. The problem is how really EU works only Germany, Italy and French controls the EU, smaller countries have no impact in the voting, so if EU make some decision we don't like, they hit us with sanctions. But besised all that, I'm that EU is, but i thing it would need some king od reform.
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Godric1970 said:
the biggest mistake the EU made was enlarging from 16 nations under pressure from London and Washington ... Washington wanted to sell NATO membership to former Warsaw pact nations with EU membership and London's angle was to dilute German and French control over the EU .... the reality the EU is two separate blocks east and West both have different agendas and it diluted money that wen to poorer southern EU countries to help the dirt poor eastern European countries ... a lot of people forget how poor those southern EU countries were pre EU/EEC membership ... if Eastern Europeans want to leave the EU then let them ... economically they would be no loss to the EU they are all pulling in a different direction from the 16 anyways and they are dancing to Americas organ
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You both bring up good points. Yes, Eastern European members have benefited from the EU greatly, but they have also been stymied by its trade laws and restrictions which favor members like Germany too. Social laws like immigration and refugees are also a major sticking point, with the border countries like Greece taking the brunt of the problem, while the Germans and French boss them around without any risk to themselves- a double edged sword.
 
ceskejbelican said:
~ thanks to the EU we have now better lives ~
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Why do many Eastern EU countries keep voting semi-fascists into power then? Take Orban for example though he's definitely not "semi".

There are aspirations and standards these countries are supposed to aim for but Poland and Hungary are not adhering to them - yet still taking the cash.
 
ceskejbelican said:
I can't believe your thinking. Calling countries dirt poor eastern. Well I wiil agree with you that EU is seperated to the East and West, but if we gonna talk about economic, eastern european countries are growing up. So yes if these countries would left, it would be hard hit to the EU, every single state in the EU is important, but you sound like guy who doesn't live in EU. Those countries you calling poor, were destroyed by communism and wars, thanks to the EU we have now better lives, but that doesn't mean EU is good. Again if we gonna talk about ecnomic yes it really helped Europe, thanks to the EU we now have Schengen so that kinda thing are really good. The problem is how really EU works only Germany, Italy and French controls the EU, smaller countries have no impact in the voting, so if EU make some decision we don't like, they hit us with sanctions. But besised all that, I'm that EU is, but i thing it would need some king od reform.
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Oh for goodness sake, the EU is paying heavily TO the countries in question, last not least yours.

And the decisions "you don't like" are in accordance with overall agreements that your country(ies) signed up to as much as every other state did. If you want to go back on those now, just leave.

And then watch the flow of the goodies come to a standstill.
 
Godric1970 said:
the biggest mistake the EU made was enlarging from 16 nations ...............~
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That's one point I'll sign immediately, no matter what pressures caused the expansion.

Admitting a bunch of others that have absolutely no clue of the spirit the EU (EEC before that) founded upon, was a great mistake.

And I'm not knocking those countries' inability to share into the concept, historically they are simply prevented from "getting it" thru no particular fault of their own.

The fault lies more with the core states for their idiotic faith in being able to superimpose a "one fit all" on others that don't fit in the least. And, ignoring this basic truth, having bent over to outside interests.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Why do many Eastern EU countries keep voting semi-fascists into power then? Take Orban for example though he's definitely not "semi".

There are aspirations and standards these countries are supposed to aim for but Poland and Hungary are not adhering to them - yet still taking the cash.
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Chagos said:
Oh for goodness sake, the EU is paying heavily TO the countries in question, last not least yours.

And the decisions "you don't like" are in accordance with overall agreements that your country(ies) signed up to as much as every other state did. If you want to go back on those now, just leave.

And then watch the flow of the goodies come to a standstill.
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Well people in Poland in Hungary (i mean older generation), are not used to that democrtic system is working, they still kinda communist if you understand. But there is big difference between Hungarian prime minister and Poland's prime minister, the Hungarian is pretty much nationalistic and probably wants dictatirship regime, on the other the Poland prime minister is highly patriotic, like for example Trump.


