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Hindenburg no longer an honorary Berlin citizen

J

Jean-s

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Still at war with the personalities of 90 years ago...how pointless.
 
Just wait until Ludendorff hears about this.
 
I'll tell you what is long overdue. That is an apology to the neaderthals for homo sapiens wiping them out. How much longer before that grave injustice is admitted?
 
maxparrish said:
Still at war with the personalities of 90 years ago...how pointless.
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It does not surprise me that modern day Germans still bear a grudge......I wonder how many years Republicans will be punished for giving us Trump.
 
joko104 said:
I'll tell you what is long overdue. That is an apology to the neaderthals for homo sapiens wiping them out. How much longer before that grave injustice is admitted?
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Seems to me the Denisovans deserve an apology as well - first us homo Sap's screw em, get their good genes, and then make sure they moved out of the neighborhood.

Oh the shame of it, "we" have so much to atone for.
 
joko104 said:
I'll tell you what is long overdue. That is an apology to the neaderthals for homo sapiens wiping them out. How much longer before that grave injustice is admitted?
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Haven't you heard? We did not wipe them out, they were assimilated into the sapiens gene pool. We all have Neanderthal genes.....some more than others I think. :lol:

Neanderthals are the closest extinct relatives of modern humans, and lived in Europe and Asia. Recent findings suggest that Neanderthals were closely related enough to interbreed with ancestors of modern humans — about 1.5 to 2.1 percent of the DNA of anyone outside Africa is Neanderthal in origin.
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Humans Did Not Wipe Out the Neanderthals, New Research Suggests | Live Science
 
This is equal to the removal of Civil War general statues in the United States. A silly attempt to assign blame to people without considering the entire historical context. At the time Hindenberg agreed to a deal with the Nazis, the German government was already in full blown crises. Hitler's rise to power was inevitable. Call it Kismet.
 
What escapes the whole darn lot of you that has no horse in this race anyway, is that it's none of your friggin' business what Berlin decides to do.

Just as Germans in general and Berliners in particular don't give a hoot over what happens to Confederate monuments in whatever hick town down your way.

:roll:
 
Court Jester said:
This is equal to the removal of Civil War general statues in the United States. A silly attempt to assign blame to people without considering the entire historical context. At the time Hindenberg agreed to a deal with the Nazis, the German government was already in full blown crises. Hitler's rise to power was inevitable. Call it Kismet.
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I see it differently inasmuch as Hindenburg was given the honor while still alive and in office. Statues in former slave states to honor those who fought the USA were erected after they had died and some quite recently to remind blacks in Dixie that they did not have civil rights and ought to know their place as second class citizens. For example, Supreme Court judge and segregationist Roger Taney had his statue (recast in 1887) removed from the front lawn of the Maryland State House three years ago. Taney wrote the 1857 Dred Scott decision that defended slavery and said black Americans could never be citizens. In contrast, there are no statues of Hitler or vanquished German generals who served him in modern Germany or Austria.

Roger_B._Taney_statue,_Mount_Vernon_Place,_Baltimore,_MD.jpg
Statue of Roger Taney prior to its removal
 
Hey, he got an airship named after him.
 
Jean-s said:
I see it differently inasmuch as Hindenburg was given the honor while still alive and in office. Statues in former slave states to honor those who fought the USA were erected after they had died and some quite recently to remind blacks in Dixie that they did not have civil rights and ought to know their place as second class citizens.
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Not even close to the reality. "Southern/Dixie pride" was more of a post civil war reaction to the carpetbaggers and other economic and cultural punishment directed at people who were mostly poor white southerners who never for the most part were slave owners. So to rally around the flag so to speak in a false hope that "the south will rise again" was more about finding commonality in their desperate situation. It was correct that the Union fight a war to end slavery, but the North (America) failed in administrating the recovery correctly leading to an even longer lasting social illness of prejudice and abuse. So not unlike how Britain and France continued to punish the German people after WW1 despite President Wilson's warnings; when you push people back against the wall, bad things often result from that. So just like the rise of Facism in Germany, some blame goes the nations who put Germany against the wall. After WW2 in Japan for example, the United States sought to rebuild Japan rather than continue to punish and the results were a modern democratic healthy trading partner.