Yes you're right, but that necessarily mean we should like everything the EU will decide. That's just not democracy. We have every single right to like and not like some decision, and like I said earlier, I love EU, I love the idea and that it brings Europe finally together. But again we in the east knows what is regime that want to control people, regime that wants to dictate and rule, you don't. And you have no idea how really communism destroyed eastern europe. You mentioned so much money EU put in us, but EU puts whole lotta money to every single state in the EU. In the 90s the whole lotta money was put in Germany etc. But you missed the point what EU really is. EU is helping countries who needs that money, nowdays is eastern euope. The argument if we don't like it just leave it, just doesn't make any sense, but I'm not trynna say that I'm 100% right and you bad, no I just want you to understand the realy situation in the east.
I'm just gonna one thing, in the 1968 my country Czech republic former Czechoslovakia wänted to go democratic and join the West. From the 20.8 1968 we were occupied by the Soviets, just the example to show you that we didn't want to have cummunism and be poor.
 
ceskejbelican said:
Well people in Poland in Hungary (i mean older generation), are not used to that democrtic system is working, they still kinda communist if you understand. But there is big difference between Hungarian prime minister and Poland's prime minister, the Hungarian is pretty much nationalistic and probably wants dictatirship regime, on the other the Poland prime minister is highly patriotic, like for example Trump.


Yes you're right, but that necessarily mean we should like everything the EU will decide. That's just not democracy. We have every single right to like and not like some decision, and like I said earlier, I love EU, I love the idea and that it brings Europe finally together. But again we in the east knows what is regime that want to control people, regime that wants to dictate and rule, you don't. And you have no idea how really communism destroyed eastern europe. You mentioned so much money EU put in us, but EU puts whole lotta money to every single state in the EU. In the 90s the whole lotta money was put in Germany etc. But you missed the point what EU really is. EU is helping countries who needs that money, nowdays is eastern euope. The argument if we don't like it just leave it, just doesn't make any sense, but I'm not trynna say that I'm 100% right and you bad, no I just want you to understand the realy situation in the east.
I'm just gonna one thing, in the 1968 my country Czech republic former Czechoslovakia wänted to go democratic and join the West. From the 20.8 1968 we were occupied by the Soviets, just the example to show you that we didn't want to have cummunism and be poor.
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Where I largely agree with the first paragraph of your above post, there's so much wrong with what is in the second paragraph, I don't even know where to start the list.

For one thing, if you're a member state of the EU, you have a vote in it. THAT is democracy. If a majority of other member states votes differently to your desire, THAT is also democracy. And that vote is abided by, ALSO DEMOCRACY.

As to your claim that all EU monies went to Germany in the 90s, only you know where you got this nonsense from.

Wrt understanding the situation in the East, how many years more are needed before some of those states overcome their self-pity over communist domination? It's been over thirty years now since all communist regimes in Eastern Europe fell, so why is it just Poland, Hungary and, to some extent, the Czech Republic where all the whining comes from today, while the Baltic States don't do much of that? Note that those three were not just Satellites of the Kremlin but actual Soviet Republics.

Maybe that should have happened to you guys (not YOU personally) so that you could appreciate more what you have today.

I'm incidentally fully aware of the dire conditions of and in the Eastern bloc prior to the Iron curtain falling. I traveled a lot in most of its countries when they were still behind that curtain.
 
ceskejbelican said:
Well people in Poland in Hungary (i mean older generation), are not used to that democrtic system is working, they still kinda communist if you understand. But there is big difference between Hungarian prime minister and Poland's prime minister, the Hungarian is pretty much nationalistic and probably wants dictatirship regime, on the other the Poland prime minister is highly patriotic, like for example Trump.