Jean-s said:
For example, Supreme Court judge and segregationist Roger Taney had his statue (recast in 1887) removed from the front lawn of the Maryland State House three years ago. Taney wrote the 1857 Dred Scott decision that defended slavery and said black Americans could never be citizens. In contrast, there are no statues of Hitler or vanquished German generals who served him in modern Germany or Austria.
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I was defending the military statues and monuments. I don't have an opinion on Taney, but I would warn you that if people continue to call for this modern day cleansing continues, then what is next--- removing statues of Washington and Jefferson too because they owned slaves? Changing the name of our capital? Turning the Washington monument into crushed gravel?

There shouldn't be statues of Hitler, but we weren't talking about Hitler, we were talking about Hindenberg.
 
Hindenburg was (one of) the gravedigger(s) of the Weimar Republic. Long before he approved the Reichstag Fire Decree, (which suspended various civil liberties), and signed the Enabling Act of 1933 (giving Hitler's regime arbitrary powers), he was instrumental in propagating the "Dolchstosslegende" (dagger in the back myth) by which he and Ludendorff shifted the blame for Germany's WWI defeat from themselves onto politicians at home.

After both of them not only having actually admitted that the German Army was beaten by superior numbers of its Allied opposition, but also after both of them issued practically an ultimatum to Berlin to form a new government for the sole sake of initiating negotiations over an armistice.

To then, lying scumbags that they were, later on blame that same government for Germany's defeat.

It was about bloody time for this move that should have been made decades ago.
 
While I am no fan of Paul Von Hindenburg's politics in the 1930's but he did save Germany from Tsarist Russian invasion in the fall of 1914. Had he not won the battles of Tannenberg and the Fisrt Masurian Lakes, disabling the invading 8th and 2nd (?) Tsarist armies invading Prussia, it is a reasonable assumption that Berlin would have fallen to the invading Russian hordes. So Berliners owe their salvation to him.

His politics sucked but he did save Germany from the Tsar's armies. Just say'in Berlin.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Evilroddy said:
While I am no fan of Paul Von Hindenburg's politics in the 1930's but he did save Germany from Tsarist Russian invasion in the fall of 1914. Had he not won the battles of Tannenberg and the Fisrt Masurian Lakes, disabling the invading 8th and 2nd (?) Tsarist armies invading Prussia, it is a reasonable assumption that Berlin would have fallen to the invading Russian hordes. So Berliners owe their salvation to him.
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Fun fact:

The battle of Tannenberg wasn't really at Tannenberg but at Allenstein (Hohenstein). Hindenburg requested that it be (falsely) named as known today, in reminiscence of the defeat of the German Knights by Polish-Lithuanien forces 500 years earlier, which really happened at Tannenberg (spruce mountain). Kind of a late revenge by letting his victory now scrub out the previous defeat, whenever the name now found mention.

As to the battle itself, the Russian Army had done everything to already defeat itself, long before the first shot was fired.

Bad planning, insufficient supply lines, virtually non-existent artillery (big guns having been left behind to protect further inland fortresses), betting on cavalry as the weapon of first choice in face of heavy machine guns and repeating rifle, the Russians practically flunked it pretty much the same as France had done at Sedan, around 40 years earlier.