Yes you're right, but that necessarily mean we should like everything the EU will decide. That's just not democracy. We have every single right to like and not like some decision, and like I said earlier, I love EU, I love the idea and that it brings Europe finally together. But again we in the east knows what is regime that want to control people, regime that wants to dictate and rule, you don't. And you have no idea how really communism destroyed eastern europe. You mentioned so much money EU put in us, but EU puts whole lotta money to every single state in the EU. In the 90s the whole lotta money was put in Germany etc. But you missed the point what EU really is. EU is helping countries who needs that money, nowdays is eastern euope. The argument if we don't like it just leave it, just doesn't make any sense, but I'm not trynna say that I'm 100% right and you bad, no I just want you to understand the realy situation in the east.
I'm just gonna one thing, in the 1968 my country Czech republic former Czechoslovakia wänted to go democratic and join the West. From the 20.8 1968 we were occupied by the Soviets, just the example to show you that we didn't want to have cummunism and be poor.
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Germany put a lot of money into Germany and not the EU as Germany had to integrate East Germany back into Germany and Germany is still integrating East Germany as the East German economy and infrastructure was obsolete on unification ... Germany is nearly paying 100 billion Euros into the EU budget every year

Eastern Europe will continue to lag behind Western Europe economically as it would probably take a trillion Euros every year for 2 decades for Eastern Europe to reach our standard of living and the EU hasn't got that amount of money
 
What is your opinion about the European Union?
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I dont live anywhere inside it, so, I really dont have one.
 
Chagos said:
Where I largely agree with the first paragraph of your above post, there's so much wrong with what is in the second paragraph, I don't even know where to start the list.

For one thing, if you're a member state of the EU, you have a vote in it. THAT is democracy. If a majority of other member states votes differently to your desire, THAT is also democracy. And that vote is abided by, ALSO DEMOCRACY.

As to your claim that all EU monies went to Germany in the 90s, only you know where you got this nonsense from.

Wrt understanding the situation in the East, how many years more are needed before some of those states overcome their self-pity over communist domination? It's been over thirty years now since all communist regimes in Eastern Europe fell, so why is it just Poland, Hungary and, to some extent, the Czech Republic where all the whining comes from today, while the Baltic States don't do much of that? Note that those three were not just Satellites of the Kremlin but actual Soviet Republics.

Maybe that should have happened to you guys (not YOU personally) so that you could appreciate more what you have today.

I'm incidentally fully aware of the dire conditions of and in the Eastern bloc prior to the Iron curtain falling. I traveled a lot in most of its countries when they were still behind that curtain.
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Man, do you really think that being 41 years under communist regime + 7 years under Nazis, will really give us chance to have compare to the west? For example you meantioned Baltic states, well Lithuania, Latvia are one of the poorest countries in Europe, and they really have mostly same opinion as us. Google poorest countries in Europe, every single one of them is post communist. But to answer you question, specially us Czechs,Slovaks, Poles and Hungarians have this habit to complain about everything :D, but back to serious stuff. Yes you are right in the voting we have the right to vote, but Germany has 96 mep, France 79, Spain 59 and we Czechs have 21 mep, so we do have a right to vote but we're get outvoted. So for example let's look at immingration crisis, and I'm not going to talk about immigration it self, everybody has their own opinion, and it's a very touchy topic. Our countries don't want to accept the immigrants, ve voted for not accepted them, but once again we got outvoted, which is not kinda right, we have our own right to deal with certain situations like we wanted, that seems fair to me. But we said no, because own goverement said we only accept legal immingrant not iliegal, and fot that we get fined. That doesn't look like democracy for me.
That doesn't mean anything if you travelled most of the countries behind the curtain. Believe me, we really apreciate democracy, but many people in the west forgot what is democracy (not you personally) but you understand what i mean.
Thank you for this discusion, I really appreciate it.
 