That Hindenburg was neither the hero nor the genius that Germany subsequently made of him, showed when he had to face real armies later on in the West.
His politics sucked but he did save Germany from the Tsar's armies. Just say'in Berlin.
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Considering the mass of bad judgment shown by the Tsarist generalship, it would probably have taken a miracle for the Russians to even find Berlin
:lol:
 
Court Jester said:
Not even close to the reality. "Southern/Dixie pride" was more of a post civil war reaction to the carpetbaggers and other economic and cultural punishment directed at people who were mostly poor white southerners who never for the most part were slave owners. So to rally around the flag so to speak in a false hope that "the south will rise again" was more about finding commonality in their desperate situation. It was correct that the Union fight a war to end slavery, but the North (America) failed in administrating the recovery correctly leading to an even longer lasting social illness of prejudice and abuse. So not unlike how Britain and France continued to punish the German people after WW1 despite President Wilson's warnings; when you push people back against the wall, bad things often result from that. So just like the rise of Facism in Germany, some blame goes the nations who put Germany against the wall. After WW2 in Japan for example, the United States sought to rebuild Japan rather than continue to punish and the results were a modern democratic healthy trading partner.




I was defending the military statues and monuments. I don't have an opinion on Taney, but I would warn you that if people continue to call for this modern day cleansing continues, then what is next--- removing statues of Washington and Jefferson too because they owned slaves? Changing the name of our capital? Turning the Washington monument into crushed gravel?
Click to expand...
Your argument that the statues of those who fought for slavery against the USA being a reaction to carpetbaggers does not hold up when you consider the dates these monuments were erected. The most recent comprehensive study of Confederate statues and monuments across the country was published by the Southern Poverty Law Center in 2016. This shows huge spikes in construction twice during the 20th century: in the early 1900s, and then again in the 1950s and 60s. Both were times of extreme civil rights tension. "Most of the people who were involved in erecting the monuments were not necessarily erecting a monument to the past," said Jane Dailey, an associate professor of history at the University of Chicago."But were rather, erecting them toward a white supremacist future. These statues were meant to create legitimate garb for white supremacy," Grossman said. "Why would you put a statue of Robert E. Lee or Stonewall Jackson in 1948 in Baltimore?"
Why Were Confederate Monuments Built? : NPR

Court Jester said:
There shouldn't be statues of Hitler, but we weren't talking about Hitler, we were talking about Hindenberg.
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No, you were defending rebel military statues and monuments.
 
Chagos said:
Fun fact:

The battle of Tannenberg wasn't really at Tannenberg but at Allenstein (Hohenstein). Hindenburg requested that it be (falsely) named as known today, in reminiscence of the defeat of the German Knights by Polish-Lithuanien forces 500 years earlier, which really happened at Tannenberg (spruce mountain). Kind of a late revenge by letting his victory now scrub out the previous defeat, whenever the name now found mention.

As to the battle itself, the Russian Army had done everything to already defeat itself, long before the first shot was fired.

Bad planning, insufficient supply lines, virtually non-existent artillery (big guns having been left behind to protect further inland fortresses), betting on cavalry as the weapon of first choice in face of heavy machine guns and repeating rifle, the Russians practically flunked it pretty much the same as France had done at Sedan, around 40 years earlier.

That Hindenburg was neither the hero nor the genius that Germany subsequently made of him, showed when he had to face real armies later on in the West.Considering the mass of bad judgment shown by the Tsarist generalship, it would probably have taken a miracle for the Russians to even find Berlin
:lol:
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Max Huffman planned the Battle of Tannenburg, Paul von Hindenburg got the credit. When Hoffman
took visitors to the field of Tannenburg he would tell them, ‘This is where the Field Marshall slept
before the battle, here is where he slept after the battle & here is where he slept during the battle.
(Guns of August, Barbara Tuchman 1962)
 
slick said:
Max Huffman planned the Battle of Tannenburg, Paul von Hindenburg got the credit. When Hoffman
took visitors to the field of Tannenburg he would tell them, ‘This is where the Field Marshall slept
before the battle, here is where he slept after the battle & here is where he slept during the battle.
(Guns of August, Barbara Tuchman 1962)
Click to expand...
Sums him up nicely.
 
Some people blame General Hindenburg's advanced age for his disastrous decision to appoint Herr Hitler.

Maybe Dem voters should consider the age question when they vote on Super Tuesday.
 
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