ceskejbelican said:
~ Yes you are right in the voting we have the right to vote, but Germany has 96 mep, France 79, Spain 59 and we Czechs have 21 mep, so we do have a right to vote but we're get outvoted. So for example let's look at immingration crisis, and I'm not going to talk about immigration it self, everybody has their own opinion, and it's a very touchy topic. Our countries don't want to accept the immigrants, ve voted for not accepted them, but once again we got outvoted, which is not kinda right, we have our own right to deal with certain situations like we wanted, that seems fair to me. But we said no, because own goverement said we only accept legal immingrant not iliegal, and fot that we get fined. That doesn't look like democracy for me.
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Yes there are some elements of the voting system that can hurt - however what you have to remember is the EU is not just the political organisation but also the member states. Italy and Greece have faced the burden of dealing with migrants and the three countries were asked to help in other ways (taking quotas of legal migrants) which they largely refused.

The EU at its best isn't just about giving money to develop the poorest - but also sharing burdens and sometimes too about working collectively to face large external pressures.
 
The peoples of Europe were told the lie that forerunner of the EU was only a trading arrangement and had no political purpose. The founders have many times confessed that this falsehood was essential because if the populations had been told of their intentions they would never have agreed to their programme. After all these decades we have reached the point of a top down State, with an anthem , and a flag and the dictate that all those who live within its borders are its 'citizens'; their previous citizenship having been removed without their consent. The EU has a supreme court, several unelected 'Presidents' and rules without any semblance of democracy other than a fake 'parliament'.

I served for 30 years in the British Diplomatic Service and witnessed the development of the EU, sometimes from up close. Over time I became increasingly certain that the EU was not just undemocratic but actively anti-democratic. I am glad that I lived to see Britain's escape. Nothing would please me more than to see the EU now collapse from its evident inability to be of any use to the Member States, financial or medical, in the present crisis.
 
ceskejbelican said:
Man, do you really think that being 41 years under communist regime + 7 years under Nazis, will really give us chance to have compare to the west? For example you meantioned Baltic states, well Lithuania, Latvia are one of the poorest countries in Europe, and they really have mostly same opinion as us. Google poorest countries in Europe, every single one of them is post communist. But to answer you question, specially us Czechs,Slovaks, Poles and Hungarians have this habit to complain about everything :D, but back to serious stuff. Yes you are right in the voting we have the right to vote, but Germany has 96 mep, France 79, Spain 59 and we Czechs have 21 mep, so we do have a right to vote but we're get outvoted. So for example let's look at immingration crisis, and I'm not going to talk about immigration it self, everybody has their own opinion, and it's a very touchy topic. Our countries don't want to accept the immigrants, ve voted for not accepted them, but once again we got outvoted, which is not kinda right, we have our own right to deal with certain situations like we wanted, that seems fair to me. But we said no, because own goverement said we only accept legal immingrant not iliegal, and fot that we get fined. That doesn't look like democracy for me.
That doesn't mean anything if you travelled most of the countries behind the curtain. Believe me, we really apreciate democracy, but many people in the west forgot what is democracy (not you personally) but you understand what i mean.
Thank you for this discusion, I really appreciate it.
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So if all of you finally have 48 years without communist and Nazi suppression, the rest of us may expect that the whining stops and you guys decide to learn about democracy? In round about 17 years time?

And at the time of joining, the Czechs (to address just your people) were kept in the dark over the number of MEPs that each country has in the European parliament would be proportionate to its population size?

And just in case it's dropped from your memory, in joining you also agreed to accept the rulings of the European Court on any relevant matter pertaining to the EU. The judges of which, oh surprise, are appointed by UNANIMOUS agreement of all member states, forget the European parliament that you whine about not having a larger number of MEPs in.

With that court having held or still holding judges also from Poland, Hungary and (yeah) a Czech one, and just having ruled that all of those three countries breached European law in their refusal to accept their agreed quota of refugees.

Yeah, your countries sure have a tendency to complain about practically everything and in the process not getting any of your facts right.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Yes there are some elements of the voting system that can hurt - however what you have to remember is the EU is not just the political organisation but also the member states. Italy and Greece have faced the burden of dealing with migrants and the three countries were asked to help in other ways (taking quotas of legal migrants) which they largely refused.

The EU at its best isn't just about giving money to develop the poorest - but also sharing burdens and sometimes too about working collectively to face large external pressures.
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Yes I completely agree with you, we should work more together, we are the Europe. The situation in Greece was disaster, immigrant crisis was a disaster. EU right know facing some problems that are really hard to solve, the reason more to work more together and stop with this East and West, it's over and we should move on, but now with the UK out it was a big slap, and thanks to that in Poland was many protests to leave the EU, same in Hungary. Something is not working, because thanks to the EU we have better lives. Why this protests is happening? Me personally with all the opinions I have, I don't want my country to leave. We are not working together as we should and that's I think is the biggest problem in the EU.

Our goverment said we are ready to accept illegal immigrants, but in Poland they said We only accept legal.
 
ceskejbelican said:
Yes I completely agree with you, we should work more together, we are the Europe. The situation in Greece was disaster, immigrant crisis was a disaster. EU right know facing some problems that are really hard to solve, the reason more to work more together and stop with this East and West, it's over and we should move on, but now with the UK out it was a big slap, and thanks to that in Poland was many protests to leave the EU, same in Hungary. Something is not working, because thanks to the EU we have better lives. Why this protests is happening? Me personally with all the opinions I have, I don't want my country to leave. We are not working together as we should and that's I think is the biggest problem in the EU.

Our goverment said we are ready to accept illegal immigrants, but in Poland they said We only accept legal.
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That last sentence already shows your lack of comprehension.

The question of accepting illegal immigrants doesn't even arise here since the whole EU makes no provision for illegals to be afforded the right of stay.

And Poland refused to accept ANY refugee, without distinction.
 
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ceskejbelican said:
Yes I completely agree with you, we should work more together, we are the Europe. The situation in Greece was disaster, immigrant crisis was a disaster. EU right know facing some problems that are really hard to solve, the reason more to work more together and stop with this East and West, it's over and we should move on, but now with the UK out it was a big slap, and thanks to that in Poland was many protests to leave the EU, same in Hungary. Something is not working, because thanks to the EU we have better lives. Why this protests is happening? Me personally with all the opinions I have, I don't want my country to leave. We are not working together as we should and that's I think is the biggest problem in the EU.
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Working together means sometimes someone has to make a sacrifice of some kind. The migrant / refugee crisis was an example - some countries took in migrants and those that were not part of the programme paid to support those countries that didn't. One reason why the 3 (4) countries fined were always going to be fined. They didn't take any refugees and didn't pay anything out to support those countries that did.

ceskejbelican said:
accept illegal immigrants
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The EU was not going to ask countries to accept illegals at any point. Illegals should be sent back otherwise it would encourage more traffic.

ceskejbelican said:
but in Poland they said We only accept legal.
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Poland was fined too - for not accepting any refugees. The EU may stick with the original cost of €250,000 per refugee - covering costs for someone else taking them in. That will probably come from money you were due to receive.
 
Sweden said:
The peoples of Europe were told the lie that forerunner of the EU was only a trading arrangement and had no political purpose. The founders have many times confessed that this falsehood was essential because if the populations had been told of their intentions they would never have agreed to their programme. After all these decades we have reached the point of a top down State, with an anthem , and a flag and the dictate that all those who live within its borders are its 'citizens'; their previous citizenship having been removed without their consent. The EU has a supreme court, several unelected 'Presidents' and rules without any semblance of democracy other than a fake 'parliament'.

I served for 30 years in the British Diplomatic Service and witnessed the development of the EU, sometimes from up close. Over time I became increasingly certain that the EU was not just undemocratic but actively anti-democratic. I am glad that I lived to see Britain's escape. Nothing would please me more than to see the EU now collapse from its evident inability to be of any use to the Member States, financial or medical, in the present crisis.
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this so called myth that the EU presidents are unelected is just that they are elected by the MEPs in the Euro parliament and the price of Brexit will be Scotland leaving the UK
 
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